What trigger first between the emergency docking and dead man switch? Both seems to share the same trigger but emergency docking wording is a bit different while also probably being a game state effect

there are a lot of pretty in dept rules surrounding this, but it's actually a lot more simple than it seems.

basically, emergency deployment (yes, deployment, there is no such thing as emergency docking, even though that sounds really cool) is not an ability, it's just a game effect, since it's not described on any card text. deadmans switch, on the other hand, is definitely an ability, a player's ability to be more precise. they share the same timing (after you are destroyed, before you are removed, same thing. there is no clear distinction between the two), but since emergency deployment is a game effect and not a player's ability - and deadmans switch is a player's ability, emergency deployment will always resolve first.

38 minutes ago, meffo said:

there are a lot of pretty in dept rules surrounding this, but it's actually a lot more simple than it seems.

basically, emergency deployment (yes, deployment, there is no such thing as emergency docking, even though that sounds really cool) is not an ability, it's just a game effect, since it's not described on any card text. deadmans switch, on the other hand, is definitely an ability, a player's ability to be more precise. they share the same timing (after you are destroyed, before you are removed, same thing. there is no clear distinction between the two), but since emergency deployment is a game effect and not a player's ability - and deadmans switch is a player's ability, emergency deployment will always resolve first.

They aren't exactly the same timing though. "After you are destroyed" (Deadman's Switch) vs "Before the ship is removed" (Emergency Deploy). Outside of the Engagement Phase you might be correct in having the docked craft deploy before Deadman's Switch is processed (I don't think you are since that would mean Deadman's Switch would do nothing since removing the ship is an "other game effect" with the exact same timing as Deadman's Switch. Ship has to be on the table to ascertain what is at 0-1 of it). Within the Engagement Phase though Deadman's Switch is definitely processed before Emergency Deploy since a destroyed ship is not removed until every ship at the initiative of the ship that destroyed the carrier has engaged even though the carrier still counts as destroyed and Deadman's Switch is processed immediately after the carrier becomes destroyed.

18 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

They aren't exactly the same timing though. "After you are destroyed" (Deadman's Switch) vs "Before the ship is removed" (Emergency Deploy). Outside of the Engagement Phase you might be correct in having the docked craft deploy before Deadman's Switch is processed (I don't think you are since that would mean Deadman's Switch would do nothing since removing the ship is an "other game effect" with the exact same timing as Deadman's Switch. Ship has to be on the table to ascertain what is at 0-1 of it). Within the Engagement Phase though Deadman's Switch is definitely processed before Emergency Deploy since a destroyed ship is not removed until every ship at the initiative of the ship that destroyed the carrier has engaged even though the carrier still counts as destroyed and Deadman's Switch is processed immediately after the carrier becomes destroyed.

you're right. if a ship is destroyed by an attack during the engagement phase, deadman's switch will trigger during the aftermath of that attack, but the ship will not be removed until the end of that initiative step - and that's when emergency deployment will take place. good catch. felt confused for some reason. that explains it.

6 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Ship has to be on the table to ascertain what is at 0-1 of it

This, to me, is enough to qualify DMS as always resolving before emergency deployment..

But.. there is something else.

Quote

After a ship is destroyed in a phase other than the Engagement Phase, it is removed from the game.

To me, im reading the steps as.

- Ship is destroyed

- After a ship is destroyed timing window. (DMS triggers here)

- Before ship is removed timing window. (emergency deployment here)

- Ship is removed from the game

I read being 'destroyed', and being 'removed from game' as different timing windows, thus meaning DMS always happens first. But maybe thats just me?


I thought FFG actually cleared this up, but i guess they didnt.. or i cannot find where they did.

17 hours ago, Lyianx said:

To me, im reading the steps as.

• Ship is destroyed
• After a ship is destroyed timing window. (DMS triggers here)
• Before ship is removed timing window. (emergency deployment here)
• Ship is removed from the game

I read being 'destroyed', and being 'removed from game' as different timing windows, thus meaning DMS always happens first. But maybe thats just me?

I think that is basically how it works... considering the ability queue, it would "build" something like this...

• A ship takes lethal damage (outside of combat). Two effects enter the queue: Ship Destroyed, and Remove from Game.
  • Queue: 1. Ship Destroyed, 2. Remove from Game
• After "Ship Destroyed" resolves, Deadman Switch triggers, enters the queue (since it's triggered, it goes to the front)
  • Queue: 1. Ship Destroyed , 2. Deadman Switch, 3. Remove from Game
• DMS resolves.
  • Queue: 1. Deadman Switch , 2. Remove from Game
• Before "Remove from Game" resolves, Emergency Deploy enters the queue (since it's triggered, it goes to the front)
  • Queue: 1. Emergency Deploy, 2. Remove from Game
• Emergency Deploy resolves
  • Queue: 1. Emergency Deploy , 2. Remove from Game
• Remove from Game resolves
  • Queue: 1. Remove from Game

On 10/19/2020 at 3:39 PM, Lyianx said:

I thought FFG actually cleared this up, but i guess they didnt.. or i cannot find where they did.

It's a fairly recent reversion. The original 2e rules and the current version 1.2.0 separate removal from destruction, but there was a while where the rules actually said something along the lines of 'triggers of "when destroyed" are applied immediately before removing that ship' so it has changed back and forth.

9 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

It's a fairly recent reversion. The original 2e rules and the current version 1.2.0 separate removal from destruction, but there was a while where the rules actually said something along the lines of 'triggers of "when destroyed" are applied immediately before removing that ship' so it has changed back and forth.

it still says that, i just got confused by the comma when i posted. it doesn't say "immediately before removing the ship", but it says "immediately, before removing the ship", which doesn't mean the same thing at all.

It used to say that it occurred immediately before the ship was removed. The comma was added in rules reference 1.1.0 at the start of this year. It was probably one of the most easy to miss changes I've seen that actually had a sizable impact to the game.

On a similar note: does his own DMS trigger Jostero???

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

On a similar note: does his own DMS trigger Jostero???

I think it does, depending on which phase his Deadman's Switch is triggered. Definitely in the Engagement phase since he isn't removed till the end of that init. During the other 4? I don't think so.