On 10/11/2020 at 9:53 AM, ScummyRebel said:

The rules reference guide makes reference to allied ships now. I could see the possibility of a casual format coming that allows a handful of points allowing hiring of an ally. Probably Rebels and Resistance, empire and FO, and anyone taking a little scum (maybe?)

Rebels/Republic/Resistance can take each other and Scum.
Empire/Seperatist/FO can take each other and Scum.
Scum can take Rebels/Republic/Resistance OR Empire/Seperatist/FO, but not both.

7 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Right, but being 'full of' is not the same as it being the focus of the faction, or actually good.

What? You know what some alternatives were in that list? Seevor, Palob, Solsixxa. If a faction is full of tricky pilots and abilities, how is that not the faction identity? The answer is of course your second point of contention, they are not "actually good".

You alternate between competitive and casual play as you need it.
Based on the rest of your post we focus on competitive play. That's fine by me, but just to fix that in advance.

7 hours ago, dezzmont said:

A big problem with Scum until Boba meta was these tricks didn't really congeal into a good strategy.

What you actually mean is they don't congeal into an easy strategy.
Turn 0 is hard. Which makes proper use of all the obstacle-focused abilities hard, too. Of course a player will struggle to use Beckett correctly if they struggle to place obstacles correctly in the first place.

8 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Scum was notorious for not really having much going for it besides Quad fangs and Quad Star Vipers, neither of which are tricky, or particularly fantastic. Pre January 2020, those were the only lists, with any real success rate, and only Quad Fangs were in the top 20.

Because those were easy.
Look, every faction has access to atypical lists. You can certainly try to build aces in Rebels, but it's clearly not the faction's typical list. That does not mean it can't be good, not necessarily. But it is a mistake to jump from "popular" to "faction identity". The latter is design, the former what a lot of player can make work.

Quad fangs are not a typical scum list, even if it is one of the more frequent ones. But throw OldT into a mix of 4-5 scum ships and you have an amazing token denial piece.
Boba+1 is not a typical scum list, Boba is just op.
You mentioned the Sick Scyk Six as another non-scum list. Sure. But take an ion cannon spacer into any list and he's an amazing control piece.

It's ok that people flock to the easy lists, but don't make the mistake in saying that they are the only options. They are not.

Overall, you say that Scum has no faction identity because players prefer certain lists.
I say that has two reasons: these popular lists are strong and they are familiar.

It is ironic to me when scum players pick scum for the individuality and trickery, but then fail to use the trickery and fail to be individual.
I'm not a scum player, so I would precisely take quad fangs because it is familiar point-and-shoot. But I also tried to play aces in Rebels, which is as atypical.

As for competitive success: you look in the wrong spots then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU070mnjSD4

Maybe (at least some) Scum players are interested in field other things than Boba in his flying sneaker *). Or Fang fighters, someone at FFG is a real Mando fanboy (finally M12L and Scyks get to a good price point - oh right let's drop anyone else as well, and while we at it, drop the generic Fangs, too, "cause we never see Fang fighters on the table (ignoring Fenn being everywhere then)"....)

Scum is soo much more than just stuff for Mando fanbois.

There is an Illicit theme in Scum, but both Cikatro and Jabba are just not worth it.

11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sorry, no sympathy from me. Scum is full of scummy tricks, and it's entirely on you lot if you fail to use them.

Was just discussing a list with a really good scum player. Both illicit slots are filled. There is obstacle manipulation (Beckett, seismics, pioneer, trickshot, qira), there is stress manipulation (zuckuss, contraband), there are clever tradeoffs (r5p8), there is punishment for killing a ship with deadman switch, there is punishment for bad maneuvers in Torani, and bomb manipulation (Nym, delayed fuses).

I see it again and again in these threads, all the complaining without actually putting the tools on the table. Scum is full of them! It's your mistake if you fail to use them.

Everyone has Seismics.

Contraband is nice. But compare it to Rebel Leia crew.

Deathman is nice. Now look at Sloane.

R5P8 costs you an attack. If you manage to do it with G4R (no boost or 2hard blue on an "interceptor") or a deathman switch carrier, awesome. But good players see that in time and avoid it easily. Like most Scum tricks.

Yes there are some neat tricks, but most got outcreeped or just nerfed away.

I played Sixxa + Kimogilas, and Seevor for a long time. They do not cut it nowadays, unless you are a truly fantastic pilot. Your opponent is like: Oh Generic M12L(s) or Torani, juicy points. Just get there with a 5 straight, reposition and mod and light her up. Everyone dances just around Kimogilas, Kihraxzes etc, which have vanilla dials, and single, no linked actions.

Maybe with concussion bombs on Sixxa, I will field him again. But guess what, no reload.

Trickshot got pointswise ruined by Rebel Han *), at current price point you just do not put it on a fragile MGT.

Q'ra is neat but costs you an action. When everyone else has access to easy mods, that loss of attack dice mod cost you a lot.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

But throw OldT into a mix of 4-5 scum ships and you have an amazing token denial piece.

Old T (being again a stupid Fang fighter) has the same problem as Palob and Genesis. Does nothing against force. At least he can do something against calculates, the other 2 cannot even do that. And force and calculate is rampaging around right now.

Scum relies themewise on pilots being selfish basterdz. Thus they have to be mechanically self sufficient. Balancewise they are not allowed to, though (apart from Boba).

While easy passive mods and linked actions just rain down on the new ships.

I still play the OT factions, but Rebels and Scum mostly it is only enough for Casual play.

-----

Btw, to give you an impression how some Scum players feel giving Illicits and other Scum tricks to everyone and their kitchen sink:

I would love to see what comments you would do if FFG gave your beloved "Heroic" and "Advanced Optics" to a lot of Scum pieces.

*) Boba pilot & Rebel Han pilot should absolutely have been charge based, with maybe 2 charges per round.

12 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

But good players see that in time and avoid it easily. Like most Scum tricks.

That's the key issue.

I can only point to that strategy/tactics/tricks blog:

https://xwinganalytica.net/2020/05/01/tricks-tactics-strategy/

Scum players try to rely on tricks, which are inherently worse against better players.
What they should do instead is to use good, reliable tactics.

14 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Btw, to give you an impression how some Scum players feel giving Illicits and other Scum tricks to everyone and their kitchen sink:

I would love to see what comments you would do if FFG gave your beloved "Heroic" and "Advanced Optics" to a lot of Scum pieces.

That would be great. Heroic (and outmaneuver, imo) should be base mechanics. And optics is available to scum, too.

3 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Rebels/Republic/Resistance can take each other and Scum.
Empire/Seperatist/FO can take each other and Scum.
Scum can take Rebels/Republic/Resistance OR Empire/Seperatist/FO, but not both.

It doesn't make any sense that Republic and Rebels would coexist as a faction in the lore. Neither Empire or Separatists.
The Empire is the evolution of the Republic, who fought the Separatists. Why would the Empire ally with the Separatists. We even see them in SW: Rebels systematically wiping out pouches of Separatists survivors, while being relatively cordial to clone remnants. The Republic turns into the Empire literally in an instant, during a speech in the Senate.
The Rebels have more in common with the Separatists, since they fight against the same dude: Palpatine.

We'd need a bit more complex "allegiance" rules, based on some keywords.

Your squad must have 50%+ points spent on a single faction. That is your squad's main faction. Then you can bring allied ships from other possible allied factions, but never mix units from two factions that aren't compatible with each other.
Allowed alliances:

• Rebels: Resistance, Republic Jedi-only, Scum non-Sith, Separatists non-Sith
• Resistance: Rebels, Republic Jedi-only, Scum non-Sith, Separatists non-Sith
• Empire: First Order, Republic non-Jedi, Separatists Sith-only, Scum
• First Order: Empire, Republic non-Jedi, Separatists Sith-only, Scum
• Scum: Any
• Republic: Rebels, Resistance, Scum non-Sith, Empire non-Sith, First Order non-Sith
• Separatists: Rebels non-Jedi, Resistance non-Jedi, Scum, Empire, First Order

11 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Oh for sure; it’s all because of the EU that he is as awesome as he is. And I realize that all got decanonized officially but without a contradictory canon element it’s worth assuming they are for now.

Interestingly, the EU devalues the one thing he actually did on screen: track the Falcon to Bespin. In the EU, Dengar, IG-88, 4-LOM, and Zuckuss all get to Bespin before Boba, IIRC.

15 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Was just discussing a list with a really good scum player. Both illicit slots are filled. There is obstacle manipulation (Beckett, seismics, pioneer, trickshot, qira), there is stress manipulation (zuckuss, contraband), there are clever tradeoffs (r5p8), there is punishment for killing a ship with deadman switch, there is punishment for bad maneuvers in Torani, and bomb manipulation (Nym, delayed fuses).

Green, we pretty much only disagree on two topic, Adv Optics cost and Scum identity.

Seismics are available to all but one faction, that will likely get a bomber at some point. ORPioneer and Qi'ra (and MGT ability for that matter) are all done better by droid struts. Contraband and Deadman's, like Seismics, is very much not a scum exclusive. Bomb manipulation with Nym, Sol, Zuvio, and Emon is cool, but those are not a strong Scum identity as Resistance Bomber, TIE/sa's Nimble Bomber, the Bombardment Drone, and the non-faction locked Delayed Fuses spread that identity thin. R5-P8 is a decent card but doesn't feel very scummy in theme. Trading offensive output for damage is shared by Ruthless, Saw Gerrera, and Tn-3465.

That leaves Beckett and Zuckuss from your example. Beckett is interesting but only moderately useful, but don't take that as me discounting his Scumminess. He is good example. Zuckuss is a great Scum example.

54 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Interestingly, the EU devalues the one thing he actually did on screen: track the Falcon to Bespin. In the EU, Dengar, IG-88, 4-LOM, and Zuckuss all get to Bespin before Boba, IIRC.

True, however his list of accomplishments just grows and grows. Zuckess and 4LOM don’t end up doing much (Even aiding the rebellion sort of like Dash Rendar), Dengar finds love and ironically saves Boba from the one last time he really needs aid. Boba personally kills all the IG clan except for A, who wound up at Endor.

Then Fett keeps turning up for other stories.

You're gonna' hate this OP, because I get you to some degree...

But you're gonna' have to maybe stop playing just OT. Listen, I wanted to do just ST but The Resistance... Isn't getting any meaningful releases that aren't moRE F***ING A-WINGS AND X-WINGS for a hot minute and at this point I just DO not care until BTA-NR2 Y-Wings come out and... even then... Look, my enthusiasm got squashed pretty hard. They'd have to do some pretty cool stuff to get me back into playing Resistance.

Because honestly at that point I felt compelled to play Rebels outright instead. More interesting options. You can't tell me 2.0 Rebels don't have more interesting options than The Resistance, you just can't. More ships, more variety, less aces that aren't X-Wings sure but way cooler stuff abroad and I cannot tell you how much I hate that because I'm so utterly sick of The Rebellion as a flavor, ugh. It's like being stuck with Vanilla Ice Cream forever.

Except the other flavor is just doubling down on the vanilla flavor but it's not even Ice Cream! ARGH!

So what'd I do? I switched to The Republic and MAN...

What a good idea. They have so many cool options. They got speedy options, tanky options, forcey options though those are by far my least favorite to use, medium base options that are by and large actually REALLY good! The only other faction I enjoy anywhere near as much is The First Order, because at least they're fun fascists with cool paintjobs that don't scratch a bizarre itch for grey uniformity.

What I'm saying is this.

Break those chains you've got on, because you need to explore beyond OT only. It's kneecapping your experience hard. I may want to fly The Republic way less than I wanted to fly Rebels 2.0 but let me tell you dude, it's fun and fresh. But you know what the biggest problem is?

It feels like it's FFG's favorite child right now, which I hate. Yes, even more so than The Resistance - because The Republic gets new chassis what feels like, comparatively, daily. But The Resistance is still waiting on...

T-85s, that cool transport in TRoS, the dumb transports in TLJ, BTA-NR2 Y-Wings, B-Wing MK Whatevers because a year later we still have NO idea what they're called and that REALLY TRULY UTTERLY BAFFLES ME, literally any of the other aces from Resistance - if Torra and Yeager weren't shoo-ins I don't know who the frak is - alternate pilots for The Falcon and cost adjustments to make the poor frakking thing viable...

And some of these things have been missing for two years.

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Seismics are available to all but one faction, that will likely get a bomber at some point. ORPioneer and Qi'ra (and MGT ability for that matter) are all done better by droid struts. Contraband and Deadman's, like Seismics, is very much not a scum exclusive. Bomb manipulation with Nym, Sol, Zuvio, and Emon is cool, but those are not a strong Scum identity as Resistance Bomber, TIE/sa's Nimble Bomber, the Bombardment Drone, and the non-faction locked Delayed Fuses spread that identity thin. R5-P8 is a decent card but doesn't feel very scummy in theme. Trading offensive output for damage is shared by Ruthless, Saw Gerrera, and Tn-3465.

Do that with any other faction and you will be able to do the same. What you miss is that Scum has all of them together. Bomb control with seismic, with reasonable DMS use, with the rest.

Scum is a melting pot. Of course you can point to other factions and find the same.

But not together

10 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Rebels/Republic/Resistance can take each other and Scum.
Empire/Seperatist/FO can take each other and Scum.
Scum can take Rebels/Republic/Resistance OR Empire/Seperatist/FO, but not both.

The messed up allegiances of the prequels pretty much kibosh any mega-factions.

Separatists don't fit with Rebels (Saw fought against them) but don't fit with Empire (Tarkin fought against them). Maul doesn't even belong with Empire, since he hated Palp ever since being betrayed.

Sure, most Jedi who survive would wind up with Rebels, but not all. The Grand Inquisitor used to be a Jedi temple guard, and there are probably similar things with the background of some of the other Inquisitors. Some clone soldier joined the Rebels, some fought for the early Empire before retiring.

George Lucas created a story where the plot doesn't really make much sense that doesn't divide cleanly into mega-factions.

11 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Rebels/Republic/Resistance can take each other and Scum.
Empire/Seperatist/FO can take each other and Scum.
Scum can take Rebels/Republic/Resistance OR Empire/Seperatist/FO, but not both.

Doesn't really make sense outside of a Heroes VS. Villains theme. Anything not mentioned is not allowed at all. There are some omitted pilots just to keep things simple.

Republic: If Imperial, no Jedi allowed. If Rebel, only Generics. No Scum.
Rebels: Republic, but only Jedi pilots or requires Jedi crew aboard Republic ship. Separatists. Only generic Resistance. Scum Allowed
Resistance: Rebel named, no Jedi and Republic Generics only. Scum allowed.
Separatists: Rebels allowed. Scum Allowed.
Imperial: First Order, any. Republic, no Jedi. Scum allowed.
First Order: Imperial allowed, no force users. Scum allowed.

Yes, I know that The Rebellion gets the most options here. You can blame the films and shows for that. Furthermore I'm aware that The Separatists don't get a whole lot. Frankly neither does The Republic. Y'all know me well enough to know this isn't Rebel favoritism, either.

13 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

Rebels/Republic/Resistance can take each other and Scum.
Empire/Seperatist/FO can take each other and Scum.
Scum can take Rebels/Republic/Resistance OR Empire/Seperatist/FO, but not both.

As cool as cross faction stuff could be, it feels like something that really shouldn't be dabbled in in any official capacity. Kitchen table games, sure. A casual store tournament, definitely. An Epic expansion, yeah why not. As long as it's kept casual I see no issues in doing cross faction stuff, but in the base game it's just too much to reasonably balance. Unintended interactions would pop up all over the place.

There's also the added issue of how to divide the factions up. Your proposed system is easy to grasp and of course would work, but there are issues there regarding fluff. Rebels and Resistance, as well as their counter parts, Empire and FO, make perfect sense as allies since they are basically the same groups with new names. Scum acting as mercenaries who happily side with whoever is paying them also makes perfect sense. Where to put the Republic and the CIS though becomes messy. The Republic seems to fit better as an ally to the Empire than the Separatists do, but neither of those options don't really make complete sense due to how the Republic was twisted into the Empire, and the CIS being at war with the Republic meaning they probably wouldn't like the Empire either. Sticking either side with the Rebels doesn't really work either for similar reasons, what with the CIS being kinda evil and the Republic turning into the Rebels primary enemy.

A more nuanced system like what @KCDodger suggested seems needed for something like this if you want to keep it more in line with the lore of the setting. Of course if that's not a concern then simply splitting it up by "Good Guys and Bad Guys" with Scum just kinda doing whatever they want, would certainly work. Both ideas feel like a pretty tall order to balance, but I said at the beginning I'd only want this stuff for casual or epic games. But you know that's just my opinion.

Thinking that CIS, or the Republic for that matter, were the "bad guys" is laughable. The factions themselves were pawns with the bulk of them consisting of either mechanical or organic machines. The bad guys were the Sith, everyone else was just a tool...

4 hours ago, KCDodger said:

So what'd I do? I switched to The Republic and MAN...

What a good idea. They have so many cool options. They got speedy options, tanky options, forcey options though those are by far my least favorite to use, medium base options that are by and large actually REALLY good!

What I'm saying is this.

Break those chains you've got on, because you need to explore beyond OT only. It's kneecapping your experience hard. I may want to fly The Republic way less than I wanted to fly Rebels 2.0 but let me tell you dude, it's fun and fresh.

If this is the eventual evolution of the game in its current design iteration, that a certain contingent of players must simply be worn down into submission to go into factions they aren't interested in playing, it will NOT end well. The game and local scenes will silently bleed out underneath a swollen mound of calculate and force tokens. Chassis and pilots and abilities do not need to be carbon copied for balance, but if we get to a point where the passionate fan's chosen era is dwarfed optionally by the featurecreep of the prequels, many players will abandon ship(s), literally. Those players, those factions, need to always be treated with the same level of consideration as the rest. The game is not called ETA-2 Actis; TMG. Because at some point, whether we admit it or not, the IP thematicaly will always boil down to classic x-wing vs tie fighter viability, with options and features every bit as robust as any other option available.

See also; Squadrons, Star Wars.

Scum faction identity and what has worked for scum don't always line up. Was Thug life scummy or was it that unhinged astromech was busted? Was K4 security droid scummy or just flat out broken? Same for the jumpmaster and scurgg (it didn't take a genius use genius). Now there were scummy lists in first but scum had a lot of easy button lists that crowded them out.

In second exceptional pilots like Boba, Fenn, and Guri are just flat out awesome (any faction would run them) but are they really scummy. Then the 2019 world lists that had Torkil, Seevor, khiraz made some noise and it felt like the first truly scum lists to do well in 2nd and we haven't seen them in awhile. This isn't to say that there haven't been other lists that are flavorful its just people tend to gravitate towards the best stuff.

On a side note the most aggravating thing about scum is that FFG still hasn't made Uglies, this boggles my mind. Terex makes an ugly in the Poe Dameron comic and they are in the resistance cartoon. Scum deserves them.

If your are frustrated scum player the future is bright there are more scum ships available to the game than resistance and first order combined. I wouldn't be as worried about the squadron pack for that reason.

40 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Thinking that CIS, or the Republic for that matter, were the "bad guys" is laughable. The factions themselves were pawns with the bulk of them consisting of either mechanical or organic machines. The bad guys were the Sith, everyone else was just a tool...

It removes all nuance from the discussion to give them those labels, but they aren't exactly unearned. Yeah the Republic was literally being led by the most villainous person in the galaxy, but they were almost always framed as the heroes until clones started Order 66-ing their Jedi allies. There are of course exceptions, but more often than not their military actions were portrayed as either defensive or attempting to liberate worlds being occupied against their will by the Separatists. The Separatists also seem to be right about Republic=bad, but only in hindsight. They were just as ignorant of their leaders goals, but they don't benefit from positive framing like the Republic did. You kinda abandon the moral high ground when you start testing weapons on innocent civilians.

Just because the heroes lost doesn't mean they aren't still the heroes. They just become tragic.

Honestly Cloaker, at this stage, I think you need to walk away for a break.

I'm kinda tired of seeing your negativity all over the place. I'm not saying your arguments about OT don't have merit, and I agree that Rebels and Imperials should get more expansion, but its become a constant thing to see you *****, moan and whine throwing your X-Wings on the floor like a petulant child because mommy and daddy are focusing on the baby right now rather than you.

I've also seen a lot of moaning, and very little problem solving or offering reasonable suggestions on what you want to see beyond the faction pack speculation which kinda shoots the argument of "nothing coming" in the foot.

I don't like being brutally honest like this, but I've kinda reached that point now.

Here's what I predict about tomorrow. We'll get an article about the V-Wing and with its configurations we'll get another topic or posts in the discussion topic from cloaker about how this is how the Z-95 should have been for Rebels and complaining how, yet again, the PT ships are getting more love than the OT ships.

The next week we'll see the Droid Tri Fighter and with its calculate sharing and 3 attack dice ship and spread of stats we'll get "This is what the E-Wing should have been" comments from Cloaker.

Finally, we'll see Zam's ability be very good on the Firespray for Scum only, and we'll once again have the usual suspects lamenting why she has to be a Separatist Firespray pilot and how she 'deserves' to be in Scum.

Now that we've gotten that all over with, can we just move on and not do any of the above?

Edit; You know what, it's not worth it. I'm not going to delete my post above because that would be redacting history but I do regret some of things I said in this. My multiple edits prior to this also show that.

I guess a mutual point I want to press is...can we get on to positive stuff, please? There is content coming at the very least.

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

I'm kinda tired of seeing your negativity all over the place. I'm not saying your arguments about OT don't have merit, and I agree that Rebels and Imperials should get more expansion, but its become a constant thing to see you *****, moan and whine throwing your X-Wings on the floor like a petulant child because mommy and daddy are focusing on the baby right now rather than you.

I am so sorry that someone being upset about a problem you admit is real posting in the forums makes you this mad, it must be so hard for your enjoyment of the game to have to read a thread title and not be obligated to participate in it because the problem doesn't affect you.

It sure excuses this naked unwarranted aggression that makes our community worse and drives people out of it. How dare they... *checks notes* express an opinion you disagree with in a thread that contains it. It must be so tiring to see someone be negative about an issue that is tiring to them. Doesn't make people feel justified in feeling like X-wing is a bad community with mean people and a company that doesn't care causing player hemorrhage when they get insulted for not being 100% on board with everything you feel and wanting to express that and seek community.

If someone is repeatedly complaining about something that doesn't get fixed, and you agree the complaints have merit despite them not getting fixed, you shouldn't get mad at the people complaining over the problem not getting fixed. You should be mad that the problem isn't getting fixed.

Like, for real, this is an appalling thing to say. Your acting like a 5 year old calling someone who has a pretty clearly legitimate reason to be upset a crybaby. The only child here is you. Croaker isn't 'crying' or having an outburst, he is expressing disastisfaction aimed at a situation, rather than an individual, and talking about how frustrating it is and looking for support. If you aren't on board with that, just don't open his thread, how bout that?

It doesn't always have to be about you and your feelings. There are 22 threads on the front page. Take your pick, and just walk away if you don't feel engaging with someone is productive. Or, if you disagree, state your case rather than resorting to playground name calling. I get enough of that trash at work, and I don't want to have to give a lecture on empathetic reasoning to presumably a grown adult because they got a flash of hot emotions over something this silly that I normally give to 10 year olds.

3 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

If someone is repeatedly complaining about something that doesn't get fixed, and you agree the complaints have merit despite them not getting fixed, you shouldn't get mad at the people complaining over the problem not getting fixed.

You should be mad that the problem isn't getting fixed.

Like, for real, this is an appalling thing to say. Your acting like a 5 year old calling someone who has a pretty clearly legitimate reason to be upset a crybaby.

Between Croaker and You, I think your unquestionably the worse person to have in the community, based on this.

There's complaining about it and then there's constantly pushing it. It seems whenever I see Cloaker the OT and Scum argument comes up, and I got tired of it. However, if I am not allowed to be tired of that or have an opinion on someone's opinion, then I think I'll shut my mouth.

4 minutes ago, Ebak said:

There's complaining about it and then there's constantly pushing it. It seems whenever I see Cloaker the OT and Scum argument comes up, and I got tired of it. However, if I am not allowed to be tired of that or have an opinion on someone's opinion, then I think I'll shut my mouth.

You are. But maybe don't call someone a 'petulant child.'

Again, your a grown *** adult, hopefully. If you can't see the difference between Croaker's self advocation, and your self advocation, you should know better and I expect better from my real life students, and they are 10.

Like I said, I hope I shouldn't go into the standards of behavior you hopefully learned in elementary school, but I will. Instead of calling names and saying they are a crybaby, acting with a very obvious intent to twist the knife and hurt feelings with many 'judgemental' words like 'Moaning' or 'petulant,' in addition to the naked insult of calling someone a child. Now I haven't seen anything in this thread that would make such an escalation of language on your end reasonable, forget about justifiable.

Maybe try to argue from a point of empathy like "I know this is a really upsetting situation but constantly complaining isn't productive when people already understand your point, and I don't appreciate you taking over the forums to make yours."

That is a super valid opinion, especially if its in a thread that isn't dedicated to the issue and is weird and invasive (I gotta admit myself I was not a fan of how the TIE Brute thread went down, even if it was understandable people were leery about it transgressing to rebels), and is a very reasonable stance to have even if I don't necessarily agree. It shows a respect for the emotions someone else in a tough spot is feeling while still standing firm that your feelings matter too and their behavior affects you.

But don't call names. I shouldn't have to talk to you like I talk to the 3rd and 4th graders.

41 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

sit out during group activity.

The amount of posting I've been doing on this forums have been steadily declining over time mostly due to how the community is, and a lot of it is to do with the negativity around the forums in general.

Criticism and negativity are not always exclusive, but I just can't keep seeing all this negative talk especially when I can't do anything. I can't help Cloaker, no one can help Cloaker but FFG and we kinda don't get a say in what they do, not even they 100% get a say in what they do.

Kind of hard to feel part of a community when a majority of it just seem to want to talk about what's wrong, and crap on what is exciting and that's what I take exception to in this, especially Cloakers "ETA The miniatures game comment". They should have just called it Star Wars The Miniatures Game instead of 'X-Wing Second Edition' or something because by naming it X-Wing, they give validation to the OT elitists and the ever present attitude of OT is supreme.

The OT is a shining beacon in the night who's light may never be quashed or overshadowed! How dare the PT come along and take the glory! It takes a positive and spins it into a negative. I also agree that we should see Rebel and Imperial expansions, the difficulty in how to do them without upsetting a community of old players while also supporting new players and so it no surprising that logistically these are presenting more of a challenge for FFG.

I guess this also comes down to a little resentment from myself to of always being pushed down by a community because I grew up on the PT and told 'Your not a REAL Star Wars fan' or 'Your opinions aren't valid because you like the prequels'.

We prequel fans are finally...after 6 freaking years of nothing in the way of ANY content...we're finally getting something. The shoes on the other foot and suddenly there's a problem. Let's not push down the fact there's good new content coming out, but let's hope for good content and speculate on good content for other factions as well, but don't use the NAME of the game as evidence to how OT deserves some kind of special treatment, it doesn't...but that doesn't mean I am opposed to expansions for it. It needs new stuff. We need new pilots and ways for new players to be invested.

Also, I think Cloaker is being a bit....harsh with his "This will make or break the game for me" They just changed the business model for how they are approaching reprints. Let's see what the future holds? hmm?

The example I look to is when Extreme Maneuvers was revealed in the ETA2 article. Cloaker turned what should have been a positive "look at this, this is a great new thing that while mostly applicable to Republic, can go on any small ship force user with boost" was instead turned into "ugh, look how awful this is for the game because I don't have as many options for playing this"

While I empathise at the lack of options...Republic were always going to have more force users. That's kinda their whole thing.

I just the other day was thinking about how I wish I could take daredevil on a Force user, but couldn't because they don't have talent slots. Suddenly, I have my solution.

We've gotten to a point of us poopooing expansions instead of letting people who should be excited for them be excited.

😐

Well that was sure a thing...

22 minutes ago, Ebak said:

I guess this also comes down to a little resentment from myself to of always being pushed down by a community because I grew up on the PT and told 'Your not a REAL Star Wars fan' or 'Your opinions aren't valid because you like the prequels'.

That sucks. I am super glad the PT got either vindicated for people who liked it originally, or 'fixed' for those who didn't. It is a super awesome case of transmedia highlighting the good of something.

I don't care if you like the bloody Holliday Special. You are heckin valid. I don't have to agree with it, but 'good' isn't an objective term and different media speaks to different people.

22 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Criticism and negativity are not always exclusive, but I just can't keep seeing all this negative talk especially when I can't do anything. I can't help Cloaker, no one can help Cloaker but FFG and we kinda don't get a say in what they do, not even then 100% get a say in what they do.

This is frustrating, because yeah our power is limited to actually help each other make changes. But we can always support each other while still creating good boundaries of behavior. Like low key if anyone does keep 'invading' other announcements here I would be a bit miffed myself, because we should be able to both be critical of the priorities of FFG while still celebrating the wins for people who got wins.

This isn't a zero sum game, we should absolutely be extactic that the PT is getting its day in the sun gaming wise. The last that time happened was like... what... Republic Commando?

One thing that may be a problem with X-wings community structure is that unlike a lot of other collectables we don't curate our own formats or modes. Combat Patrol was an invention of the community in 40k for example which helped out small scale games for rapid fire play or smaller stores that didn't have full 40k tables, which later got official support. Elder Dragon Highlander likewise, as well as pauper, star, ect in MTG. We also don't tend to do custom stuff, like other hobby games from RPGs to tabletop wargames. I would love to try out custom pilots or cards, or a variant hyperspace that strikes a balance between HS and Extended, or which totally changes up the factions in other ways.

22 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Kind of hard to feel part of a community when a majority of it just seem to want to talk about what's wrong, and crap on what is exciting and that's what I take exception to in this, especially Cloakers "ETA The miniatures game comment". They should have just called it Star Wars The Miniatures Game or something because by naming it X-Wing, they give validation to the OT elitists and the ever present attitude of OT is supreme.

Its important to note that while its true the game does utilize that darn X-wing as branding which devalues other factions a bit, there is a reason.

It can't be understated how loved the X-wing and OT are. Sometimes this manifests in toxic ways (as we saw very recently. Say what you want about the ST, but some of the community behavior around it was... appalling, like harassing actors). A big reason 1.0 became 2.0 was because the X-wing became irrelevant in that game and that was a dealbreaker for people, so part of the 'promise' of 2.0 was to ensure old content was still supported, which I think it is fair to say it isn't right now.

Like... Star Wars is special. A lot of people make fun of how much the fandom likes it (The 'Star Wars fans only like 3 out of 6 of their movies, are they even really fans of it' snipes legit bug me, especially because I liked 6.5 out of 9 myself, and more love the EU than the movies), but its a true phenomenon that is low key problematic in how corporations are allowed to own such an important part of people's imaginations.

We don't live in a reality where any one faction or ship has to be elevated at the cost of another ship, this is an artifical problem and I don't like how it pits the community against each other. But to be clear, I think its fair to say if that WAS true we should prioritize the X-wing. But it ain't true, and if you think it should be a different ship in said hypothetical wouldn't say your wrong more than it isn't my truth.

22 minutes ago, Ebak said:

The OT is a shining beacon in the night who's light may never be quashed or overshadowed! How dare the PT come along and take the glory! It takes a positive and spins it into a negative. I also agree that we should see Rebel and Imperial expansions, the difficulty in how to do them without upsetting a community of old players while also supporting new players and so it no surprising that logistically these are presenting more of a challenge for FFG.

I think it is more that the PT getting lots of support is very positive, but its being framed like giving the PT extra support, which it absolutely should get! OT SHOULD be the last priority when it comes to new content, requires the OT to get nothing.

Like I said earlier, this isn't a zero sum game. We should accelerate PT stuff because they are 'further behind' but no one should feel overshadowed. Obviously wave to wave some may see stuff and others may not, but the big issue I have isn't 'PT is getting more toys than us' and more 'there is clearly some weird policy in place trying to get me to hop factions by an anti-player release schedule across all the waves.'

22 minutes ago, Ebak said:

Let's not push down the fact there's good new content coming out, but let's hope for good content and speculate on good content for other factions as well, but don't the NAME of the game as evidence to how OT deserves some kind of special treatment.

Sounds like your a bit less upset about this thread, and more about threads like these 'leaking' and making something that is a win for people who traditionally don't get a lot of wins outside of the context of 2.0 into a lose for people who, in contexts other than X-wing 2.0 get lots of wins regardless of their 2.0 status. Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, I definitely respect that. Not all advocation is healthy, even when its about a real problem, and I do think (like I hinted before) said leakage isn't healthy.

10 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Sounds like your a bit less upset about this thread, and more about threads like these 'leaking' and making something that is a win for people who traditionally don't get a lot of wins outside of the context of 2.0 into a lose for people who, in contexts other than X-wing 2.0 get lots of wins regardless of their 2.0 status. Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, I definitely respect that. Not all advocation is healthy, even when its about a real problem, and I do think (like I hinted before) said leakage isn't healthy.

Maybe, I did add a section above about it regarding the Extreme Maneuvers card and how Cloaker turned it from "Look at his cool new card" to "ugh, look at this card that overshadows my faction". Turning a negative into a positive. Granted the overshadowing is an issue in itself, but let people enjoy their toys, it's not even hit the table yet and it's already killed my excitement behind it to see people turning their noses up simply because it's not toys made specifically for them.

1 hour ago, Ebak said:

Honestly Cloaker, at this stage, I think you need to walk away for a break.

I'm kinda tired of seeing your negativity all over the place. I'm not saying your arguments about OT don't have merit, and I agree that Rebels and Imperials should get more expansion, but its become a constant thing to see you *****, moan and whine throwing your X-Wings on the floor like a petulant child because mommy and daddy are focusing on the baby right now rather than you.

I've also seen a lot of moaning, and very little problem solving or offering reasonable suggestions on what you want to see beyond the faction pack speculation which kinda shoots the argument of "nothing coming" in the foot.

I don't like being brutally honest like this, but I've kinda reached that point now.

Here's what I predict about tomorrow. We'll get an article about the V-Wing and with its configurations we'll get another topic or posts in the discussion topic from cloaker about how this is how the Z-95 should have been for Rebels and complaining how, yet again, the PT ships are getting more love than the ST ships.

The next week we'll see the Droid Tri Fighter and with its calculate sharing and 3 attack dice ship and spread of stats we'll get "This is what the E-Wing should have been" comments from Cloaker.

Finally, we'll see Zam's ability be very good on the Firespray for Scum only, and we'll once again have the usual suspects lamenting why she has to be a Separatist Firespray pilot and how she 'deserves' to be in Scum.

Now that we've gotten that all over with, can we just move on and not do any of the above?

Of course you've reached that point with me. Quit talking to my wife! But seriously dude, viewpoints that dare to debate outside your self imagined role as a gatekeeper of the game (and obviously the forums) have a tendency to trigger you, it's obvious when you endeavor to create an entire thread as a counterpoint to That Which You Do Not Agree With/Approve of.

But look, brother, that's totally cool. Debate is good. Venting perspectives is a legitimate sentiment, for both of us, right? It's unfortunate that you're tired of dialogue that you don't agree with, because usually that's the place where progress and understanding meet. But looking to make sophomoric, friction-inducing "predictions" of another forum poster and ramble and rant against Dez and Guac and me and your self declared need to enlist Jarval to keep you reasonable, well look man, to use your own logic in your own words;

"I'd prefer you to directly call me an idiot if you think that's the case than make some snarky remark"- Ebak 2020

But you know what, I ain't gonna do that. Cause, like, I actually dig some of your posts. You provoke some good ideas. Yeah, you go off the rails a bit sometimes with some self-righteousness, but we all do, that's part of being a passionate gamer and interacting with the online community. Man, I'm hurting as a OT player in the game I love right now, admittedly. I want shiny new things. I want a world of cool fresh options and pilots--with second edition release and hyperspace validation---not just for me, but for........ (cue Gary Oldman Professional Voice)

So I get it. My frustration and despair, I've been a bit public with. It ain't pretty to look at and deal with. It's coming from a good place, I promise. I just, I don't know.... need to vent a little. Ok, a lot. But don't subversively seek to run me out of the game. Don't tell me to take a break. We don't want to have to tell prospective new players that only want to play hyperspace OT stuff that, do we? To take a break? That's actually usually when most relationships start to end. And personally, I am too ******* far down into this pew pew rabbit hole to give up yet. I just need....

That's all I got. Peace out