The idea of the same card costing different for different factions has been floated before, and I actually think it would be pretty simple because each faction has its own official points PDF.

For example, "Moldy Crow" already says Rebel or Scum only. Additionally, the points listing is not found in the "Generic" upgrades list, but rather separately in each faction's document. Thus, it would not be that confusing or difficult for "Moldy Crow" to cost 15 points for Rebels (because their abilities trigger from having friendlies in arc) and stay 18 for Scum (because it is way better to have abilities trigger by having enemies in arc).

Looking to the future, Starbird Slash will be a far better card on a Resistance RZ-2 A-Wing, because they will be able to zip through a ship, and then swivel their arc around to fire. On the other hand, for an RZ-1 A-Wing, odds are if they zip through a ship, they will NOT be able to also shoot at it. Thus, the card will probably be twice as valuable on an RZ-2 than on an RZ-1. RZ-1s, sure, may be able to sloop or K-turn and have a shot, but that will be way more rare than an RZ-2 being able to do any maneuver, grab a mod, and then swivel the arc.

I know there is value in simplicity, so I do not think this approach should be taken for truly generic upgrades (like proton torpedoes, hull upgrade, Gonk droid, etc.), but given how few cards are (1) super specific and (2) faction-locked or chassis-locked, I think having separate costings for things like "Moldy Crow" and Starbird Slash would be a benefit.

This was an idea that I had! I think that it would make a lot of sense fro the starboard slash/tail slide, as well as giving FFG more tools to balance the game. So I am all for it, and think that we will likely see it!

Sorry but this sounds bit like sour rebel grapes.

Because Reistance versions of Rebel ships can get more out of a particular upgrade, it should be priced more?

Does that mean the outmaneuver should go up on Rebel's because RZ-1's can actually use it and RZ-2's cannot? Plus Wedge is very efficient with it? I haven't heard anyone calling for that?

Granted thier are some cases where a particular upgrade cannot be priced correctly between factions because it causes such inbalance in it pricing, as per Moldy Crow title or R2 astromechs which may warrant your idea.

I don't think starbird Slash or tail slide warrant that. Especially tailslide, as a T-65 focus boost is arguably better than a focus br for clearing obstruction bit still useful on both. Starbird slash may not be a efficient on an RZ-1 but it still can be used to set up oppertunity shots for other ships in your list.

Additionally think of the players faction fighting over how affective each upgrade is for them? Trying to price up every upgrade within the factions could become a nightmare.

There are maybe a few edge case for this happen, it should be across the board.

I would rather have all upgrades become faction-locked with variant names than see 1 card have 7+ values.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I would rather have all upgrades become faction-locked with variant names than see 1 card have 7+ values.

An extreme example, but I agree. That being said I think the idea has merit for a few cases.

The problem it causes is a little confusion and could even lead to a little resentment. "Hey, what does my Moldy crow cost 10 while yours cost 5?"

@Tyhar7 , I can understand it a little. Looking at Starbird Slash and Backwards Tailslide, both definitely have more applicability for the Resistance than Rebel. Not that it isn't useless, but unless an A-Wing is K-turning when performing that Starbird Slash, it can't shoot that target so already the Rebels are down net 1 shot or require greater skill to still get that shot, but the Resistance A-Wing can just do a straight and turn its turret behind. I would argue it's easier to gain the benefit of one than the other. Furthermore, I don't know if the comparison to Outmaneuver works because we're talking about a card that can only go on two specific chassis while Outmaneuver can go on any ship and most ships in the game can benefit from it. Personally I think they messed up with outmaneuver, of course a ship firing out of its forward arc can use it but that's a whole other discussion.

Although I can also see your perspective.

Backwards Tailslide is useful, but less of an example because to really get the benefit you need overdrive thrusters so you're already paying for it more on resistance technically anyway, and as you say I'd consider boost more valuable than barrel roll.

Credit goes to @Gupa-nupa ! I had remembered the discussion, just not where the ideas came from.

7 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

Sorry but this sounds bit like sour rebel grapes.

Guilty as charged! I only own Rebels and even with only playing on the computer still mostly fly Rebels haha

Also, to your point about costing, the RZ-2 is already a slightly more expensive chassis than the RZ-1. So in a way, I could see an argument that the difference is already priced in. That being said, I do think the functionality of Starbird will be through the roof for the RZ-2 compared to RZ-1.

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Like I said in the OP, this would not be for most upgrade cards; just a few chassis-specific cards like Starbird or Moldy. With the introduction of Chassis-Specific upgrades it opens a new design space.

For example, there are already a few "TIE" only upgrades. I could see there being some future release where a "TIE" upgrade is waaaay stronger for FO than it is for Empire (or Scum or Rebels or Republic xD). For example, maybe having the shield or being able to take a tech or (in the case of an SF) having a turret just makes the value on an FO TIE way higher.

I guess there is already an argument "Ion Limiter Override" will already be better on FO because FO can take Pattern Analyzer and thus get an action and the free Barrell Roll. The difference is that requires a separate 5-point upgrade to get the "added" benefit over Empire, while in the case of Starbird, it is just flat out better based upon the Chassis's features.

Another idea for pricing I had was costing some cards on a grid. Specifically, you could have "Initiative" or "Ship Type" or "Agility" as the x-axis, and then "Force Points" or something else as the y-axis. They used to have those one-dimensional grids for dynamic pricing ( *looks like they have since added the dynamic pricing to the chart itself ), so I feel like adding a few two-dimensional grids would add a touch more nuance, without getting bogged down too much in complexity.

So, talking about R2 Astromech, maybe something like this:

Force | Agility: 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 |

0 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 7 |

1 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 8 |

2 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 9 |

3 | 4 | 6 | 8 | 10|

(Note: the cost for the "2 force" row is the current cost)

So, a 3 force ship with 3 agility would pay 10 points for an R2. A 1 force ship with 2 agility would pay 6, a 0 force ship with 1 agility would pay 3, etc.

I'm mildly opposed, since I don't think the few cases are really worth the hassle of it.

I don't think even a 0-point Starbird Slash would save RZ-1 generics at current prices. Rebel HWK are held back by bad pilot abilities (Kyle is another boring focus transfer in a faction filled with them and will never be exciting), and using Moldy Crow to try to paper over that just doesn't appeal to me--plus Jan is still seeing play at current prices.

There's some minor benefit to stuff like this, spreadsheet and matrix pricing, in that you can shave a point or two off of fair ships like E-Wings with Regen or do a slight nerf on someone else, but I just don't think the bother and the obfuscation and other added complications are a price worth paying for that. Mostly, you can just adjust base ship prices.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm mildly opposed, since I don't think the few cases are really worth the hassle of it.

I don't think even a 0-point Starbird Slash would save RZ-1 generics at current prices. Rebel HWK are held back by bad pilot abilities (Kyle is another boring focus transfer in a faction filled with them and will never be exciting), and using Moldy Crow to try to paper over that just doesn't appeal to me--plus Jan is still seeing play at current prices.

There's some minor benefit to stuff like this, spreadsheet and matrix pricing, in that you can shave a point or two off of fair ships like E-Wings with Regen or do a slight nerf on someone else, but I just don't think the bother and the obfuscation and other added complications are a price worth paying for that. Mostly, you can just adjust base ship prices.

I think the number of cases that would benefit from specialized costing is already quite large and growing. I think the adjustable prices of ships and upgrades has been second edition's single greatest improvement over first edition, but unfortunately there are some cases where we are getting into 1e levels of power creep because some upgrades have a single cost when they should have multiple based on where it is used. I agree that in general it is better if costing is kept simple, but there are multiple apps - including the one created by the manufacturers of the game itself - that can do the complicated cost calculation for you.

Ultimately there is a problem at the core of upgrade costing. FFG realized that the "one cost fits all" approach wasn't sufficient and introduced scaling. That was a good start but there are other factors besides agility, initiative, and size that should drive upgrade cost. Several possible solutions have been suggested, and I hope FFG has been listening to them. The upgrade costing that exists has pushed many upgrades off the table and brought several others to the brink of being unplayable. If an upgrade is costed to the point where it isn't used, why even have it? There are a lot of interesting abilities out there that deserve their time on the table. The just need to be costed appropriately.

18 minutes ago, Asaverino1019 said:

If an upgrade is costed to the point where it isn't used, why even have it?

I think this is the flaw. Not everything needs to be widely good. Making stuff that's only strong on one or two ships cheap on everyone else is a tonne of work. I think it's sufficient that an inefficient option exists for people who want to do it (Torpedoes on most ships, Angled Deflectors, etc), but reducing those prices to a point where they're good is... frequently not going to be worth it.

I don't think even 2 point Proton Torpedoes makes a splash on generic X-Wings. It breaks generic E-Wings and Gunboats. I'm sure that's not the only upgrade that'd do something like that. Adding spreadsheets can "solve" it, but why bother when the best case for X-Wings still doesn't really get the job done? It's perfectly fine to balance Torpedo prices around E-Wings and Wedge and call it done.

There's a limit to how much FFG can balance, just in terms of staff and time and resources. Having individual balance levels based on faction, based on not just agility but also force count, based on specific ship or even specific pilot is just going to be a massive drain.

It also becomes a lot more complicated for players to navigate prices. Apps handle some things, but pity on anyone building lists offline--it'll become a lot harder.

My main point is that these benefits to some niche ships and upgrades aren't free. There's a cost associated with them, for players and for FFG's likely strained devs. The most important thing to balance are ship prices, so it'd be best that FFG allocate their budget of people and money and hours to getting that right.

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I'm a fan of a banlist. That's something which can probably be kept a lot smaller, with a few specific ship/upgrade or upgrade/upgrade pairs banned away. Not having to introduce new scaling charts to spike specific upgrades on specific pilots would be really handy.

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I don't hate an idea of a few ships having an adjustment factor on certain upgrade types--the return of Vaksai. But not every ship, and not every upgrade. It's a lot more convenient since it's contained in one place--on the ship. The upgrade can be what it is, and a hopefully limited number of ships have a dial to adjust. But even this I go back and forth on. It's also a lot of complication and a lot of work. Is the benefit of 1 point cheaper astromechs on E-Wings worth it? Probably not.