Well I'm thinking Zsa was pointing out LoW Eddard's vulnerability to stealth when it's his shtick to defend.

KL Eddard may still do his cancelling shtick when stealthed.

Not sure yet, since I pre-ordered mine from Amazon and they still tell me the item is "not yet released". I've tried to avoid seeing as many spoilers as possible, because I want it to be a pleasant surprise when I finally get mine and open the box. I know the return of a modified "frozen solid" is in the box, and that alone I think will help Stark a lot. However, I think Stark will need more than that to be able to fight against the better decks out there right now. To do that, I think they will need repeatable mechanics similar to how Lannister currently has repeatable ways to kneel.

On a complete off-topic: Anybody have any experience running Frozen Moat? As far as my limited experience goes, that seems to be a pretty good solution to all the usual stealth -problems Stark (especially defense -oriented) suffers from. I'm thinking that after LoW, with some work, a defensive build might actually become pretty viable, but as it is another one of those 'outside' builds ktom was talking about in the other thread, I'm not seeing anybody really taking the time to iron out the kinks. =)

Otherwise I think that LoW nudges Stark past most other houses than Lanni in terms of a powerful card pool that offers good synergies, but whether this will translate into really solid competitive builds depends totally on the players...

Lars said:

Thanks Lars. Busy day at work, and my mind is all over the place.

Frozen Moat looks like a good card. I have no experience with it yet, but I would have loved to have thrown it in my Stark Melee deck at Kublacon. The only reason it didn't make the deck is because it was 3:30am and I was far too tired to think about what to take out of the deck. Still, IMHO, it's better for a card to rely on it's own strengths, than on another card to help it out. KL Eddard is such an awesome card buy itself, and it makes so many other cards better. I'd go with KL Eddard over LoW too.

Hey Drakey, Gualdo ran frozen moat with some success in his decks, and he seems to be very happy with the card. It is one of the better Stark locations in my opinion, very versatile. Can keep the stealth away, and the pesky character abilities that trigger off winning a challenge (carrion marauder cersei etc) are wiped out .

Also, if you're running LoW Eddard, this card is definitely a 3X in the deck then.

Well, it's out . Officially. In North America.

Hopefully this box will make a huge difference for Starks.

Zsa is right... I love frozen moat even if some italian stark historical player dont' like it... I know only that with frozen moat in play staelth is not a fear, Arianne is not a fear, wintertime, balon,fox teeth stannis robert are not a fear...

...one great move happened in one game...

Baratheon with Stannis and Davos in play....

...no lords in play... I used frozen moat against stannis defending... when I drew lethal counterattack I made them attack... he wanted a +4 power victory so attacked with davos and stannis together... used frozen moat on Davos... lethal counterattack... both dead... I was very happy ;-)

Wow, I'm surprised by the direction this thread has taken.

I think Stark box will have a very big impact on the environment. Though I agree with Dobbler and others that the cookie-cutter "Stark murder" deck may not quite work (yet?), I think there are some creative options that people will slowly uncover that will definitely change the environment. Specifically, I think that

• Stark already had a decent chance (though under 50%) of beating competitive Lanni decks before this set, especially when it got a fast start. I think the new cards, the Fury plot, and especially Frozen Solid should help put Lanni more on the defensive. I don't think it's an easy match for Stark now, but Lanni players will begin to have difficult matches, especially those who like to play character-lite builds.
• For better or worse, decks built around a single location such as King's Landing or Bear Island will be weaker. Though I don't think this affects Lanni more than other houses, it has important, long-lasting implications for the environment as a whole.
• I think that war-crest effects could affect the environment. One of the things Lanni has issues with is targeted removal, and war-crest removal will help here. Still, it's hard to fit these into a non-Stark, non-Greyjoy build, and there still aren't a ton of war-crest cards even in Stark that are worth running in a competitive build. Depending on what the final wildling agenda looks like in the next chapter pack, some of those large wildling armies could be pretty neat though.

All of the above are little improvements, and I agree with the general sentiment that there won't be any immediate earth-shattering changes. But these types of changes add up, and I wouldn't be surprise if by the time GenCon rolls around (and the final Defenders chapter pack is released) players have put together some very innovative, competitive builds that give Lanni headaches AND perform well against other houses. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those decks ran the Stark house card.

It does mean that since its available prior to the 12th... it will be legal for NYC regional.

I picked mine up today.

The box set filled many of Starks big holes, making them better, but not broken.

1. In house attachment control.

2. In house location control.

3. In house Intrigue icons.

4. In house Draw.

5. In House limited Rush.

6. Challenge-phase Targeted kill.

7. Winter effects without the gold penalty.

None of these are overwhelming in and of themselves, but in the right combination it could make them competetive in Joust.

Couple of things I noticed in the one game I played against the new cards:

• Herald of the Wolf + Blackfish search + Family, Duty, Honor = awesome hand addition (and telegraphs I should have dropped Rule By Decree)
• Endless Endurance is a pain in my side. Hopefully we'll see even more surprise STR boosts; sad this is Stark only
• House Tully Septon makes beating Stark at Intrigue tougher
• The swarm ability of the Tully deck can outstrip Lanni Kneel

All Stark needs to do is run the new Old Bear Mormont in the next CP, and they can stop the Valar that could knock them down.