11 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

Check out his command cards. They give him Relentless, Surge:crit, Exemplar, Reliable 2, Master of the Force 1, and Outmaneuver permanently. you shore up whichever weakness you need to at the moment with the appropriate command card.

Yeah, I know, but you may be forced into playing a certain card earlier or later then you want to get the desired trait instead of the activation control that you need.

I know they're trying to keep his "Flawed" theme going, but it just makes me want OBIWAN for 15pts more, who is much more predictable and easier to work with.

I just wonder if they're going to bake all this into all the new characters (Maul, Lando, Kallus) or just keep it on Anakin.

This will be one that people buy for the cards, but probably doesn't make it out on the table that much. Especially after the points drop on earlier units.

9 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

I think you're making an incredible leap in logic there. The RRG entry for "Permanent" is fully titled "Permanent (Command Keywords), indicating that the keywords are permanent, not the extra text. I have not heard any talk about the suppression requirements hanging around turn after turn before now. Unless they specifically errata the RRG to cover ALL text, I wouldn't take that as a definite, 100% correct interpretation of the rules.

No, that indicates it is a keyword on Command cards. That is just what type of keyword it is, and that carries through to how it is used in the entire rest of the RRG. The full text of the keyword makes it clear how it works.

Some command cards have the permanent keyword. Unlike
ordinary command cards, these cards are not discarded from
play during the End Phase and their effects persist as long as the
are in play

I HAVE heard talk of it, since the minute he was revealed. If it was not meant to work that way, they would have to change the above entry, since it clearly supports that interpretation.

3 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

No, that indicates it is a keyword on Command cards. That is just what type of keyword it is, and that carries through to how it is used in the entire rest of the RRG. The full text of the keyword makes it clear how it works.

Some command cards have the permanent keyword. Unlike
ordinary command cards, these cards are not discarded from
play during the End Phase and their effects persist as long as the
are in play

I HAVE heard talk of it, since the minute he was revealed. If it was not meant to work that way, they would have to change the above entry, since it clearly supports that interpretation.

Yeah, I changed the original post because I caught that. I'll send 'em an email, and see what I hear back. I very, very much doubt it was intended to work like that, as it will pretty much guarantee that Anakin goes from being good to being unplayable.

28 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Yeah, I changed the original post because I caught that. I'll send 'em an email, and see what I hear back. I very, very much doubt it was intended to work like that, as it will pretty much guarantee that Anakin goes from being good to being unplayable.

I think he's fine if it works that way. Honestly, it's so clear that that's how it works, that if they didn't intend for it to be that way it's probably the most incompetent thing they've ever done in terms of not knowing their own rules, and they've made some boners in the past.

edit: I just read the preview article again, and it's clear that the suppression effects are permanent. Honestly, people are talking as if he's going to be getting 3 suppression every round, which will only happen if the person playing him is very, very terrible at Legion.

1 minute ago, arnoldrew said:

I think he's fine if it works that way. Honestly, it's so clear that that's how it works, that if they didn't intend for it to be that way it's probably the most incompetent thing they've ever done in terms of not knowing their own rules, and they've made some boners in the past.

I very much disagree. Anakin is Meh without his command cards. This thread is about how Operative Vader, one of the worst units in the game, is better than him without the cards. Adding weaknesses to necessary cards is acceptable if you can play around them. Making it so you simply CANT plan around them all because its something that sticks around every single turn is stupid. Congrats FFG for screwing the pooch yet again, and making a character I was legitimately excited for something that I'll only rarely consider.

Yeah, I always thought the suppression flaws stuck around. If he gets stuck out in the open, he'll get pasted and be useless, or another jedi with Fear or Mind trick or Bossk or whatever.

That's why I'm having a hard time getting excited about him as well. I don't know if Operative Vader is better or worse, but either way, I probably won't be playing either. Obiwan is so much better for 15pts more.

I'm actually kind of worried about what they're going to do with Maul. I think they overdid the flaw tricks and overthought it or got too cute. Someone else (OP maybe) said Anakin feels overcosted straight out of the box, like the Dewback, I may have to agree. With all these flaws, he probably should have cost 140pts.

There maybe something wrong with the people who make up the points. They seem to really get things off. If the Alex Davy interview is correct, almost 70% of the units in the game will have some sort of errata by November to the unit itself or the weapon upgrades, with probably more to come.

I completely understand the frustration of the cards because why print a cost on them at all, if they are all going to be changed constantly or be plain wrong before released.

I dont get it. Why is everyone freaking out like an extra suppression here an extra suppression there is a big enough deal to make Anakin nearly unplayable. If you get endurance, I can't see it being that big of an issue on Anakin. If in some train wreck, you do end up with Anakin loaded down with suppression, thats what Padme's one pip is for. (cause you have to get Padme with Anakin...you just have to 😜 ) she can pull off all of his suppression because Padme losing an action isn't nearly as bad as Anakin losing one and thus generate two dodge tokens for Anakin to use that round. Just play Anakin well and he's going to be an incredibly powerful unit.

Instead of comparing him to operative Vader, I'd compare him to Commander Luke, an actually good unit. They both have speed 2, jump, immune pierce, same defense, same health, and same suppression. The extra things Luke has are: starting with a surge to crit, starting with charge, starting with a ranged attack, an extra equipment slot, DOESNT have a weakness, and some bad*** command cards. Anakin has: significantly better version of deflect, can include dark side upgrades, a SIGNIFICANTLY better attack, 2 training slots, and thats not even counting command cards. With his command card keywords, he gets relentless which is way better than charge if you get saber throw, Outmaneuver which is nice, MOTF which is so so good, that surge to crit can trigger, and can support his army with reliable 2 and exemplar. IMO its no competition. Anakin wins this out any day. Id say the only things Luke has as an upper hand over Anakin are the lack of a weakness card, and his hyper effective command cards like I am a Jedi and Son of Skywalker. Don't think that's enough though to beat out the fact that Anakin can actually use his force upgrades with MOTF, his ability to wreck house on any unit with a way better attack, and being able to support his army.

We all can have our opinions on units and what we value based upon our playstyle and even regional playstyles but I totally disagree with the original analysis. I would hate for a player who wants to get into this game due to Anakin to see this analysis in fact.

Anakin is one of the best costed Jedi's they have ever made. Effectively you only have to pay half price for key words because they are in his command cards and that cost savings versus say Obi who is 15 points more expensive will let you more easily fit in characters like Padme who perfectly fits with him. Once he makes it into melee he wrecks anything he can attack, the only issue I have with him has nothing to do with Anakin and more is an issue with the current clone ball Meta and fitting him into that. As for comparing him to Operative Vader it isn't even close.

1. Operative Vader is an operative which means he doesn't just cost 170 points, he costs 170 plus a commander. This has always been his biggest drawback and if you want to compare him to Anakin you may want to consider you are either taking a non synergistic generic commander or taking a stronger commander as losing out on activations. This is just the start of his issues.

2. If you don't think a speed one move without jump even with Spur is bad, go put Operative Vader behind some vision blocking cover versus say Anakin. Then have Anakin jump out one single move and you will see it takes both of Vader's moves with Spur to catch up. Now try this with difficult terrain, barricades, etc. It literally doesn't matter that Vader has relentless and an amazing attack because it is brutally hard to make up his points with his movement. Anakin has the Flawed keyword on his card but Vader should have it tattooed on his head.

3. Vader is way more likely to have significant suppression than Anakin and so far the Imps don't have a really good way to dump suppression. Remember Operative Vader is 1 suppression per Spur and Spur counts for exactly 1 move.

4. Djem So Mastery works in melee as well as against ranged attacks. It is signifcantly better than deflect. The average Jedi will usually get 1-2 deflects in a match.

5. Oh no, Anakin doesn't surge to defend or hit, oh wait his 3 pip automatically fixes that and let's him synergize with his army by giving him 2 surge tokens a turn.

6. Let's also be real Vader has terrible gadgety command cards where you are often trying to force the issue on your opponent and assuming your opponent can't play at least somewhat tactically. Commander Vader for the longest time was considered to have the worst command cards in the game and now by combing Operative and Commander Vader command cards you get somewhat an ok command hand. If you compare Vader to Anakin, Anakin for sure has the better 3 pip, Vader has the better 2 pip barely (because Anakin has Djem So Mastery he basically does Vader's 2 pip every turn in some ways) and Vader has the better one pip but once again barely. Anakin has the flawed keyword on his character card but Vader's command cards should have that written in sharpie.

I could go on but whether Anakin succeeds or not on his excellent card but upon does the Clone Ball Meta get nerfed at all and does Padme synergize with him as much as I think she will.

Personally I think Anakin is one of if not the strongest force user in the game once all his command cards have been played. Sure he has the flaw card and the downsides on his command cards but I think if someone where to take the time to play him and practice with him and his cards he will be a super effective unit. I think the only time he wont be good is in the hands of someone who hasnt practiced with him or is unwilling to change up there strategies to better suit his play style.

I personally don't think his downsides are all that bad if u know what your doing/have a plan for him

If you play Anakin without a plan, he's going to get wrecked.

If you play Anakin strategically, he's going to wreck your opponent.

he definitely gains the suppression every turn. thats why he needs to take endurance.

I dont think its as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. at least 2 of the 3 requirements to not gain suppression are fairly easy to achieve every turn.

Like ive been saying all along. Anakin should be played like a support commander with saber throw. Thats the best way to play him to avoid suppression issues.

give him endurance and off/def stance for his training slots

give him saber throw and your choice of guidance/barrier for his force slots

and profit off him giving out lots of tokens each turn with exemplar while ducking in and out from behind cover with a very nasty saber throw. And only commit him into melee when its absolutely safe to do so or when you can trade up by taking out an expensive commander like Dooku.

Anakin is not a melee character first. hes a support character first with a melee option in his back pocket. Anakin has far more tactical depth than Vader who is sadly relegated to being a one-dimensional kamikaze clown. Vader is the least interesting and dumbest commander/operative in the game by far, he has zero tactical depth, and everything he does is 100% predictable and predetermined before he even does it. Anakin has way more flexibility and depth than Vader.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

he definitely gains the suppression every turn. thats why he needs to take endurance.

I dont think its as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. at least 2 of the 3 requirements to not gain suppression are fairly easy to achieve every turn.

...

I also think that suppression will be manageable (even without endurance), but I’d say there is definitely more than one way to go with him. Personally I would still prefer Saber Throw and Force Push over any other combination.

Fire Support from clones, Saber Throw and Relentless will definitely be a huge deal, even against non-vehicle lists.

All Commanders and Operatives that give him dodge token at the start of the activation phase are great for him. His uber deflect is really good in melee and will be a real deterrent for almost all ranged damage dealers. Padme for example gets dodge tokens with all of her command cards, can share them with exemplar and can strip a lot of suppression with her one-pip.

Can Rex improve the range of Saber Throw with his two-pip by the way?

39 minutes ago, M.Mustermann said:

Can Rex improve the range of Saber Throw with his two-pip by the way?

I don't see why not. It only requires that it be a friendly trooper unit with a face-up order token.

50 minutes ago, M.Mustermann said:

Can Rex improve the range of Saber Throw with his two-pip by the way?

Unfortunately not, the weapon's range is still melee (otherwise you couldn't use Saber Throw with it). You just get to make an attack using half its dice at range 1-2.

1 hour ago, M.Mustermann said:

I also think that suppression will be manageable (even without endurance), but I’d say there is definitely more than one way to go with him. Personally I would still prefer Saber Throw and Force Push over any other combination.

Fire Support from clones, Saber Throw and Relentless will definitely be a huge deal, even against non-vehicle lists.

All Commanders and Operatives that give him dodge token at the start of the activation phase are great for him. His uber deflect is really good in melee and will be a real deterrent for almost all ranged damage dealers. Padme for example gets dodge tokens with all of her command cards, can share them with exemplar and can strip a lot of suppression with her one-pip.

Can Rex improve the range of Saber Throw with his two-pip by the way?

why force push? with speed 2 and relentless he doesnt need force push.

force push is kindve wasted on him because its use is only situational. youre better off with guidance/barrier because he can make use of those every turn of the game.

Just now, Khobai said:

why force push? with speed 2 and relentless he doesnt need force push.

force push is kindve wasted on him because its situational. youre better off with guidance/barrier because he can make use of it every turn of the game.

Force Push has a long history of being one of the best upgrades in the game when used on Commander Luke, who is also Speed 2 with Charge. It is far from a waste.

And force push makes sense on luke because luke can only do melee. same with vader. you use force push on those characters because literally all they can do is kamikaze into melee and they do nothing else productive. those characters also tyically take force reflexes to help them stay alive which is hard for anakin to do since he only has two force power slots and one is automatically taken up by saber throw.

force push doesnt make sense on anakin because anakin can do other things besides just kamikaziing himself into melee.

its definitely wasted on anakin. force guidance or force barrier are both way better on anakin since they make him a better support character. Anakin can hand out tons of tokens with guidance and exemplar. And force barrier is just sick in GAR because clones are already hard to kill.

11 minutes ago, Khobai said:

And force push makes sense on luke because luke can only do melee. same with vader. you use force push on those characters because literally all they can do is kamikaze into melee and they do nothing else productive. those characters also tyically take force reflexes to help them stay alive which is hard for anakin to do since he only has two force power slots and one is automatically taken up by saber throw.

force push doesnt make sense on anakin because anakin can do other things besides melee.

its definitely wasted on anakin. force guidance or force barrier are both way better on anakin since they make him a better support character.

Eh, they're probably better most of the time in his specific case (not entirely sold on Guidance, you only need so many surge tokens). I still think it can be a legitimate choice.

5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

And force push makes sense on luke because luke can only do melee. same with vader. you use force push on those characters because literally all they can do is kamikaze into melee and they do nothing else productive.

force push doesnt make sense on anakin because anakin can do other things besides melee.

its definitely wasted on anakin. force guidance or force barrier are both way better on anakin since they make him a better support character.

Force push is stapled to every force user other than palp because it is the best upgrade they could possibly take. It's uses are varied, like pulling units into you who have already activated too keep you safe from enemy fire, or to throw units off objectives to win you games. It is never wasted on any force user and is definitely one of the best upgrades you could take in the game.

16 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

Force push is stapled to every force user other than palp because it is the best upgrade they could possibly take. It's uses are varied, like pulling units into you who have already activated too keep you safe from enemy fire, or to throw units off objectives to win you games. It is never wasted on any force user and is definitely one of the best upgrades you could take in the game.

And Anakin should actually be played more like Palpatine than other force users. Hes a support character with a strong 1-2 ranged attack (saber throw). And mostly wants to stay out of direct combat except for turns where he can deliver a crippling blow.

Most other force users are entirely selfish and unable to support their armies and amount to little more than yolo solos that have to charge into melee. thats why they take force push. because they cant perform other roles besides charging into melee.

Force push is great when all you can do is charge into melee and drag as many units into melee with you to keep them from withdrawing. But Anakin doesnt have to do that. Like palpatine, Anakin can hang back and provide tremendous support for his army. He is inherently different from luke, dooku, or vader in that regard. His ideal playstyle is more similar to palpatines than any other force user.

If all youre doing is charging anakin into melee ASAP youre wasting half his abilities. His capacity for supporting his army shouldnt be underestimated since he can easily give out 6-8 tokens a turn with exemplar which is pretty sick when you think about it. Hes the best token factory in the game.

1 minute ago, Khobai said:

Anakin plays more like palpatine than other force users. Hes a support character.

Most other force users are selfish and unable to support their armies and amount to little more than yolo solos that charge into melee.

You do not know how Anakin plays because you have not played with him yet. All force users main purpose is to control specific areas of the board because of their strong attacks and force powers, none of them are support characters. They exert pressure on objectives by moving up to objectives and capitalize on using their threat range to punish anything that tries to enter that range. Force push is essential to this style of play and should be stapled to him because this is how he will actually play on the table. If you want to play Anakin as a character that leads from the back you'll find not only is that an ineffective use of his points but that you will actively be punished for this playstyle with what his command cards actually give him and their drawbacks.

Anakin is absolutely a support character.

Why do you think he has exemplar? Why do you think he has reliable 2? why do you think he comes with cards like off/def stance and force barrier?

You think he comes with all those because hes not supposed to use them to support his army? The cards he comes with give you a clue as to how youre supposed to play him.

And whether you realize it or not, every unit in the game exerts pressure on objectives because thats kindve the point of the game. its not some role thats unique to force users. force users arnt even the best at it. most force users arnt even worth their points...

And Ive already explained why force push is not essential on Anakin. Because unlike other force users Anakin can be played as a support character. You are treating him like hes the same as Vader or Luke or Dooku. When hes in fact not the same as them at all. He has more in common with Palpatine. He can generate tons of tokens and hand them out to his army while saber throwing. And Saber throw with pierce 3 and three red dice is very very strong when combined with fire support. Theres absolutely no reason to risk Anakin in melee like you have to do with other force users to earn their points back because theyre unable to support their armies.

gee do I run my 160+ point commander into melee where hes probably going to die. or do I stay behind terrain and throw his pierce 3 saber with 3 red dice and crit to surge firesupported (assuming he can be fire supported, but saber throw is a ranged attack so I dont see why it wouldnt work) by a unit of clones and completely wipe out one of the opponents activations each turn. thats not a hard choice. anakin doesnt need to risk himself in melee to wipe out entire units. So why would you?

There's no reason he can't do both. He's got some of the best defense in the game outside of Mandos come turn 2. Reliable and dodge tokens make him tough. 5 red dice is no slouch in melee esp with P3.

He kind of is like Luke or Vader or Dooku as he has similar if not better defense, the same or better offense and same or better wounds.

I still think saber throw is less risky and more devastating. saber throw + fire support can wipe out an entire unit a turn even with red saves and heavy cover.

Realistically I think the joys of this Anakin is that he is such a dual threat piece, both playstyles are perfectly suitable for his loadout.

Personally, I'm hoping that his presence will encourage a lot more aggressive play from GAR, and push them further forward. I agree that the forcer barrier and exemplar are great upgrades. However, why can he not also utilize his awesome melee, but by having more of the GAR gunline up real close and personal whilst maxing his ability to support the army. Combined with Rex Scout you can suddenly find you have a lot of clones halfway up the board, and Anakin can be up in peoples face scaring them with 5 red melee

That will either be a new exciting dynamic, or an utter disaster