It has now been several weeks since the Lords of Winter expansion was released overseas and spoilers began showing up on these boards. It is just now hitting shelves in the states.

So this thread is not intended to be a evidence-driven thread, but more a first impression thread.

1) Do you think the Stark box will effect the metagame much? If so, how much?

well, seems like it's probably time for me to pack my lanni away, for one

Dobbler said:

Lannister will not win GenCon.

Unless of course every former Champion and Regional Champion decides to play Lannister and no one plays Stark

I think murder control is better than kneel control - and it sure looks likey can fire off a mid game rush better than any other House.

Draw is still going to be a problem though - thank God. Blackfish helps - but like LIV for Greyjoy - its just the one card.

Stark looks to be in the Top Three - a littel more focused than Greyjoy and with a few more tools. If they can kill kill kill Lannister and Martell early, they are going to be a force to be reckoned with.

See, I'm not seeing Stark Murder as shooting up the ladder in power. Don't get me wrong, I have a Stark deck I'm looking forward to playing with many of the cards from the box, but I just don't see the consistent strength in it. Perhaps I will be proved wrong. But a well timed Red Vengeance really hurts it, Greyjoy has the Military STR and enough saves to stand toe-to-toe in military, and lannister can still kneel most of the important characters. I do think Stark was helped by the box, and I think they have several interesting new builds. But if Stark wins any of the next few regionals, I think it will be because people got "surprised" by some of the new effects and are not used to them, as opposed to Stark simply being stronger.

Wow, I'm surprised by some of these posts.

I think the Stark box will make Stark a competitive house, something I don't thay have been in LCG. People will have to think about how their decks will stand up against such a killing machine, and adjust accordingly. That said, I don't thik it will automatically put Stark up to the top. I'll be very surprised if Stark starts to run away with championships.

I actually think Lanni is the perfect house to stand up against a Stark Kill 'em All deck. Murder control is better than kneel control, except murder control generally needs to win a challenge to do something. Kneel control, while less effective in the long run, should be able to stop murder control from going off in the first place. Plus, Lanni will win the hand size game every time.

I am interested in seeing how much of a liability intrigue will remain to be for Stark. In the past, you just attacked Int until Valar and then caught the Stark player with few cards in hand. Will that still hold up?

Overall, I think it's great that Stark is competitive once again. Most new players I've met tend to gravitate to Stark, and this will be a good thing for them. The Lanni vs. Stark match up is straight out of the books, and will hopefully now be well represented in the game.

One of the reasons I'm still seeing Lanny kneel as more powerful is the fact that many of their control effects are repeatable. Castellan, Brothel, AGH, Toll Gate, Ilyn Payne....turn after turn you are controlling characters with the exact same cards. But other than Bear Island, Greywind and Core Set Robb Stark, what Stark card continues to kill turn after turn, and each of those has major limitations on their kill capacity? A single shot kill effect is definitely stronger than a single shot kneel effect, but I still see too many tools at Lanny's disposal.

I am disappointed with my first attempts with new Stark cards. They can't stand against Martell for example. Something is still missing I don't know what. LIV is so much better than Blackfish (if we're talking about draw), so don't compare these. It may be to soon to decide about new cards though and I'm poor player.

Rogue30 said:

Hahaha, well.... I don't know.... what would you compare The Blackfish to instead? Risen from the Sea?

DJ & Dobbs: you guys may very well be correct. The new murder tech is both challenge based and kind of hard to repeat. Killing is better than kneeling since it permanently rmeoves a card - but I haevn't faced any of the new Stark stuff yet - and maybe you can outlast them and lock them down since its mostly one shots. So this is all very much first impression.

does Bear Island make a comeback now? Does Stark need neutrals?

I suppose it depends on how much draw you want for the Stark deck. They do have some in house options, but will it be enough for most of the players on here?

Stag Lord said:

An aggressive Stark deck needs the cheap neutrals with Stealth (Shadowcat, Syrio, Carrion Bird), so that type of deck cannot run Bear Island. However, Bear Island looks like it would be a good fit in the Stark Defense decks that might make an appearance.

All of our Stark Meta is saying bear island is gone because they will be using neutrals after they get the expansion.

Stark will be great with so much more deck building possibilities... but I bet on greyjoy as the anti lanni... I think it will be more aggressive than stark and with die by sword... new plots... bay of ice... it will draw... it will kill... it will be fast and ANGRY ;-)

Dobbler said:

full answer below, but for now - ~wheres question # 2?

Stag Lord said:

add him to guard at riverrun.......whoa!! maybe they need draw in something other then a military challenge, but I think those 3 plus blackfish could be better then crone (still short of lanni though )

Dobbler said:

even if you are not running characters i'd stil lwant the streets, some milks, maybe longclaw, etc.

Yes I think the stark box makes them a lot more competative. One thing it does is make it easier for stark to protect their hand with some of the int icons they are getting. They got a looooooot cheaper with some of the armies. They have draw (debatable as it may be) which when you add to their search makes it much better. You can rush with Tullys (or without them too as I believe they are also getting the league plot that claims extra power for winning domience). As has been mentioned in other threads they are getting easy and cheap attachment and location control. I think they will be a lot like the deck that won French Nationals in the CCG days a very toolboxy deckthat can handle just about any situation. heck they have elements of all the other houses, plus kill, I see them being able to be chameleon-esq and play differently from game to game as needed. What I am interested in is what versions of what character do people run (i'm thinking jumping cat, cancel eddard, and str pump robb, but I could see arguments for all the other versions too).

Lannister deks might consider AToR Grand Maester Pycelle to get a 2nd Valar:

Limited Response: After Grand Maester Pycelle is killed in the challenge phase, return all of your used plots to your plot deck. (Limit 1 Limited Response per round.)

Hmm... I think by gencon everyone will be playing lanni as usual. Think about it, last standard block Stark was really strong... and nobody played them. People joke that if Prince's Loyalist had been a stark card, nobody would have complained, and nobody would have used it. I think the same will happen. The idea that Stark before the box has not been competitive is a load of bull. The only cases that I have seen people play stark competitivly is either a.) the player is a Ned player, or b.) A Jamie or Shagga player thinks they found something broken to exploit (traitors deck comes to mind here... ). How is this box going to change that? There is no 1 cost reveal a card for every character killed. There is no Robb Stark direwolf, king 3 gold 4 str add a power icon to all direwolves, immune to opponent's curses. There is no agenda thats like pick a plot from your collection and put it into play as a 3/3 Dire Plot character with deadly. The cards are good, not broken (except frozen solid...) so "meh lets wait for the lanni box".

wait lanni box??? mmm if it is as I expect... 6 month per Core Set... I think we'll have to wait long :-)

I think Lanni will be the last to have core set about Core Set 4 houses...

When looking at the possible product tie-in with Battles of Westros...it makes marketing sense to release the Lannister's deluxe expansion next.

~Maybe then we'd get some more Lanni bans exchanged for some lower grade deluxe xp replacements.

Bear Island got stronger to be sure (more Starks, easier to build), but...then it got weaker at almost the same time (Frozen Solid).

It is really hard to say w/o looking at the cards that are going to be printed. Unless they can get a little more targeted control, or recurring control...I am not sure. Kneeling still hurts them...saving does...

I don't see a lot of defences for the main abilities of Stark. And there is so much stealth and deadly that some of these cards (i.e. new Cat and new Eddard) are not groundbreaking. The Eddard that protects Nobles vs. kneeling and the such just seems better.

I agree that mid-game power might be their best bet. They have pretty good defence vs. Valar, and some decent targeted control. However...seems like Bara has the same things, but faster (losing some control). IMHO of course.

only i got to say is frozen soild

best card stark getting

rings said:

Frozen Solid doesn't weaken it, but the fact that it can only target non-Stark characters does.

I don't think there's anything groundbreaking with the new stark box coming out, but it will definitely give the wolves more options in terms of building decks that's for sure. Frozen Solid is probably the best card they got in this deck, along with the blackfish and crown of winter.

As rings mentioned, I also find the KL Eddard better than the LoW one simply because there's a lot of stealth around anyway. The LoW Catelyn is however better than she first looks. First of all, she cannot be stealthed (so that's a big advantage over Core set Catelyn) - you put her knelt into play as a defender - so no stealth vs her or kneeling or prince's wrath etc. It's almost impossible to stop her from defending. That's why I think she's slightly better than Core set Catelyn (which is also a good card).

Crown of Winter is probably the best Buff attachment around. You get + 2 strength, immunity to OPPONENT's character abilities and events (that's even better than what the red viper has built in) and you could make it winter as well.

Put this together with shaggydog and grey wind, and you can see that stark received A LOT of love in the attachment department.

In terms of locations, not that impressive, Winterfell sucks for 4 gold, Riverrun is quite weak in joust, Mole town brothel has that discard clause which could hurt you if you don't right night's watch characters, wolfswood is only good for direwolf decks (and there aren't many good direwolf characters around). To be honest, Frozen Outpost seems like the best location of the bunch.

Nothing very impressive in the events department as well. Die by the swords seems to be the best one they got, and even that seems to fit better in a Greyjoy war deck. The rest, not impressed by anything, pretty mediocre stuff. In fact, besides Die by the Sword, there are no events in the deck that are better than Winter is Coming, To be a Wolf, Lethal Counterattack or Feigned Retreat (in my opinion of course).

I think the expansion has created a very good possibility to build a solid tully deck, but how well will that fare vs other staples remains to be seen.

Zsa said:

Wait. You can't cancel someone's stealth with Eddard right? By the time there's a window to trigger Eddard's response, you've already declared your defenders. Plus, stealth isn't a triggere effect. Am I missing some way that KLE Eddard is good against stealth?

Just want to make sure I'm not REALLY overlooking something here.

you are approaching it the wrong way, not overlooking. Rings and zsa are saying that LoW eddard can be stealthed, thus negating his ability. They like KL eddard better because it doesn't matter if he gets stealthed or not as his ability (the cancel, which has nothing to do with stealth) is not dependent on him being a defender.