6 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Well you're beating one. 🙄

I did not miss your point, your point was wrong. I am not misunderstanding the nature of the system at all in this regard.

My point, which you are still missing, is that if there was a generic "holster" item as there is a generic "weapon sling" item , you would not be saying that there are "narrative holsters."

In the game, there are sundries (page 180, EotE) and there is gear. You can't treat a blaster rifle as a sundry, because it is a particular thing. The weapon sling is a particular thing and it covers all basic weapon slings in the description. If you have a "narrative sling" that falls under that description, than it is a "weapon sling."

If you want to say in your games that your players can have a narrative sling that provides no mechanical benefits, feel free. But that's not held up by the RAW, and you can't tell me that I'm "wrong."

There is the sort of clothing that's a sundry, and then there're particular sorts of clothing that provide particular benefits.
There is the sort of holster that's a sundry, and then there're particular sorts of holsters that provide particular benefits.
The generic "weapon sling" attachment covers all basic weapon slings. Therefore, there are no "narrative" or "sundry" weapon slings.

You are blatantly wrong on this point.

A blaster is gear (has stats and a price) not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit

But that's an obvious example that could be explained differently... what about stuff that looks like sundry but you pay for?

A comlink is gear not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit (let's you communicate with people in another location)

A glow rod is gear and not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit (removes penalties for darkness)

A chrono is not gear because it provides no game mechanical benefit.

A garrote chrono is gear because it provides a game mechanical benefit

A standard holster is not gear because it provides no game mechanical benefit

A narrative sling is not gear because it provides no game mechanical benefit

+1 enc is not intended to be realistic rules for a utility belt

"Utility belt" is a default suggested narrative description of +1 enc

RAW and RAI is you get to describe your character gear and apparel as you see fit as long as your narration of your character does not provide a game mechanical effect. If you're going to say that's not RAW look at the rules and description of armored clothing. It straight out says it can look like anything you want it to look like (bikinis are out because it would cause the armor to be invisible or plainly visible, either of which is a game mechanical benefit)

8 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

A blaster is gear (has stats and a price) not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit

A weapon sling is gear (has stats and a price) not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit.

Are we done here?

9 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

RAW and RAI is you get to describe your character gear and apparel as you see fit as long as your narration of your character does not provide a game mechanical effect. If you're going to say that's not RAW look at the rules and description of armored clothing. It straight out says it can look like anything you want it to look like (bikinis are out because it would cause the armor to be invisible or plainly visible, either of which is a game mechanical benefit)

Oh, so my street clothes can be beskar armor then. Good to know. Oh wait, but it can't have an associated game-mechanical benefit, okay.
Some "descriptions" naturally possess a game-mechanical benefit, as the weapon sling does.

A weapon sling naturally provides a benefit as it make a weapon easier to wield and the weight easier to bear. The additional point of contact with your shoulder distributes the weight differently, making it easier to carry a heavy (literally heavy) weapon.

32 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

A weapon sling is gear (has stats and a price) not a sundry because it provides a game mechanical benefit.

Are we done here?

Oh, so my street clothes can be beskar armor then. Good to know. Oh wait, but it can't have an associated game-mechanical benefit, okay.
Some "descriptions" naturally possess a game-mechanical benefit, as the weapon sling does.

A weapon sling naturally provides a benefit as it make a weapon easier to wield and the weight easier to bear. The additional point of contact with your shoulder distributes the weight differently, making it easier to carry a heavy (literally heavy) weapon.

If you have a brawn 6 character with 2 ranks of enduring and want to describe the 8 points of damage being stopped as being stopped by narrative mandalorian armor, sure. But you don't get cortosis or soak or defense or hp for attachments. That's perfectly within RAW.

The statted weapon sling has a game mechanical benefit cumbersome-1 and a mod for quick draw innate talent, that's what makes it gear (stats and a price tag)

A narrative sling that only narratively helps you carry a weapon but doesn't do cumbersome -1, the quick draw mod, or any other game mechanical benefit... that's free because it has no game mechanical benefit.

That's the same difference between banal apparel and free clothes.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

You don't want it hooked to your belt. You really don't.

As for "omitting the narrative sling": No. I'm not. Not everything that is comparable is equal. The fluff for the weapon sling attachment describes it as being a... well, weapon sling. Period. Including very simple versions. The cost is a bit steep for some of the way it's described, but that's the way it is.

If there was a listing for "generic holster" then you would not be saying that "everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one."

In Star Wars, we don't see people using weapon slings all that often. When they do, they are generally using weapons that would benefit from the weapon sling attachment.

We do see that the people with blaster pistols have holsters for them.

So we can say that the one is a sundry (with variants) while the other is a particular thing you have to buy. If they intended the weapon sling to be a sundry and to have a separate item for reducing encumbrance, they wouldn't have listed the weapon sling and would have just had the weapon harness, probably mentioning the weapon sling in the description for the LRB.

The only difference between the utility belt and the weapon sling attachment, aside from the sling being attached to the weapon, is that the utility belt adds to the character’s Encumbrance threshold whereas the weapon sling attachment reduces the encumbrance of the weapon itself. Secondly, the utility belt explicitly states that it also covers gun belts and many include integral holsters . A weapon sling also does not cover a full harness, often required for larger weapons, a “utility belt” can cover that, though it better falls under the LBE (Load Bearing Equipment). This is because the harness is worn , and then the weapon is attached to it (not it attached to the weapon) and it is not slung over one shoulder. Utility belts also include bandoliers . Once again, you could clip the weapon to a bandolier in order to help reduce the load of carrying it. These pieces of gear increase a character’s encumbrance threshold because they allow the character to attach or store the items to their person in such a way that the items weight and mass is redistributed in such a manner that it becomes easier to carry.

On 10/18/2020 at 12:32 AM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I suppose the most fiddly bit would be specifying which items are where and making sure they are small enough to be carried,

...and this is what will kill it in practice. This house rule will only ever work at a table full of hardcore equipment list nerds (being a card carrying, bonafide, thoroughly vetted and peer reviewed E.L.N., it's not a pejorative when I say it ). Most players will duly jot down their starting gear accordingly, but three sessions in any semblance of order will be gone. I think it takes a very particular kind of group who are all very passionate about their characters' stuff to pull off rules like this.

But I wish you the best of luck !

8 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

In the same way you get whatever you need to narratively hold your weapon so you can use your hands when you're not using your weapon, ergo a narrative sling. And you get that for free because this is by and large a narrative game.

Where do you come up with this? The Weapons Sling is an Attachment. It needs to be intentionally selected, purchased, and installed. There is no "narrative sling" that I am aware of, nor for free. Your game, your rules, of course.

Yes, it is a game farther on the narrative side of things, and you appear (not trying to speak for you) to be even farther on that side (based on your "fiddly" comments). But Narrative doesn't necessarily mean "no interest in reality", or "always interpret the rules as loosely as possible".

In my game if a 2 Brawn character with an empty backpack says they should be able to carry a 10 encumbrance HOB without penalty I am going to say "Umm, No. That empty backpack does not help you carry the HOB." Again, your game, your rules.

12 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

You keep omitting the narrative sling when what you want a sling AND a belt hook.

There aren't stats for holsters other than concealment holsters yet everyone with a pistol is assumed to have one, a narrative sling for a heavy weapon is no different.

Where do you connect the mechanical weapon sling if you buy one? Next to the narrative weapon sling?

Or you just argue it so dont have to pay 500 creds for an existing attachment?

17 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

" This game is narrative not descriptive"

The following "concrete" definition your serve half-baked is circumstantial and far from what "it means concretely". It comes across as a slanted, poor, and disingenuous rhetorical gesture. But I'm glad if it serves some justificatory purpose, upholding some narrative of a personal gaming canopy.

Luckily, "this game is narrative not descriptive" isn't, in reality, that narrow and limited a thing as you portray it, and importantly, it doesn't exclude what P-47 Thunberbolt is house-ruling, as there is precedence in the books of similar things, not 1:1 equivalents, but close enough, that still follows the spirit of the rules and the game, which I believe these house-rules also do; unless one subscribes to a particularly narrow or limited notion of what the game allows and is designed to do.

7 hours ago, penpenpen said:

...and this is what will kill it in practice. This house rule will only ever work at a table full of hardcore equipment list nerds (being a card carrying, bonafide, thoroughly vetted and peer reviewed E.L.N., it's not a pejorative when I say it ). Most players will duly jot down their starting gear accordingly, but three sessions in any semblance of order will be gone. I think it takes a very particular kind of group who are all very passionate about their characters' stuff to pull off rules like this.

But I wish you the best of luck !

There is this , which could help - or inspire a sheet that allows you to place stuff different places. I've been inspired by this discussion, and will be implementing a version of this house-rule. Basically the slot thing: where and in what pouch, on what belt, in which bag, is the stuff. And yeah, I'll ask the carbine carrying pathfinder where exactly she's keeping her bulky battledroid blaster carbine as they walk into town ... there's no narrative sling here... 😅

7 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Where do you connect the mechanical weapon sling if you buy one? Next to the narrative weapon sling?

Or you just argue it so dont have to pay 500 creds for an existing attachment?

It's actually only 100, but yeah. The Weapon Harness is 500.

11 hours ago, RickInVA said:

Where do you come up with this? The Weapons Sling is an Attachment. It needs to be intentionally selected, purchased, and installed. There is no "narrative sling" that I am aware of, nor for free. Your game, your rules, of course.

Yes, it is a game farther on the narrative side of things, and you appear (not trying to speak for you) to be even farther on that side (based on your "fiddly" comments). But Narrative doesn't necessarily mean "no interest in reality", or "always interpret the rules as loosely as possible".

In my game if a 2 Brawn character with an empty backpack says they should be able to carry a 10 encumbrance HOB without penalty I am going to say "Umm, No. That empty backpack does not help you carry the HOB." Again, your game, your rules.

There are no stats for a narrative sling because it is narrative not gear (no stats or price).

You allowed to describe your "gear" how you see fit as long as it does not have a game mechanical effect. This is spelled out specifically for armored clothing. If you're going to argue that you can only have a narrative strap if you're wearing armored clothing (or clothing with armor inserts which counts as armored clothing), that is for mr a bridge to far.... I admit to having drank the narrative cool aid (play on words)

At a minimum you'd need to alter the narrative description, because as you said a backpack doesn't narratively help you carry a 10 enc hrb. I'd encourage that player to buy a load bearing gear that they hook on to instead of the player because they'd have to be describing the backpack as something like a body harness for it to work.

8 hours ago, Rimsen said:

Where do you connect the mechanical weapon sling if you buy one? Next to the narrative weapon sling?

Or you just argue it so dont have to pay 500 creds for an existing attachment?

The narrative sling is a simple rifle strap so you can carry it over your shoulder, I should have been describing it as such, you unhook the strap and attach the "weapon sling"

14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The only difference between the utility belt and the weapon sling attachment, aside from the sling being attached to the weapon, is that the utility belt adds to the character’s Encumbrance threshold whereas the weapon sling attachment reduces the encumbrance of the weapon itself. Secondly, the utility belt explicitly states that it also covers gun belts and many include integral holsters . A weapon sling also does not cover a full harness, often required for larger weapons, a “utility belt” can cover that, though it better falls under the LBE (Load Bearing Equipment). This is because the harness is worn , and then the weapon is attached to it (not it attached to the weapon) and it is not slung over one shoulder. Utility belts also include bandoliers . Once again, you could clip the weapon to a bandolier in order to help reduce the load of carrying it. These pieces of gear increase a character’s encumbrance threshold because they allow the character to attach or store the items to their person in such a way that the items weight and mass is redistributed in such a manner that it becomes easier to carry.

Again I'm completely on the same page as @Tramp Graphics . This is starting to get freaky.

5 hours ago, Jegergryte said:

The following "concrete" definition your serve half-baked is circumstantial and far from what "it means concretely". It comes across as a slanted, poor, and disingenuous rhetorical gesture. But I'm glad if it serves some justificatory purpose, upholding some narrative of a personal gaming canopy.

Luckily, "this game is narrative not descriptive" isn't, in reality, that narrow and limited a thing as you portray it, and importantly, it doesn't exclude what P-47 Thunberbolt is house-ruling, as there is precedence in the books of similar things, not 1:1 equivalents, but close enough, that still follows the spirit of the rules and the game, which I believe these house-rules also do; unless one subscribes to a particularly narrow or limited notion of what the game allows and is designed to do.

Seriously, tone down the personal attacks. We should be able to legitimately disagree about the design philosophy of the game and discuss our different interpretations without insulting each other. And don't worry I don't hold grudges, no harm, no foul. However, I find it really odd that you claim I have a narrow rather than broad interpretation of the game. Whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

13 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

We should be able to legitimately disagree about the design philosophy of the game

True. We should be. I call it as I see it, there was nothing personal in it, it was mainly about the purported definition - and some about the belabouring of an understood point, or as you yourself stated: the truncheoning of a - by now - pretty gory and shapeless mass of equine remains.

I must carry all the things!

Okay, here's what I finally went with (players agreed, and we're liking it so far):

Each item for carrying equipment has an associated Encumbrance value, and allows you to carry a certain amount of Encumbrance without contributing to your carried Encumbrance.

Examples:

Utility Belt: 1 Encumbrance. Can hold 2 Encumbrance worth of items without contributing to the wearer's total carried Encumbrance.
Load-Bearing Gear: 1 Encumbrance. Can hold 4 Encumbrance worth of items without contributing to the wearer's total carried Encumbrance.
Backpack: 2 Encumbrance. Can hold 6 Encumbrance worth of items without contributing to the wearer's total carried Encumbrance.
Imperial Army Military Pack: 3 Encumbrance, Cumbersome 2. Can hold 9 Encumbrance worth of items without contributing to the wearer's total carried Encumbrance.
Military Modular Backpack Storage Unit: 0 Encumbrance. Can hold 3 Encumbrance worth of items without contributing to the wearer's total carried Encumbrance
Under-Barrel Micro-Rocket Rack: 3 Encumbrance. Mounted Micro-Rockets do not contribute to the wielder's total carried Encumbrance.

From here, extrapolation should be quite simple.

Notes:
At GM discretion, certain items may not fit, but the GM should take into account the option of mounting items externally.
To clarify, the listed amount of Encumbrance that can be held by an item is not a hard limit, but rather a measure of how much can be carried before the items' Encumbrance starts to count against the character's Encumbrance Threshold.

One benefit I hadn't really thought about going into this was that it provoked thought regarding where the items are located on the characters' persons. Not everything can just be "on my utility belt" without contributing to Encumbrance, which means that they have to prioritize what items they want to have close to hand.
I am more restrictive than many regarding accessing gear. It takes a Maneuver to draw an item before you can use it (unless you have Quick Draw or something), and in some cases it might take additional maneuvers. For example, stimpack in a backpack: Maneuver to get the pack off, Maneuver to draw the stim, Maneuver to use, Maneuver to put the pack back on.
This makes things like Load-Bearing Gear and Utility Belts very useful as it reduces the Maneuvers required. Load-Bearing Gear especially, as it is both the most expensive and the most efficient carrying item.

Something that's been quite useful is not having to do accounting for current carried Encumbrance very often, because it doesn't change. All we really have to do is make sure you don't exceed the capacity of the carrying items.

I like this, and my guess is that it is being implemented out of necessity. I do like the RaW version of encumbrance for the most part but I feel that Role-playing game players have become increasingly less and less interested in physicality where items are concerned over the years, and they weren't all that great to begin with. Video Games and Animation seem to despise the idea of objects having weight, extension, volume, etc. I have to deal with this regularly with my younger players in particular as they seem to not really have any idea of what a giant pain in the *** it is to schlep a bunch of gear around on your body.

So I am all for anything that reminds players (and GM's for that matter) that the amount of stuff you can carry comfortably is actually nothing in the realm of the Mule Characters you typically see in games.

Carrying a ton of stuff is bad, but getting something out of a rucksack in a hurry can be a nightmare, especially if you cannot see very well. It feels like the way people imagine it is that they simply think of what they want from their gear, and it magically appears in their hand instantaneously.

Having some common sense in use of gear is a really great thing.

1 minute ago, Archlyte said:

I like this, and my guess is that it is being implemented out of necessity. I do like the RaW version of encumbrance for the most part but I feel that Role-playing game players have become increasingly less and less interested in physicality where items are concerned over the years, and they weren't all that great to begin with. Video Games and Animation seem to despise the idea of objects having weight, extension, volume, etc. I have to deal with this regularly with my younger players in particular as they seem to not really have any idea of what a giant pain in the *** it is to schlep a bunch of gear around on your body.

So I am all for anything that reminds players (and GM's for that matter) that the amount of stuff you can carry comfortably is actually nothing in the realm of the Mule Characters you typically see in games.

Carrying a ton of stuff is bad, but getting something out of a rucksack in a hurry can be a nightmare, especially if you cannot see very well. It feels like the way people imagine it is that they simply think of what they want from their gear, and it magically appears in their hand instantaneously.

Having some common sense in use of gear is a really great thing.

My players aren't so bad in this regard, but it's a helpful reminder and guidelines can often improve storytelling.

2 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

My players aren't so bad in this regard, but it's a helpful reminder and guidelines can often improve storytelling.

I think most CRPGs typically have the character carry items by slots. So you aren't full until you have all of the slots full. A slot can fit a Winnebago, A 2 Bedroom House, a pocket knife, a stack of potions, etc. SO playing in those games gives this impression of a character being a walking bag of holding.

Cartoons similarly have the ethereal inventory where the gear comes form another dimension when convenient lol.