It seems pretty good for someone like operative Luke. The ability to deflect twice per turn is solid for such an expensive unit that can be focused on pretty heavily.

Scratch that. It doesn’t work with force reflexes, agile, quick thinking, or take cover. So, I guess it’s very disappointing then...

You'd need to activate early and spend one of your actions for dodges. Two things you really don't want to do with Luke.

Its good once youve engaged in melee though.

You spend one action getting two dodges and the other action attacking.

It can also help free up another force power since you dont have to use force reflexes.

In the case of operative vader that could mean being able to refresh force choke every turn with master of the force 1 instead of having to refresh force reflexes (you generally want 2 dodges on operative vader because hes such a pansy). And since you dont have to staple reflexes to him anymore you can give operative Vader a different force power like fear or force guidance or force barrier (great if you took royal guards with him).

Although taking off/def stance instead of endurance could present some challenges for operative vader. hopefully spur gets changed in the upcoming rules update so its less taxing on Vader.

But I generally like the idea that operative vader can maybe free up a force slot by taking off/def stance. It gives him more options.

I do wish commander vader had a training slot though.

I really don't think it's a good card for really any Jedi characters. They pretty rarely aim or dodge, but usually rely on other card effects to give them the tokens they need (Force Reflexes, Hunter, Offensive Push, etc). Of the two, I find that I'll actually aim more than dodge, but not enough for it to be worth not being able to spend dodges.

I think it'll potentially be fantastic on Anakin with Exemplar. Two dodges/aims a turn for your clones or anyone else at range 1-2 is crazy good, maybe not as efficient at keeping things alive as Obi-Wan but definitely more versatile.

Ah. It doesn’t work with force reflexes then. Bummer.

1 minute ago, yoink101 said:

Doesn’t anyone use force reflexes? Or does it not work with that?

It doesn't. Reflexes isn't a dodge action, just the token. Defensive Stance requires it to be an action

16 minutes ago, thepopemobile100 said:

It doesn't. Reflexes isn't a dodge action, just the token. Defensive Stance requires it to be an action

Lame.

8 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I really don't think it's a good card for really any Jedi characters. They pretty rarely aim or dodge, but usually rely on other card effects to give them the tokens they need (Force Reflexes, Hunter, Offensive Push, etc). Of the two, I find that I'll actually aim more than dodge, but not enough for it to be worth not being able to spend dodges.

i take dodge actions with vader after he gets into melee. if you dont he dies. theres also not a whole lot else he can spend his second action on once hes in melee. so I think off/def stance is definitely worth considering on operative vader since I take dodge actions with him anyway.

Besides the whole reason most jedi characters dont aim or dodge is because its not worth it for one token. When you get two tokens instead of one token it upsets the old dynamic. Thats the point of the card: to make taking aim and dodge actions more worthwhile for jedi.

I think off/def stance is very good for its low points cost. It helps break up the monotony of always have to take force reflexes. That was boring.

1 hour ago, yoink101 said:

Lame.

If it did work like that it would be absurdly good. Any force user eligible to take Force Reflexes and Defensive Stance would have to take them or be operating at a significant handicap.

55 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I think off/def stance is very good for its low points cost. It helps break up the monotony of always have to take force reflexes. That was boring.

I agree entirely. Force Users need dodge tokens, that's just how they work mechanically in Legion. Having a second upgrade many of them can use to make their dodge game better is great.

30 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

If it did work like that it would be absurdly good. Any force user eligible to take Force Reflexes and Defensive Stance would have to take them or be operating at a significant handicap.

It would be awesome! But it would also be reducing offensive output from stuff like tenacity or hunter. Two dodge tokens is going to reduce incoming damage by 1-2 extra in most cases, only if the model is being attacked more than once in a round.

1 minute ago, yoink101 said:

It would be awesome! But it would also be reducing offensive output from stuff like tenacity or hunter. Two dodge tokens is going to reduce incoming damage by 1-2 extra in most cases, only if the model is being attacked more than once in a round.

Dodge tokens activate Deflect, and will mostly likely stop more than one wound from going through, as well as possibly damaging the enemy. Trust me, it would be too awesome to be good for the game. Most Force users have decent enough offensive output without aims, and if they really did need them they could just flip the card at the beginning of their activation.

Dodge tokens are way better for jedi than tenacity or hunter. Dodge tokens are what keep jedi alive. Without dodges even a basic trooper units can wear your jedi down 1 wound at time.

I wonder if it will go good on Obi-wan since with all his guardian stuff extra dodges would be amazingly helpful to the rest of his army. Paired with force reflexes he can get 3 dodges a turn to keep models alive with guardian. Ani and Obi will see some use of this card but i cant see many other units taking it often

1 hour ago, arnoldrew said:

Dodge tokens activate Deflect, and will mostly likely stop more than one wound from going through, as well as possibly damaging the enemy. Trust me, it would be too awesome to be good for the game. Most Force users have decent enough offensive output without aims, and if they really did need them they could just flip the card at the beginning of their activation.

Deflect only stops 1 in 6 hits. So, it’s not adding an obscene amount to defense. If it worked on 40-60 units, I’d say it would be way too good. On a 160+ point guy that you’re adding another 15 points to use, I don’t know.

1 hour ago, yoink101 said:

Deflect only stops 1 in 6 hits. So, it’s not adding an obscene amount to defense. If it worked on 40-60 units, I’d say it would be way too good. On a 160+ point guy that you’re adding another 15 points to use, I don’t know.

It stops 1/6 hits, yes. But it also stops 1/3 of wounds. A 3+ save raises the effective wounds by 50% over a 4+ save (e.g. a 6 wound unit with 4+ save has 12 effective wounds, with 3+ save it's 18). On top of the auto cancel. Plus it lets your opponents rethink shooting at them with expensive units like Deathtroopers or Mandos.

That is big.

The only two units Defensive/Offensive Stance is good on are Obi and Ani, and only during the early rounds when they’re not in combat and they’re either sharing their tokens, or protecting against hits. I don’t think it’s even good to use for them when they get into combat in later rounds, because you can’t spend dodge tokens if you use Offensive Stance and can’t use Aims if you use Defensive Stance.

I think the card has too many negatives cause you can’t spend the opposing token if you use the card’s ability, and it’s not a free action, you still need to take an Aim or Dodge action. Maybe there will be a less combat type Jedi in the future that it will be good on, a Jedi that is more support and can stay out of combat, but for now, I don’t see this card being used competitively in lieu of Tenacity or even Offensive Push.

I wish the card was more like, “Gain a free Dodge if you do an Aim action” or “Gain a free Aim if you do a dodge action.” And for each, “you can’t do an Aim action if you did a dodge action, and you can’t do a dodge action if you did an Aim action.“ That would be good for combat.

It’s a shame, cause Force Barrier is kind of in the same spot as Defensive/Offensive Stance. Great for support, but not helpful for that unit’s direct combat. I’m still holding out hope to eventually get Force Speed or Deflect Energy or some kind of Force power that helps keep those Jedi from dying from a blaster overdose, but balance is going to be hard for those kinds of cards cause it could make Jedi OP.

22 hours ago, yoink101 said:

Deflect only stops 1 in 6 hits. So, it’s not adding an obscene amount to defense. If it worked on 40-60 units, I’d say it would be way too good. On a 160+ point guy that you’re adding another 15 points to use, I don’t know.

Deflect gives you defensive surge.

Normally you would take X*(1/2) wounds (X = number of hits)

With dodge+deflect you take (X-Y)*(1/3) wounds (Y = dodge tokens used)

So say you take 6 hits. With just the red save you take 3 wounds. With 1 dodge token+deflect you take 1.66 wounds. Almost half the number of wounds.

You also get the bonus of a 1/6 chance of deflecting a ranged attack back at the attacker.

20 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

The only two units Defensive/Offensive Stance is good on are Obi and Ani, and only during the early rounds when they’re not in combat and they’re either sharing their tokens, or protecting against hits. I don’t think it’s even good to use for them when they get into combat in later rounds, because you can’t spend dodge tokens if you use Offensive Stance and can’t use Aims if you use Defensive Stance.

Actually its good on any jedi with a training slot.

Because once you get into melee youre going to do an attack action and a dodge action every turn. Getting 2 dodge tokens is twice as good as getting 1 dodge token.

Dodge tokens keep jedi alive more than anything else. Even taking force reflexes + defensive stance to get 3 dodges a turn wont be unheard of to keep characters like Operative Vader alive. Or if you take royal guard youll probably take force barrier instead of force reflexes to protect the royal guard while they take hits for vader.

And jedi almost never take aim actions because they need dodge tokens way more. Aim tokens dont keep your expensive unit alive. Dodge tokens do.

Offensive/Defensive stance will be stapled to any jedi with a training slot. Theres no reason not to take it since the other training upgrades are all worse.

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It’s a shame, cause Force Barrier is kind of in the same spot as Defensive/Offensive Stance. Great for support, but not helpful for that unit’s direct combat.

Defensive Stance absolutely helps a unit's direct combat. Because you take dodge actions once youre in melee and 2 dodge tokens are better than 1 dodge token.

And while Force Barrier is primarily a support ability that doesnt mean it cant indirectly contribute to a unit's combat effectiveness.

Vader with Royal Guard for example. Vader uses Barrier on the Royal Guard if they get shot. Royal Guard use Guardian on Vader if he gets shot. The longer you keep the Royal Guard alive the more wounds they can soak for Vader.

The more wounds you preserve on Vader the more effective he will be when he finally gets into melee. Dealing with an undamaged Vader in melee is far more difficult than dealing with a half-dead Vader in melee. Also any surviving Royal Guards in the melee alongside Vader increase his chances of staying alive even more because Royal Guards arnt slouches in melee.

Defensive stance and force barrier both give operative Vader options he never had before. If Operative Vader gets a nice buff in the rules update he could become a thing. At the very least, they need to change spur to last the entire activation so he isnt as dependent on endurance and can afford to take defensive stance. Or just give him a second training slot that would be fine too. OP vader could use a survivability bump as well because hes way too much of a pansy with only 6 wounds.

9 hours ago, Khobai said:

Because once you get into melee youre going to do an attack action and a dodge action every turn. Getting 2 dodge tokens is twice as good as getting 1 dodge token.

That is very rarely true.

The safest location for a Jedi is in melee with activated units (and no active force push in the vicinity).

So what Jedi in melee mostly do is to wait until units around have activated, do force shannanigans (mostly force push and command card stuff) that disrupts the enemy and helps the objective. There is rarely room for a dodge action that's why command cards that give you a dodge at the start are gold. They keep you protected before you activate. After you activate you should be in a safe spot. Otherwise you are probably dead or at least in a terrible position. The extra dodge won't save you.

4 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

That is very rarely true.

The safest location for a Jedi is in melee with activated units (and no active force push in the vicinity).

So what Jedi in melee mostly do is to wait until units around have activated, do force shannanigans (mostly force push and command card stuff) that disrupts the enemy and helps the objective. There is rarely room for a dodge action that's why command cards that give you a dodge at the start are gold. They keep you protected before you activate. After you activate you should be in a safe spot. Otherwise you are probably dead or at least in a terrible position. The extra dodge won't save you.

Youre contradicting yourself.

If the safest place for a jedi is in melee, and once youre engaged in melee you cant take a move action anyway, then what are you spending your second action on? The best actions to take when youre locked in melee are an attack action and a dodge action. Youre 100% wrong that there isnt room for a dodge action. Of course there is. For example if my Vader starts a turn engaged in melee I will almost always do an attack action, a dodge action, and then force pull another unit into the melee if I can and force reflexes if I cant (having made the decision which power to refresh on the previous turn). Thats standard Vader play.

Youve also completely forgotten about keywords like relentless and charge which make it possible to move, attack, and take a dodge action. I do this with Luke all the time. And Luke getting 2 dodges instead of 1 dodge from defensive stance makes it that much better. I even do it with Operative Vader sometimes if a unit withdraws from melee with OP Vader then I activate him, spur and move him back into melee, use relentless to attack, use force pull or force reflexes, then take a dodge action with his second action.

Also you dont always want to wait until the unit youre engaged with has activated to activate your jedi. There are plenty of situations where you want your jedi to go first. It very much depends on the situation. For example if youre only engaged with one unit, and youre afraid that unit will withdraw and your jedi will get shot up, you might want your jedi to go first so you can force pull a second unit into the melee. Or if you want to kill the unit youre engaged with then move into another unit before they get a chance to move away. Again it all depends on the situation. You cant always say whether going first or last is best because situations vary.

And of course command cards that give dodge tokens are good. Because dodge tokens keep your jedi alive. force reflexes and defensive stance are also good for the same reasons. The more dodge tokens your jedi has the longer they will live. Also I believe ive been very adamant about using guardian units like Royal Guard to protect your jedi. The combination of multiple dodge tokens and guardian is very powerful. Especially with force barrier being thrown in the mix. I would never even contemplate playing OP Vader without Royal Guard because hes so wussy.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

Youre contradicting yourself.

I sense a lack of creativity on your side 😉 . But I'll gladly explain:

The easiest way to get out of melee is killing the unit you are engaged with. The second action could then be moving in the direction where an activated unit is and pushing it into melee. They usually aren't conveniently ending their activation in move 1 distance.

Then there is the option of force pushing the unit in melee away. Now you can double move into melee with an activated unit and usually whacking it (don't forget to leave at least one mini alive! Pierce is optional).

Vader has a Command card to remove a unit, force choke can sometimes do the trick, operative Luke has disengage, ... The list goes on.

I'm not saying taking a dodge action is never viable. It's just not the best use of actions most of the time.

In my experience (I'm playing the game since day one, mostly Commander Luke ... who can't take defensive stance anyhow) an early activated Jedi is a dead Jedi most of the times. Even with 2 dodges. If the unit in contact is not activated yet it can withdraw. The opponent has the rest of the turn to strip the dodges and focus him down. And even if that doesn't kill him, he will be in the open without dodges at the start of the next turn forcing you to activate him early again.

On the contrary, youre the one thats lacking creativity if youre so close minded you cant envision opportunities to use upgrades like defensive stance.

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an early activated Jedi is a dead Jedi most of the times.

youre also lacking creativity if you cant think of any situations where your jedi might need to activate first.

theres definitely reasons to go first. And sometimes a jedi that isnt activated early is a dead jedi. again it depends on the board state. its important to stay flexible at all times and not lock yourself into a rigid way of thinking like "I should always activate my jedi last".

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The easiest way to get out of melee is killing the unit you are engaged with. The second action could then be moving in the direction where an activated unit is and pushing it into melee. They usually aren't conveniently ending their activation in move 1 distance.

but if you never activate your jedi first, theres a good chance that second unit will activate before your jedi does and move out of range of your jedi, specifically so you cant do what youre saying.

again youre contradicting yourself.

thats one of the situations where activating your jedi first is advantageous. so you can kill the unit youre currently engaged with and move into a second unit before it gets the chance to move away.

again whether or not you activate your jedi first or last varies depending on the situation. similarly there are always opportunities to use dodge actions, especially with characters that have charge or relentless.

defensive stance will absolutely be a staple upgrade for jedi with training slots, mainly because the other training upgrades arnt very good.

@JediPartisan I think a "pure" support Jedi is unlikely, primarily because lightsabers are such effective weapons. Even before factoring in the point cost for the support keywords (Exemplar, Guardian, etc), the baseline Jedi stuff (5-6 die lightsaber attack with some mixture of Critical, Pierce, and Impact, some "version" of Deflect, red defence die, etc) adds a hefty price tag to the character, and makes them fairly well suited to melee innately.

13 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@JediPartisan I think a "pure" support Jedi is unlikely, primarily because lightsabers are such effective weapons. Even before factoring in the point cost for the support keywords (Exemplar, Guardian, etc), the baseline Jedi stuff (5-6 die lightsaber attack with some mixture of Critical, Pierce, and Impact, some "version" of Deflect, red defence die, etc) adds a hefty price tag to the character, and makes them fairly well suited to melee innately.

In the case of anakin you can fire support his saber throw. A firesupported saber throw is way more devastating than his melee.

I definitely think anakin can go full support for that reason.

I mean whats better? 5 red dice with pierce 3 that risks anakin in melee? or 5 red dice and 5 black dice (or 2 red, 5 black, 6 white depending) with pierce 3 that keeps anakin out of melee and can even keep him out of LoS if he uses his second action to move back behind terrain?

fire support is a no brainer with anakin. he should rarely be in melee IMO.

Anakin doesnt have the same constrictions that other jedi do. Likely by design because I think FFG is trying to make jedi more interesting than just being melee kamikaziers.

It would be good if you got something for spending dodges, taking a dodge action is rarely a good thing as you rather double move with your jedi characters and use force reflexes for the extra dodge or command cards.