6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Those can't be taken as given. A lot of people feel that most higher initiative ships are underpriced, and also that the force is underpriced. Given the rounds of nerfs, It's clear there's been a lot of time in X-Wing where it's true the costs paid by folks with these advantages (High Init, Force, Pre-Dial Repositioning, Regen) have been too low given the benefits provided.

That is to say, disproportionate advantages . Not instant win, but an advantage out of proportion with the in-game cost.

In addition, core systems also can artificially inflate things so that they are better than you would expect at a given price point. A big reason aces tend to be seen in all aces lists is the objective of X-wing is always to score as many points via kills and give up as few as possible, and aces 'scale' in number in this regard. A lone ace with a swarm backing them up still loses MOV to the swarm and gains less advantage from dodging because its less likely the swarm can dodge with it, defending points. Meanwhile, tri-aces are all very capable of doing just that, protecting MOV by denying the enemy the ability to interact at all. Aces get stronger the more MOV you can put behind aces, and weaker the less, which creates this weird effect where Vader is probably over-costed in the context of flying alongside say... a miniswarm, but undercosted in the context of flying next to Soontir and Whisper.

Its also possible for strategies to be 'balanced' but not 'fair.' Classic example is regen Delta-7s, which were actually not a very strong list, but their strategy was very NPE because it turned the game into one of keep away where you didn't just deny interaction, but made the game a complete grind. By all accounts that list needed a buff if it was purely about mechanical balance, but points aren't just about mechanical balance, but what the game 'should be about.' And it really shouldn't be about regenning 7Bs. So despite the Delta-7B-droid combo being 'not worth the points' it still deserved to be nerfed out of being a list that even approached being real. AKA "Dashing them."

Oh, and lastly some things might just have weird interactions with core systems that create bad outcomes. The very well known fact that ace vs ace mirror matches suck and create weird nonsense with the bid is a fantastic example: The initiative system really breaks down when both players super care about initiative and all their important initiative values are the same, and aces being a strategy makes this extremely likely because the strategy is defined by planning everything around being I5 and I6 and having your opponent have the initaitive. If all aces lists were outliers and it was more optimal to mix aces in lists, it would help reduce how critical bids are.

But yeah, a big issue with aces is a lot of the aces were very obviously undercosted for a long time. Which makes some sense, aces sell platforms and encourage people to collect new ones, and aces are super evocative and show off the initiative system that helps make X-wing a unique game. So its hard to advocate to a nerf to tri-aces and maybe tri-aces leaving the game as a staple list due to the problems they can cause for the game. People LIKE aces. I have to admit flying Boba, despite finding him the most miserable unfun piece to fly against myself due to how he warped the entire meta around himself, was really REALLY fun. This is also why people FREAK OUT any time a new tool enters the game that might hurt aces, or constantly advocate against anti-ace tech like Torps. So FFG has to be very delicate when dealing with the 'Ace problem.'

On 10/9/2020 at 8:43 PM, dezzmont said:

The initiative system really breaks down when both players super care about initiative and all their important initiative values are the same, and aces being a strategy makes this extremely likely because the strategy is defined by planning everything around being I5 and I6 and having your opponent have the initaitive. If all aces lists were outliers and it was more optimal to mix aces in lists, it would help reduce how critical bids are.

Points spent on a bid i.e. a better chance to choose when you move upgrade need to be scorable without needing to destroy the entire list. They need to be "on the table" just like any other upgrade. If Soontir needs a bid upgrade a player who only kills or half-points Soontir should be able to score the points or half-points Soontir spent on his bid upgrade just like a player would on any of Soontir's card upgrades.

Aces list protect points by keeping them off the table but they've spent those points and got something for those points even though they are not on the table like they would be if a bid were thought of as a type of upgrade.

7 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Points spent on a bid i.e. a better chance to choose when you move upgrade need to be scorable without needing to destroy the entire list. They need to be "on the table" just like any other upgrade. If Soontir needs a bid upgrade a player who only kills or half-points Soontir should be able to score the points or half-points Soontir spent on his bid upgrade just like a player would on any of Soontir's card upgrade

I agree.

A bid is essentially both an upgrade AND a statement of 'I don't need these points to beat you.' I would say the bid should just start scored, which helps a lot of points fortressing problems like Fenn-Boba. A big problem of some of the 'mega defender' lists of last points update was so many points were off the table that that a list with a 100+ point pilot only needed to kill 1 ship and half another vs a bunch of lists to secure the win, and then they would fly so defensively that trying to earn it back would just increase the MoV.

Starting 'behind' also does good things to aces lists in that it forces them to 'catch up' and puts the onus of the first engagement onto them, rather than refusing to act unless they know its very safe. If an Ace player refuses to ever take a move they can't hedge on with their reposition, they should lose: They have more control over engagements, they need to utilize that to engage correctly, rather than to deny interaction, and if they refuse to engage, they are basically saying 'I can't do it' and deserve the L.

Problem is that might make a meta of 0 bid strategies which means that aces lists now have a big advantage vs middle or lower initaitive lists. Ultimately I think a single list going for all I5 and I6 is just kinda boring anyway, if an inevitable result of the MoV rules.