Can someone tell me how Cataclysm is 5 points? Seems like more dartboard scoring.

Barring the fact that it shouldnt even exist as it creates terrible, uncounterable, agency denying, 1st flipping turn NPE, it should have been at least 25 points as it let's you one shot flotillas and small ships right off the board. Even if it was just playtested ONE time anyone could have seen the ridiculous, obvious, clear as day greater than 5 point impact it had on the game. Which makes me wonder, was it playtested at all?

Until they make ignition shots every other turn, or some other errata, the game is broken.

I dunno man, I played a few games with it, and a few games against it before lockdown. It was pretty good, but I won some and lost some. Dunno if I ever quite managed to ace anything in one shot, but definitely did have a couple of games where I was abusing the crap out of my opponent at extreme range.

I found it was much tougher to use Cataclysm effectively if the opponent had a numerical deployment advantage. Waiting out the Cataclysm player and then dropping a serious threat on an open flank after it deployed could really put it in an awkward spot. Also, not deploying too tightly, so that the Empire would struggle to acquire a second target before the enemy could close was good counterplay.

On 10/17/2020 at 3:27 PM, DarthRulesLawyer said:

Barring the fact that it shouldnt even exist as it creates terrible, uncounterable, agency denying, 1st flipping turn NPE, it should have been at least 25 points as it let's you one shot flotillas and small ships right off the board. Even if it was just playtested ONE time anyone could have seen the ridiculous, obvious, clear as day greater than 5 point impact it had on the game. Which makes me wonder, was it playtested at all?

Which “flotillas and small ships” are you bringing against it that are getting cleared in a single shot? You do know that Evade cancels two dice at extreme range, right? Most small ships have Evades.

Also, you don’t have to deploy facing the Onager, nor sail straight into its teeth. Back up! Turn sideways. Do unexpected things, and try lots of them. One may just work.

Also, accept that some ships are good in certain environments, and some are not. The Onager is making things a bit tough on smaller Frigates and Corvette class ships, no doubt, and the Starhawk is doing the same. It may just be a tough time to be a light warship. I expect things will change. This too shall pass.

Pretty difficult to one shot a small ship at extreme range, 5 reds with some form of rerolls, unlikely any accuracy genration, and Evades canceling two dice. One-shotting before actvation is possible I suppose, but tremendously unlikely. Have you played many games against it yet?

As for being an NPE, yeah to an extent. I do prefer when I cannot be attacked in my deployment area before I have a chance to activate in my tabletop games. Cataclysm is far from the most egregious case, but it is an example. It is rather difficult to cause any insurmountable damage on that first shot.

And yes, I can say with a good deal of confidence that it was playtested. They even put a little section in the release booklet credits for testers.

Once youve had it happen once you know to avoid allowing it in future, or at least, it becomes somethibg you can take into account.

On 10/17/2020 at 3:27 PM, DarthRulesLawyer said:

Can someone tell me how Cataclysm is 5 points? Seems like more dartboard scoring.

Barring the fact that it shouldnt even exist as it creates terrible, uncounterable, agency denying, 1st flipping turn NPE, it should have been at least 25 points as it let's you one shot flotillas and small ships right off the board. Even if it was just playtested ONE time anyone could have seen the ridiculous, obvious, clear as day greater than 5 point impact it had on the game. Which makes me wonder, was it playtested at all?

Until they make ignition shots every other turn, or some other errata, the game is broken.

I sounds like you've suffered some bitter defeats against the Onager and it's making you biased against it.

IME the Onager is just right. It's actually quite impressive at how well-balanced FFG made the Onager considering it introduced extreme range and ignition attacks. And I don't recall seeing others claiming that the Onager is broken and OP'd.

The Cataclysm title is essential for the Onager, especially when first learning to use it. After a half-dozen matches or so, it's easier to anticipate where opponents are going to be and Cataclysm isn't as vital. And I rarely was able to use Cataclysm after Round 3 because by then the enemy's ships were past the Onager's special arc and into its flanks.

I've often used Comms Net and Cataclysm to fire off an Ignition attack in Round 1, and I think I only one-shotted a small ship once -- and never a flotilla. Firstly, it would only be viable with SHCBT because it has blue dice. However, the token has to be placed at medium range so it's unlikely that enemy ships would be within medium range of the ignition token and the Ignition attack would roll those blue dice. Red Accuracy's are rare enough that being able to block a flotilla's Scatter is a long shot -- unless the Onager SD has equipped H9 Turbolasers.

Second, the opponent would have to choose their deployment poorly and recklessly charge their small ship or flotilla forward in order for Cataclysm to place the Ignition token close and roll enough dice to one-shot small ships or a flotilla. So it's really on the defender if the Onager inflicts serious damage in Round 1.

Regardless, losing a small ship or flotilla to an Onager early in a match should not be fatal. I think you just need more experience against the Onager and learn how to counter it properly.

19 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

I've often used Comms Net and Cataclysm to fire off an Ignition attack in Round 1

Not legally.

Cataclysm works at the start of the ship phase, so only Hondo can provide a token early enough for it to work R1 (or Tarkin, or Precision Strike.)

The "abusive" build tends to take Officer Ozzel, allowing Cataclysm's ignition arc to extend into the opponent's deployment zone.

It can still be avoided with deployment or activation advantage, though. I wouldn't call it overpowered.

30 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Not legally.

Cataclysm works at the start of the ship phase, so only Hondo can provide a token early enough for it to work R1 (or Tarkin, or Precision Strike.)

Well, that's not how my friends and I interpreted " After the start of the Ship Phase" in our games -- and I never got the chance to use the Onager competitively before the lockdown.

Has FFG clarified that Hondo is the only way to use Cataclysm to fire in Round 1?

Hondo's ability reads " At the start of the Ship Phase" so it's easy to understand. Whereas " After the start of the Ship Phase" is more ambiguous and therefore confusing. Based on how the Onager's Ignition token is normally placed at the end of its ship activation, I always interpreted Cataclysm's rules as meaning " Anytime after the start of the Ship Phase, you may spend a CF token..." which basically meant the start of the Onager's ship activation, so Cataclysm was inverting the timing of the Ignition token placement. That's why I assumed if I activated a Goz with CN first and passed a CF token to Cataclysm, I could use it in Round 1.

If FFG intended for Hondo to be the key to firing the Onager with Cataclysm in Round 1, I don't understand why they would make the preambles to their abilities slightly different. "At" is so much clearer timing than "after".

On 10/17/2020 at 2:27 PM, DarthRulesLawyer said:

Can someone tell me how Cataclysm is 5 points? Seems like more dartboard scoring.

Barring the fact that it shouldnt even exist as it creates terrible, uncounterable, agency denying, 1st flipping turn NPE, it should have been at least 25 points as it let's you one shot flotillas and small ships right off the board. Even if it was just playtested ONE time anyone could have seen the ridiculous, obvious, clear as day greater than 5 point impact it had on the game. Which makes me wonder, was it playtested at all?

Until they make ignition shots every other turn, or some other errata, the game is broken.

Having played the Onager multiple times, I find that Cataclysm is overrated. Much rather prefer Rakehell or no title at all imo. Turn 1 shots require very specific cards to get it to fire before anything else can go and it isn't even likely to one shot something unless you are playing some objective like Opening Salvo or your target ships were at speed 0 from an interdictor.

Except “after” is defined in the rulebook as “immediately after”

not anytime after.

(RRG Page 5, “Effect use and Timing”)

FFG's phrasing can be awkward and hard to interpret, but (whilst your group can continue to play with your own version of the rules, and FFG may 'clarify' to agree with you) the consensus is that you need Tarkin or Hondo or anything that gets the ship a CF token before any ship activates.

Comms Net is far too late. Sorry, Jabberwookie is correct.

11 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

FFG's phrasing can be awkward and hard to interpret, but (whilst your group can continue to play with your own version of the rules, and FFG may 'clarify' to agree with you) the consensus is that you need Tarkin or Hondo or anything that gets the ship a CF token before any ship activates.

Comms Net is far too late. Sorry, Jabberwookie is correct.

There is zero ambiguity, simply people who dont read the rulebook which is pretty short.

1 hour ago, Revan Reborn said:

Well, that's not how my friends and I interpreted " After the start of the Ship Phase" in our games -- and I never got the chance to use the Onager competitively before the lockdown.

Has FFG clarified that Hondo is the only way to use Cataclysm to fire in Round 1?

Hondo's ability reads " At the start of the Ship Phase" so it's easy to understand. Whereas " After the start of the Ship Phase" is more ambiguous and therefore confusing. Based on how the Onager's Ignition token is normally placed at the end of its ship activation, I always interpreted Cataclysm's rules as meaning " Anytime after the start of the Ship Phase, you may spend a CF token..." which basically meant the start of the Onager's ship activation, so Cataclysm was inverting the timing of the Ignition token placement. That's why I assumed if I activated a Goz with CN first and passed a CF token to Cataclysm, I could use it in Round 1.

If FFG intended for Hondo to be the key to firing the Onager with Cataclysm in Round 1, I don't understand why they would make the preambles to their abilities slightly different. "At" is so much clearer timing than "after".

This is so wrong...you need to read the timing rules.

Hondo can allow a R1 Cataclysm. As can Tarkin.

It is kind of fun imagining the scenarios this creates though...

Mid-game Local Fire Control Salvo replacements. Cluster Bombs to the face two rounds after they attacked you. Bail and Pryce rounds, Agate tokens, Tel healing, all used on a whim. Saving 5 QLT counters to nuke Howlrunner in the last round?

Armada: Death Sticks format.

43 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Cluster Bombs to the face two rounds after they attacked you.

Gotta wait and see which ones get softened up by flak first.

1 hour ago, Revan Reborn said:

Well, that's not how my friends and I interpreted " After the start of the Ship Phase" in our games -- and I never got the chance to use the Onager competitively before the lockdown.

RRG pg 5 EFFECT USE AND TIMING, seventh bullet point :

Quote

An “after” effect occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

11 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Except “after” is defined in the rulebook as “immediately after”

not anytime after.

(RRG Page 5, “Effect use and Timing”)

Yes, but the fact that according to the Reference terms, there is an invisible "immediately" preceding "after" -- and players are expected to always remember that -- just demonstrates how poorly worded the rules are -- and inconsistent, because like I pointed out, Hondo's preamble uses " At the start of the Ship Phase", instead of "after". And Tarkin's preamble is the same: "At" instead of "after".

Why are there two different wordings for basically the same rule?

Tarkin's Commander card and Hondo's Officer card were released long before Cataclysm and their wording has always been easy to understand. So why did FFG suddenly decide to use "After" in the case of Cataclysm? It's just needlessly inconsistent and ambiguous!

24 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

Yes, but the fact that according to the Reference terms, there is an invisible "immediately" preceding "after" -- and players are expected to always remember that -- just demonstrates how poorly worded the rules are -- and inconsistent, because like I pointed out, Hondo's preamble uses " At the start of the Ship Phase", instead of "after". And Tarkin's preamble is the same: "At" instead of "after".

Why are there two different wordings for basically the same rule?

Tarkin's Commander card and Hondo's Officer card were released long before Cataclysm and their wording has always been easy to understand. So why did FFG suddenly decide to use "After" in the case of Cataclysm? It's just needlessly inconsistent and ambiguous!

After and At are not the same timing. Your indignation isnt needed

50 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

Yes, but the fact that according to the Reference terms, there is an invisible "immediately" preceding "after" -- and players are expected to always remember that -- just demonstrates how poorly worded the rules are -- and inconsistent, because like I pointed out, Hondo's preamble uses " At the start of the Ship Phase", instead of "after". And Tarkin's preamble is the same: "At" instead of "after".

Why are there two different wordings for basically the same rule?

Tarkin's Commander card and Hondo's Officer card were released long before Cataclysm and their wording has always been easy to understand. So why did FFG suddenly decide to use "After" in the case of Cataclysm? It's just needlessly inconsistent and ambiguous!

Because these are two separate, distinct timings. They are worded differently because they are meant to be different.

"At the start of step A" -> "During step A" -> "After step A" -> "At the start of step B" -> etc.

None of these are different ways to say the same thing. None of these overlap.

If you learn the order in which things happen and apply the above tier system to it, 99% of this game's timings are clear and easily understandable.

It's neither inconsistent nor ambiguous.

Edit: That said, it is also okay to not know something. Universal, in fact.

14 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Because these are two separate, distinct timings. They are worded differently because they are meant to be different.

"At the start of step A" -> "During step A" -> "After step A" -> "At the start of step B" -> etc.

None of these are different ways to say the same thing. None of these overlap.

If you learn the order in which things happen and apply the above tier system to it, 99% of this game's timings are clear and easily understandable.

It's neither inconsistent nor ambiguous.

The term "After" is in the Effect Use & Timing section of the Rules Reference, but not "At", so there absolutely is ambiguity in those terms.

According to the rules for the Ship Phase, it states that ships are activating during the Ship Phase, but the rules don't specify anything immediately happening at the start of the Ship Phase. Only the Hondo and Tarkin cards refer to "At the start of the Ship Phase..."

It would be a different story if something always occurred at the start of the Ship Phase, and we'd know that Hondo and Tarkin coincided with that Start event or action.

Because technically it's impossible to have something occur precisely at the start of the Ship Phase -- time doesn't magically stop while you take Hondo and Tarkin's actions, so handing out their tokens will technically always occur after the start of the Ship Phase.

Regardless, the semantics of the wording and timing rules have always caused confusion and probably always will. Whether you're playing the game or watching others play the game, there are always questions and clarifications, and mistakes happen, no matter how experienced the participants are.

Yeah, how dare someone mess up a rules timing window. *Exhausts Intel Officer after rerolling his blanks with Leading Shots* that would be monstrous.

Accepting that there are specific event timings and learning o recognize those *is* important though. I had to have the Hondo/Cataclysm interaction pointed out to me because I originally thought the card was rather pointless due to the timing window of the token.

For casual games and games between friends. Missing steps or getting things not 100% correct is ok. Large part of how you learn to play the game.

In any competitive tournament, knowing how it all works is expected and while most players are forgiving, depending on the situation, some are not and they are within tournament rules to enforce game rules.

If an issue comes up, judges will (and should) adhere to the rulebook because that is what is expected from a judge.

If there are no plans to get involved competitively, then don't sweat it. Play and have fun as long as everybody is on board with it.

If there are plans to play competitive, prepare by asking questions from experianced players and playing practice games with the purpose of remembering appropriate steps for the fleet your using.

13 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

The term "After" is in the Effect Use & Timing section of the Rules Reference, but not "At", so there absolutely is ambiguity in those terms.

According to the rules for the Ship Phase, it states that ships are activating during the Ship Phase, but the rules don't specify anything immediately happening at the start of the Ship Phase. Only the Hondo and Tarkin cards refer to "At the start of the Ship Phase..."

It would be a different story if something always occurred at the start of the Ship Phase, and we'd know that Hondo and Tarkin coincided with that Start event or action.

Because technically it's impossible to have something occur precisely at the start of the Ship Phase -- time doesn't magically stop while you take Hondo and Tarkin's actions, so handing out their tokens will technically always occur after the start of the Ship Phase.

Regardless, the semantics of the wording and timing rules have always caused confusion and probably always will. Whether you're playing the game or watching others play the game, there are always questions and clarifications, and mistakes happen, no matter how experienced the participants are.

EFFECT USE AND TIMING

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect , though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

Basically, the RRG considers it an explicit timing that does not require its own section.

If you are doing something that occurs "before" the ship phase, you have not yet started the ship phase.

If you are doing something that occurs "after the start of" the ship phase, then the start of the ship phase has ended; your actions are not simultaneous with any part of it. We've been explicitly told what "after" means, so we also know it occurs immediately and exactly once.

If you have done something that occurs "during" the ship phase, you are by definition no longer at the start of the ship phase.

If you are doing things that occur "after" the ship phase, then the ship phase has ended; your actions are not simultaneous with any part of it.

There is still only one place in this sequence in which one could conceivably use Tarkin and/or Hondo without ignoring the meaning of English words.

You could indeed argue that no card with this window is possible to use because you consider the start of something to be an infinitely small point, but... 1.) that is the timing " during which it can resolve" according to the RRG, 2.) simultaneous card effects being resolved consecutively demonstrates all timings function as windows, and 3.) there are easier ways to get your opponent to stop using Bail. 😄

Thanks for making me look more closely at this.

Well, most of you are not playing against optimal Cataclysm builds. All they need to do is dial in a firepower command and roll 3 blanks + double hit + accuracy (or better). Sensor team spend a blank to get a second accuracy, Gunner Chief Varnillian to switch out a blank with a double hit. 4 hits and 2 accuracies and boom, your flotilla and all of its upgrades are gone.

And if they don't get all four they have Intel officer to take a token and make darn sure they'll get you next turn.

And not all fleets can just "split up". Your completely removing them from the meta.

Cataclysm needs banning. Everything else with the onager is probably okay.

If Varnillian has anything that isn't a blank, that Onager is 2nd player. Just move out of their arc?

Seriously, Cataclysm is only a real danger if you haven't faced it before and worked out what to do - it's still annoying, but you can use it to your advantage.

Place a potential target in the middle, with flanking threats, for example. Use your opponent's desire to use Cataclysm to draw the Onager forwards, so your flanker can hit its weak sides early and kill it?