8 hours ago, Rimsen said:

True, but as far as I see, it's not his problem.

His main point was that why would a worn utility belt free you from the encumberance penalty of using a heavy object like a light repeating blaster. The system allows it, since it doesn't track slots, just simply the values, but I can see why it's breaking immersion. He wanted to address this situation, he mentioned "hoarders" and "mules" many times.

A utility belt won’t since it only increases a person’s encumbrance threshold by one. A light repeating blaster has a much higher encumbrance than one.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

A utility belt won’t since it only increases a person’s encumbrance threshold by one. A light repeating blaster has a much higher encumbrance than one.

In the earlier example of an LRB with an Under-Barrel Micro-Rocket Rack, it would. With Brawn 4 (see Cumbersome 4) that's 9. A utility belt pushes it up to 10, allowing you to carry the LRB without penalty.

Yes, because the utility belt is covering for the encumbrance of the other gear being carried. It also covers the sling/harness which the blaster is suspended from.

14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, because the utility belt is covering for the encumbrance of the other gear being carried. It also covers the sling/harness which the blaster is suspended from.

There are no other gears. There's only a guy, with a threshold of 9 carrying 1 item with encumberance 10.

RAW he gets a penalty for that (I believe a setback on brawn/agility checks - not checked it), unless he buys a belt, which increase threshold to 10 and he no longer has penalty.

That was the example all along. That's what OP argued that didn't make sense.

2 hours ago, Rimsen said:

RAW he gets a penalty for that (I believe a setback on brawn/agility checks - not checked it)

Hi, it's me again, Mr. Nitpick... 😛
The penalty he gets is that he loses the free Maneuver. He can still have up to two Maneuvers per round, but he will now have to pay Strain for both of them.

Thank y'all for humoring my OCD 😏

4 hours ago, angelman2 said:

Hi, it's me again, Mr. Nitpick... 😛
The penalty he gets is that he loses the free Maneuver. He can still have up to two Maneuvers per round, but he will now have to pay Strain for both of them.

Thank y'all for humoring my OCD 😏

No, it's a Setback to Brawn and Agility. If you're encumbered by an amount greater than or equal to your Brawn, then you lose your free Maneuver.

10 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

No, it's a Setback to Brawn and Agility. If you're encumbered by an amount greater than or equal to your Brawn, then you lose your free Maneuver.

You are correct, sir... and that is even worse! You get 1 Setback per point above your Enc. Threshold, and in addition you lose your free Maneuver if your overload Enc is equal to or exceeds your Brawn. By the Whills!

On 10/20/2020 at 3:07 AM, angelman2 said:

Just to be nitpicky here; load belts are very effective at distributing carried weight if you can rest some of the weight on the belt (and therefor your hips instead of your shoulders). Wearing mail armor without a belt, where the weight is carried on the shoulders, is, for example, much more tiring (and screws with your balance more) than if you strap a common belt on to anchor that weight on your hips. (I imagine that the Stormtrooper utility belt does this for the Stortrooper armor, for instance). And likewise, if you can rest a piece of equipment, like a heavy gun or whatever, partially on your hips that will make it easier to carry and move around. (Of course, you'll have to head-canon rule that "Utility Belts" have a built in "load baring belt" function, but as far as Star Wars goes that's not a very significant hand-wavy'ism ).

This is a perfectly valid narration of game mechanics

On 10/20/2020 at 5:58 AM, Rimsen said:

Especially that we have attachments and mods that reduce the encumberance of weapons and armors. I understand your reasoning for a load bearing belt, but Utility belt isn't described that way. It shouldn't help lift you heavy objects, but RAW still does. Also backpack.

Ffg star wars is intended to be an abstract/narrative game rather than a descriptive game, it is deliberately low on detatils.

However, and I'll argue against myself.... I think it has too many fiddly bits for it's stated goal of being a narrative game. It only encourages people like me to create highly optimized characters. There is enjoyment to be found in that by a section of gamers but a more abstract/narrative system having fewer fiddly bits would discourage optimization and rules lawyering.

This debate is a debate over fiddly bits that doesn't really matter other than being about whether to make the bits even more fiddly than they are already, which just takes the system further away from it's stated intentions.

My preference would to be to have a maximum carrying capacity set solely by brawn and number of arms +legs and you get whatever containers/load carrying gear you narratively need to carry it as a handwave.

5 hours ago, Rimsen said:

There are no other gears. There's only a guy, with a threshold of 9 carrying 1 item with encumberance 10.

RAW he gets a penalty for that (I believe a setback on brawn/agility checks - not checked it), unless he buys a belt, which increase threshold to 10 and he no longer has penalty.

That was the example all along. That's what OP argued that didn't make sense.

Not really. As I said above. The utility belt also covers a sling or other weight bearing harness which takes some of the load from the weapon it’s attached to when slung over the shoulder, which would be necessary when firing an LRB.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not really. As I said above. The utility belt also covers a sling or other weight bearing harness which takes some of the load from the weapon it’s attached to when slung over the shoulder, which would be necessary when firing an LRB.

But that's not a utility belt. That's a weapon sling. Those are two different things, both present in the game.

50 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

But that's not a utility belt. That's a weapon sling. Those are two different things, both present in the game.

This is intended to be a narrative game not a descriptive game, also.. the narrative sling was for the torso and it ALSO hooks to the UTILITY belt. "Utility" as in generally useful as in you can click or hang a variety of stuff on it such as pouches and weapons... unless your going to argue that you can't clip a lightsaber to it. I really don't see what the issue is.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

This is intended to be a narrative game not a descriptive game, also.. the narrative sling was for the torso and it ALSO hooks to the UTILITY belt. "Utility" as in generally useful as in you can click or hang a variety of stuff on it such as pouches and weapons... unless your going to argue that you can't clip a lightsaber to it. I really don't see what the issue is.

O_o

A Lightsaber is far different from an LRB.

4 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

O_o

A Lightsaber is far different from an LRB.

A hook/clamp/fastener is a hook/clamp/fastener and there a variety of hook/clamp/fasteners on a utility belt because it is a UTILITY belt. Except for concealment holsters the game doesn't even stat holsters and there are multiple blaster pistols over 1 enc.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

A hook/clamp/fastener is a hook/clamp/fastener and there a variety of hook/clamp/fasteners on a utility belt because it is a UTILITY belt

You don't hook an LRB to your belt. You use a shoulder strap. Contrary to popular opinion, firing from the hip isn't a particularly viable strategy, and you can't hold an LRB on your utility belt because it would likely pull your pants down.

In use: You don't want it hooked to your belt because that limits its usefulness in multiple ways.

Not in use: You don't want it hooked to your belt because, hands free, it would likely pull your pants down and can't balance. If you're going to hold it while you have it hooked to your belt, that's also not all that efficient and doesn't really help all that much. The goal is to be able to hold it in a way that allows you to go hands free at least some of the time.

What you're going to want is a sling attached to (roughly) both ends of the rifle. That way you can balance it and/or have it across your body so that it isn't in the way. Carrying an LRB on your belt is really impractical to the point of being worse than just carrying it.

7 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You don't hook an LRB to your belt. You use a shoulder strap. Contrary to popular opinion, firing from the hip isn't a particularly viable strategy, and you can't hold an LRB on your utility belt because it would likely pull your pants down.

In use: You don't want it hooked to your belt because that limits its usefulness in multiple ways.

Not in use: You don't want it hooked to your belt because, hands free, it would likely pull your pants down and can't balance. If you're going to hold it while you have it hooked to your belt, that's also not all that efficient and doesn't really help all that much. The goal is to be able to hold it in a way that allows you to go hands free at least some of the time.

What you're going to want is a sling attached to (roughly) both ends of the rifle. That way you can balance it and/or have it across your body so that it isn't in the way. Carrying an LRB on your belt is really impractical to the point of being worse than just carrying it.

Narrative sling AND ALSO hooked to the utility belt is better yet. And this is a super contrived edge case example, you got a heavy weapon, with a very specific attachment that adds enc, added a utility belt and fiddled with the character's brawn to even make it a case worth discussing. If you have to go to that length to find an example worth discussing it's not a problem that needs to be solved.

There aren't stats for holsters other than a concealment holsters yet everyone is assumed to have one, a narrative sling is no different.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

Narrative sling AND ALSO hooked to the utility belt is better yet. And this is a super contrived edge case example, you got a heavy weapon, with a very specific attachment that adds enc, added a utility belt and fiddled with the character's brawn to even make it a case worth discussing. If you have to go to that length to find an example worth discussing it's not a problem that needs to be solved.

🙄

It's called an example , and it's not "super contrived." If you don't like that I gave the character 4 Brawn, let's adjust it a bit. Only 3 Brawn, but a weapon sling and a backpack instead of a utility belt.

Yes, the problem is most present with heavy items such as heavy weapons, but it's still a problem I see. Besides, that's not my only/main objection.

And no, it's not better. You don't want it hooked to your belt.

Oh! There's that one pouch thing somewhere that can only carry certain items of limited encumbrance [scurries off...] Yeah! The Rim Excursions Inc. Military Belt Pouch, DC page 59. Granted, it doesn't increase the Encumbrance Threshold and (which make sense because it) can only hold two 0 encumbrance items... and it provides a limited sort of quick draw (for items in the pouch) ... but at least there's some sort of ... let's be generous and call it " precedence " . ... when it comes to size limitations.

Honestly, I think this is a nice addition to some types of games, even in this "narrative" game. Whatever "narrative" is supposed to really mean, as I see it used as a term to justify whatever opinion or perspective expressed.

Sure, if you are simulating Clone Wars, Rebels or Resistance, sure, there's no reason to add this to the game. Luckily, the game doesn't restrict players and GMs in what type of games they want to run, and adding a "slot" mechanic to items and storage space can enhance and improve some types of games.

So, I'm not sure what the issue is here.

1 minute ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

🙄

It's called an example , and it's not "super contrived." If you don't like that I gave the character 4 Brawn, let's adjust it a bit. Only 3 Brawn, but a weapon sling and a backpack instead of a utility belt.

Yes, the problem is most present with heavy items such as heavy weapons, but it's still a problem I see. Besides, that's not my only/main objection.

And no, it's not better. You don't want it hooked to your belt.

You keep omitting the narrative sling when what you want a sling AND a belt hook.

There aren't stats for holsters other than concealment holsters yet everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one, a narrative sling for a heavy weapon is no different.

Back in the day I made something like this for weapons ... holsters basically... I can't recall if they stayed in the Emporium for the final release, but a 1 enc holster, that can hold up to a 3 enc pistol. Sure. The only issue, what happens when you draw it? Does your encumbrance then increase? And this is where the "narrative"-argument regurgitators will start jumping onto whatever they can to dismiss and undermine the idea. Good for them. They don't have to use it. No one does. But someone might want to. And that is and should be fine.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

You keep omitting the narrative sling when what you want a sling AND a belt hook.

There aren't stats for holsters other than concealment holsters yet everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one, a narrative sling for a heavy weapon is no different.

You don't want it hooked to your belt. You really don't.

As for "omitting the narrative sling": No. I'm not. Not everything that is comparable is equal. The fluff for the weapon sling attachment describes it as being a... well, weapon sling. Period. Including very simple versions. The cost is a bit steep for some of the way it's described, but that's the way it is.

If there was a listing for "generic holster" then you would not be saying that "everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one."

In Star Wars, we don't see people using weapon slings all that often. When they do, they are generally using weapons that would benefit from the weapon sling attachment.

We do see that the people with blaster pistols have holsters for them.

So we can say that the one is a sundry (with variants) while the other is a particular thing you have to buy. If they intended the weapon sling to be a sundry and to have a separate item for reducing encumbrance, they wouldn't have listed the weapon sling and would have just had the weapon harness, probably mentioning the weapon sling in the description for the LRB.

11 minutes ago, Jegergryte said:

Back in the day I made something like this for weapons ... holsters basically... I can't recall if they stayed in the Emporium for the final release, but a 1 enc holster, that can hold up to a 3 enc pistol. Sure. The only issue, what happens when you draw it? Does your encumbrance then increase? And this is where the "narrative"-argument regurgitators will start jumping onto whatever they can to dismiss and undermine the idea. Good for them. They don't have to use it. No one does. But someone might want to. And that is and should be fine.

There is the Integrated Holsters attachment from ND that can holster X weapons of Y or less Encumbrance without contributing to the character's total Encumbrance carried.

When you draw the weapon, it would then count to your total Encumbrance.

It's also worth noting that the Integrated Holsters increase the Encumbrance of your armor, so it's basically the same as what I'm doing here. (Side note: we misunderstood the rules for that item in some of my games, so we have characters who need their encumbrance reevaluated. We just haven't gotten around to it yet since I only realized this a couple weeks ago)

26 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You don't want it hooked to your belt. You really don't.

As for "omitting the narrative sling": No. I'm not. Not everything that is comparable is equal. The fluff for the weapon sling attachment describes it as being a... well, weapon sling. Period. Including very simple versions. The cost is a bit steep for some of the way it's described, but that's the way it is.

If there was a listing for "generic holster " then you would not be saying that "everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one."

In Star Wars, we don't see people using weapon slings all that often. When they do, they are generally using weapons that would benefit from the weapon sling attachment.

We do see that the people with blaster pistols have holsters for them.

So we can say that the one is a sundry (with variants) while the other is a particular thing you have to buy. If they intended the weapon sling to be a sundry and to have a separate item for reducing encumbrance, they wouldn't have listed the weapon sling and would have just had the weapon harness, probably mentioning the weapon sling in the description for the LRB.

This may sound rude but it's not intended to. It's intended to make a point about the hypothetical nature of your if

If wishes were horses even beggars would ride

If wishes were fishes even beggars would eat their fill

But they aren't and there isn't a listing for a "generic holster'

Because this is largely a narrative rather than descriptive game and it's set up so you pay for mechanical benefits and you don't pay for narrative benefits

No one goes around naked, you are assumed to have clothing and you get it for free as a narrative handwave, but if you want a little extra protection you pay for heavy clothing and if you want to blend in you pay for "banal apparel" to essentially get a rank of the indistinguishable talent and pressumably the free clothing you'd ordinarily get doesn't make you stand out... the only difference between the free clothing and the banal apparel is you pay credits for the mechanical benefit of banal apparel. There's a variety of other clothing with other mechanical benefits too and you pay for all of them.

In the same way you get whatever you need to narratively hold your weapon so you can use your hands when you're not using your weapon, ergo a narrative sling. And you get that for free because this is by and large a narrative game.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

This may sound rude but it's not intended to. It's intended to make a point about the hypothetical nature of your if

If wishes were horses even beggars would ride

If wishes were fishes even beggars would eat their fill

But they aren't and there isn't a listing for a "generic holster'

THAT WAS MY POINT. My point was that there isn't a "generic holster," but there is a "generic weapon sling."
Perhaps you need to set down the weapon (or switch to holding it one-handed) in order to free up your hands. Or buy a weapon sling in order to reap that benefit.

*Throws up hands*

I give up. I'm not arguing this anymore. I've settled on the houserules I want to work with, and will post an update regarding what I've settled on for those who are interested.

54 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

THAT WAS MY POINT. My point was that there isn't a "generic holster," but there is a "generic weapon sling."
Perhaps you need to set down the weapon (or switch to holding it one-handed) in order to free up your hands. Or buy a weapon sling in order to reap that benefit.

*Throws up hands*

I give up. I'm not arguing this anymore. I've settled on the houserules I want to work with, and will post an update regarding what I've settled on for those who are interested.

Not trying to beat a deceased equine, but there's a larger point about the nature of the game that I think has gone over your head because no one has explained what the phrase

" This game is narrative not descriptive"

means in concrete terms.

Btw I completely understood the supposed "point"/argument you were trying to make and provided the free clothing vs banal apparel actually officially in the game counter example to that exact supposed "point". You missed my point that you were misunderstanding the nature of the game which lead to you making significant assumptions counter to the nature of the game as it is about how the game would be if there were standard holsters.

There aren't stats for a narrative holster because it doesn't provide a mechanical benefit.

There are stats for a concealment holster because it does provide a mechanical benefit.

There aren't stats for a narrative sling because it doesn't provide a mechanical benefit

There are stats for a "weapon sling" because it does provide a mechanical benefit.

That's the point about the nature of the game as it is, it is narrative not descriptive, and I'll elaborate on it a bit more.

In this game you pay for a mechanical benefit (increase enc threshold in the case of a utility belt) and the narrative description of that benefit being derived from a utility belt is just that a narrative description, and game masters and players are not only allowed but expected to alter the narrative description of the cause of the game mechanical benefit to fit the characters in question.

That's what "narrative rather than descriptive" means.

I'm glad you've settled on your house rules, I sincerely hope that you have fun using them, I really thought the discussion about the rules was secondary to the discussion about what the philosophical intent/purpose of the game system is. When you understand the first principles of the game, it's informative about how to mod/house rule the game in a manner consistent to its nature.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Not trying to beat a deceased equine, but there's a larger point about the nature of the game that I think has gone over your head because no one has explained what the phrase

" This game is narrative not descriptive"

means in concrete terms.

Btw I completely understood the supposed "point"/argument you were trying to make and provided the free clothing vs banal apparel actually officially in the game counter example to that exact supposed "point". You missed my point that you were misunderstanding the nature of the game which lead to you making significant assumptions counter to the nature of the game as it is about how the game would be if there were standard holsters.

There aren't stats for a narrative holster because it doesn't provide a mechanical benefit.

There are stats for a concealment holster because it does provide a mechanical benefit.

There aren't stats for a narrative sling because it doesn't provide a mechanical benefit

There are stats for a "weapon sling" because it does provide a mechanical benefit.

That's the point about the nature of the game as it is, it is narrative not descriptive, and I'll elaborate on it a bit more.

In this game you pay for a mechanical benefit (increase enc threshold in the case of a utility belt) and the narrative description of that benefit being derived from a utility belt is just that a narrative description, and game masters and players are not only allowed but expected to alter the narrative description of the cause of the game mechanical benefit to fit the characters in question.

That's what "narrative rather than descriptive" means.

I'm glad you've settled on your house rules, I sincerely hope that you have fun using them, I really thought the discussion about the rules was secondary to the discussion about what the philosophical intent/purpose of the game system is. When you understand the first principles of the game, it's informative about how to mod/house rule the game in a manner consistent to its nature.

Well you're beating one. 🙄

I did not miss your point, your point was wrong. I am not misunderstanding the nature of the system at all in this regard.

My point, which you are still missing, is that if there was a generic "holster" item as there is a generic "weapon sling" item , you would not be saying that there are "narrative holsters."

In the game, there are sundries (page 180, EotE) and there is gear. You can't treat a blaster rifle as a sundry, because it is a particular thing. The weapon sling is a particular thing and it covers all basic weapon slings in the description. If you have a "narrative sling" that falls under that description, than it is a "weapon sling."

If you want to say in your games that your players can have a narrative sling that provides no mechanical benefits, feel free. But that's not held up by the RAW, and you can't tell me that I'm "wrong."

There is the sort of clothing that's a sundry, and then there're particular sorts of clothing that provide particular benefits.
There is the sort of holster that's a sundry, and then there're particular sorts of holsters that provide particular benefits.
The generic "weapon sling" attachment covers all basic weapon slings. Therefore, there are no "narrative" or "sundry" weapon slings.