12 minutes ago, Alzer said:

Huh, I guess I've never viewed Rogue as that problematic. Usually they're tremendously expensive compared to a non-rogue with similar stats ( YT-2400 being the obvious exception). Really the only issue from my perspective is that FFG probably didn't design them expecting people to run 6-8 Rogues at a time and just not needing shi commands. It also gives some flexibility for lists that want squads but aren't designed to push them as much (I love Irregular Rogues for my Rebel MSU nonsense)

And that’s exactly it: generic Rogues shouldn’t ever happen (and if they do, they should not be affordable... VT-49’s are one thing, YT-2400’s are another). I don’t think we were supposed to be able to build efficient fighter screens out of self-activating squadrons. It skews the entire mechanic. I’m a little curious to see if the new ace cap leads people to just jam 6+ YT-2400’s, and I’m hoping that FFG preemptively just jacks up their cost to more like 20 to prevent that.

And yes, MSU is one of the lists that wants Rogues badly, but I kinda feel like maybe they shouldn’t have that easy access to an efficient, effective screen. Again, I feel like it’s okay to give both sides a couple Rogues (like Han and Luke, or Vader), but too many of them is a bit unbalancing.

I'm in on giving YT2400s a points bump. Really though, those Hawk & Rogue builds aren't using many Generics, the ones I see are pretty much all aces give or take a couple with Hera, and you can still fit in a couple flotillas to push squads and pad activations, so I doubt the changes you're proposing would really make a huge impact.

Where are you running into horrendous Generic Rogue deathwings though anyhow? I haven't seen them since pre-Wave 7

1 hour ago, Alzer said:

Where are you running into horrendous Generic Rogue deathwings though anyhow? I haven't seen them since pre-Wave 7

Last regional I went to, I got a R1 matchup with an ATN Starhawk + pure YT-2400s and Jan.

The opponent was a great guy, but I’d brought a squad wing myself and it was close to predetermined nothing meaningful was going to happen that game, which dragged both of us down for the rest of the event.

Ok, so anything besides YT-2400s that are a problem? Or is it just the one generic rogue? Are we kicking generic Aggressors and Lancers to the curb for being too powerful as well? I've certainly had some poor experiences against YTs, but all other issues I've had with rogues were basically my own fault for not bringing any reasonable squadron screen to protect me from them (in the case of say...VT-49s, Firesprays, etc) and the Uniques are all so expensive that I don't consider them an issue outside of maybe Lando.

48 minutes ago, Alzer said:

Ok, so anything besides YT-2400s that are a problem? Or is it just the one generic rogue? Are we kicking generic Aggressors and Lancers to the curb for being too powerful as well? I've certainly had some poor experiences against YTs, but all other issues I've had with rogues were basically my own fault for not bringing any reasonable squadron screen to protect me from them (in the case of say...VT-49s, Firesprays, etc) and the Uniques are all so expensive that I don't consider them an issue outside of maybe Lando.

The 2400 is the only rogue that is: fast, tough, good vs squads & ships + reasonably priced.

Other rogues are strong in one area, but weak otherwise, and thus somewhat less spamable.

Take the Agressor, for example. 1 less speed and hull for Counter 1. Me thinks it was balanced with Rhymer's insane range in mind. Same with Firespray. Awesome squadrons. But VERY expensive for speed 3 and 3 blue AS. If, however, you can Rhymer-turret, the price is more reasonable.

@Green Knight yes that is precisely my point. Why nuke all Generic Rogues when only the YT-2400 is an issue?

50 minutes ago, Alzer said:

Ok, so anything besides YT-2400s that are a problem? Or is it just the one generic rogue? Are we kicking generic Aggressors and Lancers to the curb for being too powerful as well? I've certainly had some poor experiences against YTs, but all other issues I've had with rogues were basically my own fault for not bringing any reasonable squadron screen to protect me from them (in the case of say...VT-49s, Firesprays, etc) and the Uniques are all so expensive that I don't consider them an issue outside of maybe Lando.

I mean, I don’t want to overstate the case. I feel like Rogue, as a mechanic, is fine, and I enjoy playing some Rogues here and there myself. But if I were going back to the start, and redesigning the game, it’s an ability I would reserve for only the most powerful pilots, and a very select few others (like Rogue Squadron), and it would cost a lot. I just sort of feel like access to so many squads with Rogue cheapens the Squadron statistic on ships, and gives players who don’t want to deal with planning around using Squadron commands too easy an out.

I didn’t really start thinking about it until our local RitR campaign, where one guy brought Demolisher and a Gozanti, with Bossk, Fett, and as many Firesprays as he could jam, and it sort of ruined the balance of things. No criticism of the player, he was doing it mainly because he loves Bossk and Boba, but it got me thinking about how Rogue squadrons break the rules, and about how difficult it must be to balance things around them, and started musing that maybe it was a neat but overused mechanic.

And I definitely don’t see why the non-unique YT-2400 should be a Rogue that costs only 3 more points than a squadron of X-Wings, has the same anti-squadron dice, is faster, tougher, and has a better anti-ship attack. It’s a freighter, ferchrissake, it ought to be much more in line with the YT-1300. Slow, lightly armed, and definitely not Rogue. Not all of them were manufactured to be the Outrider.

16 minutes ago, Alzer said:

@Green Knight yes that is precisely my point. Why nuke all Generic Rogues when only the YT-2400 is an issue?

As it stands, I’m agreeing with you, more or less. I just wish they’d never come up with the concept of a generic Rogue to begin with, and wish far fewer aces had it now (and different ones, at that). But again, genies, bottles.

I agree that the generic YT2400 having the Rogue keyword doesn't make sense. The YT2400 is a civilian light freighter; why would it have Rogue? But Rogue was the generic YT2400's one and only keyword, so IF it was revised in an update, what keyword(s) would it get instead?

I think that the generic Firespray and Lancer having Rogue are acceptable because they're both patrol/pursuit craft, so it makes sense they'd be more independent. They're also fairly priced: the Firespray is stronger, tougher, but slower and more expensive; the Lancer is faster and cheaper, but weaker. While it's possible to spam the Rogue squadrons, I don't think they're OP'd.

I think that having 1 generic Rogue squadron per faction is balanced. So only the YT2400 should be revised and lose its Rogue keyword.

With the squadrons rule change coming, it would be acceptable if more Aces received the Rogue keyword because they'll be limited to 4 anyway. If existing squadrons are revised in an update, I'd be ok with Luke, Vader, and Wedge receiving Rogue (considering that Corran Horn's E-Wing has Rogue).

Aaaah, yeah the lack of squad limit in RITR can get to be problematic real quick. Limited points formats like that they get very powerful very quickly, I know we had a 200pt event that one of the players ran an ISD and ...I believe 4 Firesprays and it just crushed everyone. Variant formats can get messy that way.

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

I didn’t really start thinking about it until our local RitR campaign, where one guy brought Demolisher and a Gozanti, with Bossk, Fett, and as many Firesprays as he could jam, and it sort of ruined the balance of things.

Ima refer your player to the Golden Rule....

2 hours ago, Revan Reborn said:

With the squadrons rule change coming, it would be acceptable if more Aces received the Rogue keyword because they'll be limited to 4 anyway. If existing squadrons are revised in an update, I'd be ok with Luke, Vader, and Wedge receiving Rogue (considering that Corran Horn's E-Wing has Rogue).

Yes, yes, yes, to those three squadrons getting Rogue. I know FFG backed themselves into a corner, because of the order of releases (Rogue not existing at the time of the first squadron packs), but Vader having Escort (Escort?! Have they seen Star Wars??) instead of Rogue frustrates my inner Star Wars geek to no end.

4 minutes ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

Yes, yes, yes, to those three squadrons getting Rogue. I know FFG backed themselves into a corner, because of the order of releases (Rogue not existing at the time of the first squadron packs), but Vader having Escort (Escort?! Have they seen Star Wars??) instead of Rogue frustrates my inner Star Wars geek to no end.

See but what game balance reason should they have Rogue? "I want a thing" is sadly not strong enough.

10 minutes ago, geek19 said:

See but what game balance reason should they have Rogue? "I want a thing" is sadly not strong enough.

Armada is a themed game. It should be thematic. Otherwise we could simply play chess.*

*Itself a themed game.

1 hour ago, Rmcarrier1 said:

but Vader having Escort (Escort?! Have they seen Star Wars??) instead of Rogue frustrates my inner Star Wars geek to no end.

I'd love to see a new Vader squadron with Adept and Screen, thematic of the trench run.

I wonder if some of the current Rogues shouldn't have Relay instead, or maybe some "Captain" keyword that lets them activate a nearby (distance 1?) squadron as if it was by command (at the cost of the Captain's own activation?)

IIRC In ANH, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Han takes him out first).

In the game, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Escort).

Escort seems thematic enough to me, unless I'm missing something.

8 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

IIRC In ANH, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Han takes him out first).

In the game, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Escort).

Escort seems thematic enough to me, unless I'm missing something.

In ANH, Vader is being escorted . He’s not doing the escorting. He couldn’t care less if his squadron mates buy the farm. He’s Vader! 😜

17 minutes ago, Bertie Wooster said:

IIRC In ANH, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Han takes him out first).

In the game, Vader's great at shooting down other squadrons but also a big target for other squadrons (Escort).

Escort seems thematic enough to me, unless I'm missing something.

Actually Han shoots down Black 2 first, and then Mauler (Black 1) dips into Vader, at no point does a laser bolt hit the TIE/X1

1 hour ago, Alzer said:

Actually Han shoots down Black 2 first, and then Mauler (Black 1) dips into Vader, at no point does a laser bolt hit the TIE/X1

Yeah that was just good placement on Han's part. Benefit of activating at the start of the turn.

7 hours ago, geek19 said:

See but what game balance reason should they have Rogue? "I want a thing" is sadly not strong enough.

At this point, there maybe isn’t a very strong argument that they ought to be given Rogue; at least not one that I would make, being the guy who thinks that Rogue is a far-too-widely used ability that sort of undermines the inherent balancing act that players *should* (IMO) be forced to reckon with: “Am I willing to concede to A) having ships with low Squadron value and strong combat capability, B) having ships with higher Squadron value and lower combat ability, or C) having ships that have both, but paying through the nose for it?” The prevalence of quality, affordable Rogues has allowed the Rebel faction in particular to sidestep that question a bit.

The fantasy world I was positing when I suggested that Han, Luke, and Vader ought to be Rogues is one in which (in a vast rebalancing) the ability was also stripped from pretty much everyone else. Lando, Hera, Bossk, Dengar, everybody. With maybe a couple of exceptions. Rogues, in this context, would represent only the best of the most elite pilots, each with the ability to almost single-handedly reshape a battle. Rogues would be prodigiously gifted pilots like Luke, not faceless smugglers in YT-2400’s.

This would represent a monumental rebalance. It’s not something to be taken lightly, and not something that I think can (or should) happen unless and until we get a true 2.0.

As an aside, no question that Vader and Luke shouldn’t be Escorts. That’s like, anti-thematic, and just dumb. Both of them spent the entirety of ANH *being escorted*! Biggs said as much: “We’ll stay back far enough to cover you.”

Anyway, I didn’t mean to hijack this leaks thread with a tangentially-related discussion about Rogues and rebalances that aren’t even really on the horizon!

4 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Both of them spent the entirety of ANH *being escorted*! Biggs said as much: “We’ll stay back far enough to cover you.”

Not the entirety of ANH, that was just for that *one* specific run.

And Rogue isn't supposed to represent elite pilot ability, but rather the ability to run independently. (As is currently, not as you wanted to change it.)

Rogue not only costs more points, but there is an opportunity cost to it. If you are relying on rogue to activate your squads then your opponent has a massive opportunity to strike your rogues first and either destroy them or tie them up. A mass of firesprays or YT-2400s can be stopped by a much less expensive group of fighters. Against squadless builds rogue bombers are very powerful. Against even a medium fighter screen, not so much.

2 hours ago, bkcammack said:

Rogue not only costs more points, but there is an opportunity cost to it. If you are relying on rogue to activate your squads then your opponent has a massive opportunity to strike your rogues first and either destroy them or tie them up. A mass of firesprays or YT-2400s can be stopped by a much less expensive group of fighters. Against squadless builds rogue bombers are very powerful. Against even a medium fighter screen, not so much.

Sure. And I mean, a good Rogues player ought to be taking that into account. And even ships with low Squadron value can activate a Rogue or two here and there, which can be a very disruptive surprise.

And yes there’s sometimes an opportunity cost when using Rogues. But the thing about opportunity cost is that EVERYTHING has an opportunity cost. For example, the inverse: by relying on your ships to spend Squadron dials and tokens to activate your squads, you’re paying the opportunity cost of not having more command flexibility, and the opportunity cost of not having more combat-capable ships, or of having to pay a premium for ships like ISD’s (which are also good carriers, sure, but there’s typically something they’d rather be doing, like Navigating or Concentrating Fire).

Once again, I just don’t love Rogue being as common and affordable as it is. If only a couple of elite squadrons on each side had Rogue, I think Armada would be a stronger game. I feel like Rogue devalues and circumvents one of the key listbuilding tensions which create the Armada puzzle we’re all constantly trying to solve.

15 hours ago, Formynder4 said:

And Rogue isn't supposed to represent elite pilot ability, but rather the ability to run independently. (As is currently, not as you wanted to change it.)

Yes, that was my point too. Luke, Vader, and Wedge are exceptional pilots and have demonstrated their ability to seize the initiative in battle, which is why they shouldn't need to wait around for someone to give them orders. That's what the Rogue keyword is supposed to mean.

I think part of the problem is that the Rogue keyword is strongly associated with the squadrons from the Rogues & Villains pack, so some people think of it in a negative connotation because Han Solo was a scoundrel or Boba Fett was a bounty hunter, which is why they don't think it's appropriate for Luke or Vader.

I always thought of"rogue" as representative of multiple crew, or improved automated systems, on a larger scale ship. But I suppose certain elite (or plot-armed, in Luke's case) pilots could fulfill that? The...irregularity of it on Irregular squadrons...( it's been a long day, I'm open to suggestions) is a bit irregular admittedly. I wouldn't to over-crank any of the existing Uniques though, the inate defense tokens and special abilities already put them so far above generics that the big foam cudgel in the sky is descending for them.