a question about seal wounds's overbleed:

it states that i can cure an additional character,but i get the d10+wpb or i have to use the one got with the initial launch?

so with an overbleed of 10 i can cure a member of my party of 2d10 and me of 1d10 or 1d10 for each one?

and the other one: i can make a force-lathe sword? i don't think so but i had a request from my players about this...

thanks!

For each 10 points you beat the threshold (which, by the way, is 20, as the Errata notes), you get one of the three overbleed options: Heal an additional 1D10 points, target another character or upgrade the range by 10 metres.

So if you, for example, rolled a 53, you'd get three levels of overbleed, which would enable you to:

-Heal four people within 10 metres for 1D10+WP wounds each

-Heal three people within 20 metres for 1D10+WP wounds each

-Heal two people within 10 metres for 3D10+3*WP wounds each

As for Force and Lathe, that's pretty easy: You can certainly add a power field generator to a lathe blade, but that means the weapon will derive its damage from the power field alone. The result would be a weapon with the stats of a power sword when the field is switched on and a Lathe sword when it's switched off for some reason.
There's an equivalent ruling for the Mono upgrade in the Errata.

the overbleed is 5(i wrote 10 for 2 levels of overbleed),but your example is clear,thanks.

The sword i was speaking about is the force sword,the one used by psykers,not the power sword,do you think i can use the lathe upgrade on that?

As for the sword:

Let me just say, MUNCHKIN BAIT!

I would never allow such an abomination to exist.

By RAW I don't see why not.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I don't see it.

Afore-mentioned Sword: (Wielded by, for the sake of argument, PR 5) 1d10+7 Pen 8

Best Quality Power Sword: 1d10+6 Pen 6

Each have their own special rules. The Force Sword has the killing power thing, the Power Sword can break other weapons. It does not seem to be a whole lot better. It's also going to be inestimably harder to acquire.

The problem with such a weapon, as I see it, is not any sort of game-breaking consequence of its existence, but rather the problems with its creation. I can't see an acolyte having the pull to get this done until they're close to ascension.

i agree with the munchkin bait...

i can argue that because the text tells that the weapon loses it's primitive quality it must be primitive in the beginning and a force sword is not primitive.

i can argue that because the text tells that the weapon loses it's primitive quality it must be primitive in the beginning and a force sword is not primitive.

On the other hand side, a good quality weapon gains the Reliable trait. So there are no good quality lasguns?

cpt.catarro said:

The lathe blades are solid pieces of a really strong metal. Force weapons are made from psychically reactive materials, including some form of circuitry. So I'd say no because to add in bits of lathe-metal you would need to remove the psychically reactive components, weakening how it can be enhanced by a psyker.

The answer can be found in the Force Weapon entry in Inquisitor's Handbook. To craft your own Force Weapon you a PRIMITIVE MELEE WEAPON as the base and then apply the Force Weapon package to it, magically transforming it into a good quality mono weapon in the hands of a filthy Blunt that should not be touching your weapon in the first place... And a glorious extension of your manifest willpower given corporial form in your evolved hands.

Think of "Force Weapon" as a template that you apply to a base weapon. It has a wide variety of options within a well defined category, but it is not open-ended. "Lathe" is essentially a separate template. In WOD terms: You can play a Vampire, a Werewolf, a Faerie, a Mage or some other oddness, but your character is only ONE of those things....

To craft your own Force Weapon you a PRIMITIVE MELEE WEAPON as the base

Would that be a melee weapon with the primitive trait or a melee weapon that is goverend by Melee Weapon Training (Primitive)? That's pretty much the crux of the question here.

Cifer said:

The crux the question is whether the "special psychoactive materials" used in construction of a force sword is compatible with the process and materials used to makes lathe blades. The rules dont say either way so it's pretty much a GM call.

As a GM I truly loathe the force sword so you can guess what my answer is.

I notice a lot of strong feelings towards the force sword from a lot of GM's here. As I have considered tossing one in as a reward for my PC's more than once, I'd like to know: What is it about them that generates such distaste? I've looked at the rules for them, and they don't seem to be terribly broken at first glance...

I don't loathe force weapons. I just don't think psykers need any more advantages.

A force weapon is a perfectly fine thing to give to a psyker as a reward, but the acquisition of one should be a very special reward for an upper rank(5+) acolyte who has proven him/herself.

The Boy Named Crow said:

The Boy Named Crow said:

1d10 armour and TB ignoring damage per degree of success adds up to quite a lot when the person dealing the damage is a psyker. Especially if you take an ascended psyker with unnatural willpower. With a threshold of only 6, the extra damage can be cast every time at fettered strength if you deal damage. The increased base damage and AP from your psy rating mean that you are pretty much guaranteed to deal at least one point, so there are very few enemies that can resist that even if you roll a 1 on the damage roll (remember, you also add SB).

It also ignores demonic increases to TB because it's a psychic weapon. If the psyker is a templar calix and/or ascended they get lightning attack, meaning 3 attacks with this weapon per turn.

In short they are a high damage melee weapon without the usual downsides that come with such power. Even a power weapon has greater risk because it could set the enemy on fire or cook off his ammo.

Okay, I can see that.

I figured it for being devastating against most low-level enemies, but becoming less useful against high level enemies like daemons, sorcerers, and other such high WP opponents, since it's an opposed test.

However, I've never used one, so I digress.

By the way, if you follow the simple rule : '' good craftsmanship mono''. A force sword is 1d10 (not 1d10+1) and a force axe is 1d10+1 (not 1d10+3)

The Topic

YES, you can create a lathe-force blade.

In term of balance

First of all and the most important thing for a GM... It's not overpowering or unbalanced ! When you compare a best craftsmanship mono FORCE weapon with a lathe -FORCE blade, the upgrade ''lathe'' only increases the weapon's damage and it's penetration by +1, BUT the cost is far from being the same !

Exemple :

Cost of a normal force sword (with explication) : 3 500 thrones => good mono sword = 15*3+40 = 85 + 3500 for the upgrade ''force'' = 3500 (3585 rounded to the nearest thousand but because after the 3 it's a 5, it's rouded to 3500)

''Best craftsmanship mono'' force-sword with no psy rating (1d10+1 Pen : 2) => Cost : 15*10+40 = 190 + 3500 = 4000 (3690 rounded to the nearest thousand is 4000)

Lathe-force-sword with no psy rating (1d10+2 Pen : 3) => Cost : 15+2500 = 2515 + 3500 = 6000 (6015 rounded = 6000)

If your player want to spend more Thrône (2 000 Thrônes for me) for only +1 in damage and penetration... He can !

DON'T FORGET, the ''cost'' and the ''availability'' is important when you decide what to give to your players.

In term of Game Play

Description of a ''force weapon'' : Made from the rarest materiels and interlaced with psychic reactive and channelling circuitry of a design said to have originated with the Emperor himself''

''Made of the rarest materiels'' = lathe is certainly a ''rarest materiels''

Can it be interlaced with psychic reactive and channelling circuitry ? Answer : Why not ?

In term of Rules

Mono = it's a upgrade and mono weapons no longer count as ''primitive''

Lathe = It's a upgrade and lathe-blade no longer count as ''primitive''

No much difference especially in the case of force weapon

The Boy Named Crow said:

The Boy Named Crow said:

In that case I'd suggest letting a player use it for a mission or two then decide for yourself if they are too powerful or not. Worst case you just have to take it away again.

My experience with one is that I had played my psyker through Illumination and Rejoice For you are True before the gm gave my player a force staff. First time I used it was against a warp beast on the Twilight, instantly killing it*. Quite a few missions later I asked my gm to replace it with a weaker weapon because I was finding it too powerful and didn't think it a good thing to carry around if I was trying to pretend to not be a psyker so I had it exchanged for a power sword.

Because I can said:

Force weapons are made of rare materials. Eldar children are rare, therefore I should be able to turn them into force weapons.

Just because they both use rare materials doesn't mean they both use the same rare material.

Bilateralrope said:

Simply put, you don't like it, don't allow it. Your presented points seem about comparable to debating the differences between an apple and an orange.

Eldar Children very well could be used as a component in creating a Force-weapon. Just as per older 40K background the biological descendants of the Emperor; the Kai if I recall, are reputedly rendered down as a component in the manufacture of Psycannon Bolts.

The key to a force weapon is that it incorporates "psychic circuitry" which allows them to channel psychic energies. Your point is almost akin to stating that one wouldn't be able to have a best quality force weapon because the book says they have to be "at least good quality." Additional oversight, recall the Force Staff's lack of pen, despite the errata stating that non-edged weapons can be "mono'd," it's just defined differently than "sharp, sharp, fething sharp." Something that wasn't corrected in the FFG release after the errata.

If a player wants something, I give due consideration to it; there is rarely an outright "no." However, anything a player character has is also likley to come back and haunt them in some comparable and menacing manner via an enemy.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Bilateralrope said:

I will write a program and append to this thread to showy ou the difference in opposed WP tests.

To give you an idea however, if you Psyker has WP 7 and your opponent has WP 4 (btw this is the default WP for most printed sorcerers and psykers in the dark heresy books and adventures)

you will win 65% of all opposed contests. I dont know the extra degrees of success, but I'll add that to the program and post it shortly.

What this means:

your hits will do on AVERAGE of +5.5*.65 damage (3.575) PER HIT, on 1 degree of success only. this number goes up A LOT if you figure that on many hits you will just have a large number of successes.

So. so the real question is, if you have a Psi 6 Psyker hitting you for 1d10+7 8 pen? add your strength and 3.575 to that... say 3 STR bonus., so figure

1d10+13.6 on minimum per hit? If he has crushing blow (+2 dmg) 1d10.+15.6 ?

ofcourse, your psyker can just use the force blade power (name may be wrong) in DH core book... if he has a WP 7 its 1d10+14, 14pen... Guess its not quite as good if you cannot make multiple hits with it.

really, the only question is this: If you are cool with the best melee smasher in the group being your psyker, Then this item is fine. otherwise its not balanced in any meaningful way unless your psyker has some WP bonus of like 4-5.

really, the only question is this: If you are cool with the best melee smasher in the group being your psyker, Then this item is fine. otherwise its not balanced in any meaningful way unless your psyker has some WP bonus of like 4-5.

The best melee smasher? 70 WP reeks of near-ascension level. That should be the part where others have either rather powerful talents (Moritat Reaper) or even more powerful weapons - a power fist springs to mind. Not to forget that using a force weapon has phenomena chances for every single channelling and you can channel only once per round.

Cifer said:

A) 40 starting stat, +20 in stat ups... achievable by level 3? 100 WP 1, 250 WP2, 500 WP 3, 750 WP 4? = 1600XP? you dont have to be anywhere near ascension to get this. It is infact TRIVIAL to get it, considering you can start with over 50 WP.

B) channeling the force weapon is a free action. there is no limit to the number of times per round you can do this.

C) power fist versus force Weapon.

lets use the following example.

joe dude, has 4 str

6 WP (because all PC psykers in the universe are smart and choose to be mindclensed void born for +10 and have a min of 30x in their WP stat)

PSI 5

WS 50 (because its an easy number to work with)

-

Powerfist : 2d10 +str x 2 , 8 pen , unwieldy, ... claims it also requires a powerpack to utilize. (only in fluff, not in crunch)

force sword : 1d10+1 (+1/PSI rating) 2 pen (+1/psi) balanced

Force Sword

1d10 + 1 +5psi +4str, +3.6(the result of winning opposed WP contest)... 12pen

or 5.5+6+4+3.5 = 19dmg / hit... MORE if the oppsed check succeeds by more than 1 degree... very easy. 12pen

balanced, good quality(+5 atk), holy weapon, defeats demonic

Force Axe

1d10+3 +5psi + 4str +3.6(the result of winning opposed WP contest)... 12pen

or 5.5+3+5+4+3.5 = 21dmg , 12 pen,holy weapon, defeats demonic

unbalanced

Power fist

2d10+8 str, 8 pen

or 11+8 = 19 dmg, 8 pen

unwieldy

you will note, however the force sword can be used to parry, AND gets a +10 to parry., AND gets a +5 to attack (or 5% bonus to damage), and looks like a normal sword

the power fist on the other hand, is a big bad and completely obvious weapon, cannot be used to block.

if you want to use a power axe, its even better

So, a power fist is infact an INFERIOR weapon to even AVERAGE Psykers.

D) Moritat reaper vs Psyker in melee

While its true a reaper can attack all opponents around it, this rarely happens. It DOES get tearing tho, which helps out a lot if you stack the super cheese with it...

IE: lathe Great sword... 2d10 TEARING + 2 + Str , 5 pen

2d10 tearing yields 7.15/die (since you only add 1 extra die for tearing, not double)

or 14.3 + 2 +4str, or 20.3 dmg / swing 5pen

2handed, unwieldy or something

in other words: if the psyker could ONLY melee attack, he could conceivably do slightly less damage if he was attacked by more than 3 opponents at once... In which case he might take some more damage. OFcourse he might have some godlike minor powers that win... like the flash grenade power, or the fear power, or maybe even a more powerful...after all he IS higher than psi 1.

Further, unless you can kill ALL your opponents in 1 round, OR are invulnerable to their attack, you will be taking more damage, making this ability weaker.

In conclusion:

Melee Psyker is still the strongest Melee smasher. not even by alittle bit. Why? because he deals the most damage, has the most penetration, AND has spells to back it all up. He fares better in large combats, better than Moriatat, because he can cast spells to disable his opponents with near guaranteed success.

Therefore: force sword is OP/broken/retarded

if getting a 70 in any stat by level 3-5 is trivial, you are most definitely playing a different game then most of us.

Graver said:

please correct my math if I am wrong.

If my starting WP stat is 30. and I choose mindclenased start package +5wp, and I'm voidborn, I get another +5 wp.

so before the game start... I'm 40 WP.

You've probably hit the +5 statup at level 1 with your 400 starting xp. (-100) so at level 1 your at 45?

so by level 4, its quite easy and doable again ,1600xp. thats alittle over half your xp total, and for psykers, clearly the most important ability to level up. because it makes you broken, AND it gives you more powers per Psi rating purchase you make (remember its half your WP round up).

so even if your an average psyker your at WP 6. If your anyway near optimal (via sanctioning bonus, tarot bonus, or better than 30 stat) your at WP 7.

and keep in mind... we ARE talking about a melee striker Psi user. Their job is not to have philosophical discourse with the heretic.

I'm not saying this is fair, I'm not saying this isnt powergaming. I infact have a very dim view of the psyker system in general. Force Sword just makes psykers even more OP than they already are, and its trivial to do.

• What I AM saying is that a force sword is cheese-tacularly broken, and you dont even have to try to break it.
• I AM saying maxing your WP first is the smartest thing to do, as it increases your powers known, and its easy to accomplish
• I AM saying that psykers are the best melee combatant. Rules as written they wipe the floor with all other classes in melee. (for that matter they win in every other circumstance as well)

If my starting WP stat is 30. and I choose mindclenased start package +5wp, and I'm voidborn, I get another +5 wp.

Mindcleansed is not a package, but a wholly different starting world. Thus, it's incompatible with voidborn.

B) channeling the force weapon is a free action. there is no limit to the number of times per round you can do this.

According to the errata, you can only manifest one ability per round, regardless of what kind of action it takes (with the exception of resist possession).

Power fist

2d10+8 str, 8 pen

or 11+8 = 19 dmg, 8 pen

unwieldy

you will note, however the force sword can be used to parry, AND gets a +10 to parry., AND gets a +5 to attack (or 5% bonus to damage), and looks like a normal sword

the power fist on the other hand, is a big bad and completely obvious weapon, cannot be used to block.

I believe we were not comparing weapons here, but characters wielding those weapons, making the psyker the "ultimate melee smasher". Are you suggesting that a guardsman using that powerfist will have a strength of 40 while the psyker prances around merrily upgrading his WP?

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that if the psyker ignores enough rules and develops into a one-trick pony (because apart from using half your xp to raise your WP, you also need a lot of them to get up your strength - which starts sub-par for a voidborn) and his companions don't care about combat efficiency, then yes, he'll probably be better at it.

What a revelation.