Hey cool kids!

I was just wondering if any of you could suggest how to best go about stating up these bad boy daemon engines?

So far I'm drawing a blank as to where to begin, or what to base it on, so and input would be awesome!

They're basically vehicles - If you have the old Apocrypha: Vehicle rules (I don't think they're on the download part of the site anymore, but I could have missed them), I'd start there. If not, you might have to wait for the new version of the vehicle rules, which I believe are in the forthcoming "Into The Storm" supplement for Rogue Trader.

Under Apocrypha, I'd start with an Enormous Walker and go from there.

(Sorry for the epic dead thread necromancy..)

Okay, so being a sadist I finally got round to ' making ' a defiler.. So I just wondered what you kids thought of it, and where it could possibly do with any improvement:

Chaos Defiler
Rawr!! I eat you!!

Type: Walker
Size: Enormous
Armour: Hull 28, Rear 20
Skills: Awareness (Per), Psyniscience (Per)
Talents: Berserker Charge, Furious Assault, Swift Attack, Lightning Attack
Traits: Daemonic, Dark Sight, Fear 3 (Horrifying), From Beyond
Daemonic Presence : All creatures within 20 metres take a -10 penalty to Willpower Tests.
Narrative Speed: 15 kph/25 kph
Combat Speed: 3/9/18/24/36
Handling Modifier: –
Armaments: Two Dreadnought Close-Combat Weapons (2d10+30R; Pen 8), Battle Cannon (800; S/–/–; 7d10 I; Pen 10; Clp 1; Rld 2Full; Blast 10), Reaper autocannon (300m; S/4/10; Pen 4; Clp 40; Rld 2Full), Twin-linked Flamer (30m; S/–/–; 2d10+4 E; Pen 4; Clp 10; 2Full; Flame, Twin-Linked)
Crew: 1 (Driver) Passengers: 0
Access Points: –
Special: The Chaos Defiler has its own WS, BS, Int, Per and WP scores. Use WS 65, BS 50, Int 14, Per 45, WP 42

The Armor, WS and BS all seem high.

Do you realize that hitting with the CCW will bring any space marine, that has been stated in Deathwatch, to 0 wounds or less with a roll of two 1’s on the damage dic, and that an average damage roll will kill on the crit chart?

If memory serves, the Tabletop Defiler has WS and BS of 3, so having 65 and 50 in DH seems really excessive. Though if you're just trying to intimidate your players and don't actually intend for them to fight it, go ahead.

True, very true... Hows about Hull 24, Rear 18 (Which is in-line with dreadnaught in Tyranus Conclave's Adeptus Astartes supliment-thing - Which TT wise has the same armour).... And maybe WS 45, BS 30

Maybe 2d10+18, Pen 9 for damage... Its still pretty high, but its no different that giving something with S 60, Unnatural Strength and arming them with a power fist.... Or is this still way off do you think?

I dunno, I'd say keep the damage high.

In Tabletop the Dreadnought CCWs are S 10 and ignore armor. And if you think about it, it's a massive mechanical claw crashing down on your head with tremendous power. If that thing were to catch you, you'd be dead.

I'd say make his WS to around 30 or so and maybe give a small bonus to dodging his attacks, as their massive size make them a bit slower.

Either way though, it'd be a massive incentive to avoid him in close combat at all costs. Force them to surround and attack the rear armor.

Armour levels in the apocrypha are way too low on the vehicles having fiddled and play testing them, basically, grap the TT equivalent (ie: 12 in this case) and multiply by 3, then add about +/- 5-10pts extra and you're roughly where you should be. (basically, not killing them with autogun fire! You need a power weapon, krak missile or heavy weapon... or just run away and hope someone comes up with a better plan)

Defiler I'd stat up something along the lines of-

"I call the big one Bitey"

WS- 35 BS-35 Str Bonus 6 Initiative +3 Hull Armour 36 Rear Armour 30

Weight 60 tonnes, Height 6.9m Width 6.4m Length 6.6m (Size Enormous: +20 to hit it)

Movement- 25km/h to 40km/h Combat Speed 5/14/28/42/56

Armaments

Twin Linked Autocannon- Range 300m ROF -/4/10 Damage 4D10+5 Pen 4 Magazine (Infinite) (Linked- Additional +10 to-hit)

Battle Cannon- Range 1000m ROF S/-/- Damage 6D10+10 Pen 10 Magazine (Infinate) Blast (10)

Twin Linked Hvy Flamer- Range 30m ROF S/2/- Damage 2D10+4 Pen 4 Magazine (Infinate)

Close combat Claws (x2)- Damage 2D10+8 Pen 6 (not primitive)

Smoke Launcher- Shrouds the machine giving 50% cover for ranged weapons not equipped with a targetter (50% chance of missing outright)

Can swap out the flamers for another Close combat claw (+1 melee attack) or a Havoc Launcher (I guess a 2D10+4 Pen 4 Blast 12 ROF1? ...eww). Can swap out the Autocannons for either Twin Linked Las cannon or Close combat claw (+1 Melee attack) or Twin Linked Heavy Bolters

The Turret can transverse 360degrees, Inclination/Declination of +72degrees and -22degrees

Rules

I'm a Daemonic Machine with Autostabilised traits, which means I'm immune to psychology, poison, disease and just plain naughty so you will have -10 to WP tests in my presence, but because I'm bound in the machine, immune to Warp Instability. A warp weapon, psy attack or force weapon along the lines of anything that busts up daemons or psykers will halve my armour value and make me very sad.

Because I'm autostabilised I can fire on semi or full auto as a half action which makes me very shooty, you should run and hide... because I can fire all those weapons whenever I god emperor **** want in ranged combat, if I fire two though, I may need to stop and think about it and not move.

In melee, you wont get a ganging up bonus, I can smack ******* twice a round with my claws, if you give me more claws and less shootyness, I can Punchercise with (1) one extra attack in melee for each extra claw, they have a 3metre reach because I am big.

All Terrain, just like your fat mommas 4wd aww yeah! I dont care about terrain, water, shopping trolleys and I can park where I want. Because I'm chaos, I also like to park in the handicapped zone and not give a ****.

Fear (3) You better run!

edit- at this point, your PC's should wonder what they've done to deserve this horrible thing turning up...

You might want to reduce the area of that battle cannon blast. Direct translation is 5m and at 10 most people aren't even going to be able to dodge out the way if they are half way to edge when it hits.

Actually, its pretty gentle, as even our old and somewhat antiquated 105mm or 5' HE shell will utterly wreck everything in a 10m radius and a shower of steel dangerous up to 200m. People don't dodge artillery, they hide in a very deep hole and pray!

MKX said:

I would personally the infinite ammo capacity from it, as it has enough weapon systems to wipe an entire party with just 1 clip of ammo for each. I'd also be tempted to all AP from the CCWs and give them the Warp Weapon trait instead, effectively having the same effect against mundanely armoured foes, but giving a little bonus to the more piously armoured Acolytes.

Ultimately this feels "balanced" though. I mean, an inquisitorial retinue in TT is pretty cheap, a lot cheaper than a defiler, so i wouldn't be suprised if it seems like it can take them all down.

Also factor in the encounter itself for balance. If the defiler assaults the acolytes whilst they are crossing a desert unaided then yeah, they'll likely die or at least suffer critical injuries in the ensuing fight. On the other hand if they are accosted whilst traversing a hive city and have heavy cover to take advantage of and possibly heavy weapon emplacements and armed vehicles to utilise, then it would be far from clear cut.

Meeting one of those things inside a hive is probably the most survivable situation : depending on where yo uare th thing's motion can get severly constrained and there's plenty of cover. If I had to absolutely take it down immediately, anti-vehicle weapons are about the only sensible option. A decent demolition skills is the second best : some heavy girders on the damned thing to pin it down, then satchel-charge it back to the warp where it belongs. Ar blow a floor section to trap it into a basement then enough exploives to get the job done.

Kasatka said:

The actual Trait of being a "Daemon Engine" or "Possessed Machine" would mean that it doesn't run on fuel, power or have an ammunition limit. That's just from various sources over the years touching lightly on the subject of these things, there is nothing logical or even sensical about a chaos war machine. Sometimes they bleed, the hull is full of pus, smell pretty, poop rainbows... this also eliminates the metaphorical problem of who you get to go over to the machine with a jerry can of panda tears to fill it up and just where you load the hello kitty merchandise into the guns so that it can continue to pour hate and scorn on your enemies.

As for skill, you could essentially have your Daemon Engine function much the same ways in terms of skill level that a bound or unbound Daemon Host has in terms of punching and shooting things. Start off at about 70 to 75 WS and BS, knock off about 10pts for every level its bound all the way down to a -40 at 4 levels of binding, bound 3-4 times, it might even be slightly more easily directed into an area to huff and puff and tear their **** down without being distracted too much. Being unbound, it will just go off on a rampage, which is mildly amusing if its just someones Honda pattern Civic, but very un-funny if its a Mars Pattern Stormblade with a grudge.

@MKX

Well there's suiting fluff and then there's balance. We've already seen FFG are happy to change fluff if it means better gameplay, and right now im just trying to think of ways of the OP including a Defiler in their game without just saying "Oh look a defiler. please hand in your character sheets and ill give you fresh ones to roll up new characters on".

It's well outside the scope of most Acolytes ability to deal with. The actual mechanics though you could apply to less terrible machines that they might be able to cope with... but I reckon a lot of blood will be spilt and that makes Khorne happy. The old defiler is one of those things you get in an advanced chaos incursion-

1. Heresy, naughty governors ceeding from the imperium or some agitator finding their way into power to coup-de-etat the appointed leader

2. It gets fighty, with IG and PDF facing off against heretical forces in a bit of a civil war

3. If it goes on long enough and is sufficiently fighty and is done somewhere important enough you might get some marines from both sides wading in

4. Enemy naval ships bust into orbit through navy pickets, widespread open worship of chaos gods, more fighting, more of everyone involved

5. Titans and other possessed/advanced war machines brought in by navy's of both sides.

If the acolytes are bumbling around down there once it gets past Step 2, they really shouldn't be there! You could probably have RT characters involved at about steps 3-4 and Marine or ascended characters at about step 4-5. About the only place to use this is really as an example of just how **** terrible it can get if Acolytes don't succeed at stopping heresy and nipping malignant forces in the bud before they can fester into levels of planetary destruction.

So we'll just leave him there as an example for the purposes of a bit of an intellectual exercise, the upside to the Defiler is that they will probably hear and feel him coming a long way off in somewhere that is probably already very bad and then go crawl under a rock until it goes away