One of the main reasons I’ve found the SSD to be a poor choice even in kitchen-table games (fun though it is to use), is that the scoring rules make it nearly impossible to win a game with it. Its defenses just aren’t adequate to the task of keeping it from being crippled at least. No other ship in the game has this problem, not even the Starhawk (which probably should have “crippling” rules attached to it, if you ask me).

Without having thought it through really thoroughly, what about a rule that gives half points to the opponent for ANY ship you get to half hull? I mean, that’s how X-Wing does it. Would it work in Armada? Just collecting opinions.

40 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

One of the main reasons I’ve found the SSD to be a poor choice even in kitchen-table games (fun though it is to use), is that the scoring rules make it nearly impossible to win a game with it. Its defenses just aren’t adequate to the task of keeping it from being crippled at least. No other ship in the game has this problem, not even the Starhawk (which probably should have “crippling” rules attached to it, if you ask me).

Without having thought it through really thoroughly, what about a rule that gives half points to the opponent for ANY ship you get to half hull? I mean, that’s how X-Wing does it. Would it work in Armada? Just collecting opinions.

It would work, yes. But not right out of the box. It would take... a 2nd edition, I think.

The most immediate issue I can think of is certain objective cards that award points for damage. You might want to rebalance or ban objectives like Ion Storm, Marked for Destruction, Precision Strike, Rift Assault, Fighter Ambush, Navigational Hazards, and Superior Positions while the "crippled ships" house rule is in effect.

Perhaps. I'd have to see it tried?

2 hours ago, Alzer said:

Perhaps. I'd have to see it tried?

Its called Opening Salvo

I think that's fair.

Overall feels like a good idea.

I don't know if it's strictly necessary for allowing crippling of ships all the way down the scale. Probably only warranted for huge ships & large ships.

But I also get that it's a bit of a slippery slope & that any line you draw is going to feel a bit arbitrary. So, rather than draw that arbitrary line it's probably better just to go all the way down.

Inclined to agree with OP. Starhawk is a particular problem here, since it's tough as old boots and the points reward for killing it is rarely worth the points lost from dead ships and squads.

15 hours ago, FreakinUnoriginal said:

The most immediate issue I can think of is certain objective cards that award points for damage. You might want to rebalance or ban objectives like Ion Storm, Marked for Destruction, Precision Strike, Rift Assault, Fighter Ambush, Navigational Hazards, and Superior Positions while the "crippled ships" house rule is in effect.

17 hours ago, Green Knight said:

It would work, yes. But not right out of the box. It would take... a 2nd edition, I think.

So, yeah. That’s kind of the implication here; that without banning or completely reworking a whoooole bunch of cards, particularly Objectives, but probably many others as well, it really would require a 2nd Edition-style rebalance. Which I think is good for a LOT of reasons, but I don’t want to get off on that tangent here.

Suffice to say that I really like the basic design of the SSD, but I wish they’d not revealed Salvo tech in the very next release; the SSD definitely should have that baked-in, and not be required to use (and pay for) an extra upgrade to make use of it. I also wish they had not designed the ship in such a way that Moff Jerjerrod is the only really viable commander for an SSD fleet. But the crippling rules are really the tough part; I feel like they were a pretty ham-fisted approach to balancing the ship, and I think they overdid it. The Starhawk, in my experience, is actually far tougher and more costly to kill, with fewer really exploitable weaknesses.

And anyway, I feel like the crippled rules applying to an entire fleet might lead to some interesting decision points on the table. “That CR90A is scooting off with no shields. Do I send these two damaged TIE Interceptor squadrons off after it, see if I can grab another 25 points? Or let it go?” There are times when that could make all the difference. It also makes it more profitable to engage with even very hard-to-kill targets like Interdictors, without all the effort having been for nothing if the bloody thing survives on 2 hull when the smoke clears.

Plus, there’s a level of verisimilitude to be found in getting ships crippled costing you points at game’s end. Battles are often won or lost based on how badly beaten one side or the other is when the shooting stops, even if none of the resources used are a total loss. If your squadron of Corvettes has to spend weeks in spacedock getting patched up after that raid on my flagship, was it worth it?

Speaking of squadrons of Corvettes, I feel like crippled rules might be an excellent answer to some really annoying lists... MSU Ram-spam CR90’s looks a lot worse if you’re getting them half-pointed at two damage cards. And man, it might provide some interesting counterplay to Rieekan lists as well!

Huh. Once we get back into Armada locally we might try this just to see.

aGood news is this suggestion doesn’t change game mechanics. Just scoring. So we can check at the end of a game to see what the official scoring would be and what this scoring would be.

22 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Huh. Once we get back into Armada locally we might try this just to see.

aGood news is this suggestion doesn’t change game mechanics. Just scoring. So we can check at the end of a game to see what the official scoring would be and what this scoring would be.

Yeah, as I think about it, I might try it as a house rule with my group as well. The biggest problem with testing it is that, as @FreakinUnoriginal pointed out above, it messes with the scoring on a bunch of Objectives.

Anyway, anyone who wants to give this idea a go, I’d love to hear feedback on it! Post here if you happen to have any data. As @Church14 pointed out, you don’t even necessarily need to run a special game to get at least some useful info. Even just checking the modified crippled points at game’s end would give us some information.

3 hours ago, flatpackhamster said:

Inclined to agree with OP. Starhawk is a particular problem here, since it's tough as old boots and the points reward for killing it is rarely worth the points lost from dead ships and squads.

And what happens in the future, if we see the Lucrehulk? Or dare I say it, MC85 or Resurgent? If those things come in as Larges, with no half-point rule, it might be better to simply run away, because I anticipate shield and hull values that are more similar to the Star Dreadnought Prototype than a “typical” Large like an ISD. Seems like something has to give.

Hmmm... maybe something like an “Extra Large” with new rules that bridge the gap between Large and Huge. (Beating a dead horse here, I know.)

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Speaking of squadrons of Corvettes, I feel like crippled rules might be an excellent answer to some really annoying lists... MSU Ram-spam CR90’s looks a lot worse if you’re getting them half-pointed at two damage cards. And man, it might provide some interesting counterplay to Rieekan lists as well!

When I run this my ramvettes end the game unhurt thanks to reinforced blast doors.

12 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

When I run this my ramvettes end the game unhurt thanks to reinforced blast doors.

Well, this idea certainly would change the value of Reinforced Blast Doors. But change can be good, and it’s probably also why this rule wouldn’t work flawlessly without a 2nd Edition overhaul.

3 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Well, this idea certainly would change the value of Reinforced Blast Doors. But change can be good, and it’s probably also why this rule wouldn’t work flawlessly without a 2nd Edition overhaul.

To avoid a houserule for a higher cost for Reinforced Blast Doors (which would conflict with using, for example, fleet builders) one could assign a token (maybe borrow X-wing critical tokens or something) to ships at the point they're dealt damage (so before Reinforced Blast Doors is applied). Then at end of game any ships still in play, that have a token, award half points. Modify the Repair command so that when discarding a damage card it costs an extra engineering point to also remove the token (if the ship is now above half hull).

4 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Even just checking the modified crippled points at game’s end would give us some information.

You could also see what the totals are like with objectives at full points, -5 points, or -10 points (to a minimum of 5 points, but I think most of the ones this interacts with are 15 points). So one game can net you three scores to evaluate.

6 hours ago, FreakinUnoriginal said:

To avoid a houserule for a higher cost for Reinforced Blast Doors (which would conflict with using, for example, fleet builders) one could assign a token (maybe borrow X-wing critical tokens or something) to ships at the point they're dealt damage (so before Reinforced Blast Doors is applied). Then at end of game any ships still in play, that have a token, award half points. Modify the Repair command so that when discarding a damage card it costs an extra engineering point to also remove the token (if the ship is now above half hull).

You could also see what the totals are like with objectives at full points, -5 points, or -10 points (to a minimum of 5 points, but I think most of the ones this interacts with are 15 points). So one game can net you three scores to evaluate.

You certainly could track crippling this way, but I don’t know if that’s truly necessary; using repair commands and RBD’s and such to get your ships back above half might be a desirable feature in the system, not a bug. Using X-Wing’s half-damage rules as precedent, you’re allowed to use repair effects to heal ships to a point where your opponent is denied points. Of course, repairs are a bit more common in Armada, so maybe it’s not the way to go. Again, I think we just need some data.

On 10/16/2020 at 3:59 PM, Cpt ObVus said:

One of the main reasons I’ve found the SSD to be a poor choice even in kitchen-table games (fun though it is to use), is that the scoring rules make it nearly impossible to win a game with it. Its defenses just aren’t adequate to the task of keeping it from being crippled at least. No other ship in the game has this problem, not even the Starhawk (which probably should have “crippling” rules attached to it, if you ask me).

Without having thought it through really thoroughly, what about a rule that gives half points to the opponent for ANY ship you get to half hull? I mean, that’s how X-Wing does it. Would it work in Armada? Just collecting opinions.

Currently running with the "Crippled" ship rule for all ships in a RitR campaign... It has changed the final few command dials to Engineering to prevent the opponent from scoring.