Once saw a Thrawn list at a casual tournament (this was about a week before the flotilla nerve) with a ton of the red dice gozantis and 1 isd I beleive. The player would use all 3 of thrawns dials to con fire and then the gozantis would kill u by death by a thousand cuts. Didn't play against it personally just saw it.

I like it just because the overreliance on special characters in FFG TT miniature games annoys me to boot. Coming from GW I just enjoy cobbling together my own generics. More power to them!!!

On 9/28/2020 at 4:22 PM, Revan Reborn said:

For those who aren't aware, FFG revealed that they are amending Armada's rules concerned Squadrons, wherein only 1 Squadron with defense tokens will be permitted per 100-points in a match. Therefore, for standard 400-points matches, there will only be 4 squadrons with defense tokens -- commonly referred to as "Ace" squadrons -- and any other squadrons will have to be generics or Unique squadrons (without def. tokens).

This is an interesting change to Armada's squadron rules, which should dramatically effect competitive play, because competitive players tend to use Ace squadrons over generics. I've observed many Finals matches and have noticed that the majority of points were earned from killing squadrons, because Aces are expensive, rather than destroying enemy ships. Of course, ships do get destroyed, but they tend to be small, less expensive ships, which can be outweighed by the loss of multiple Aces.

I admit that I tended to favour Aces over generics because I'm primarily an Imperial faction player, and Ace TIE Fighters and Interceptors have Scatter, which usually allows them to survive longer than generic TIEs. Now I will need to adapt my fleet builds to reduce the number of Aces that I use, which will consequently effect the number of squadrons that I will need to activate. So this change has ripple effects on existing builds.

I think it's safe to say that the Republic and Separatist factions will have the easiest time adapting to the new rule because we don't have established Clone Wars builds, and the factions are just starting out and have far fewer Aces compared to the Empire and Rebels. Although, FFG has admitted that the Clone Wars Squadron packs will contain more Ace squadrons than previous Squadron Packs, which always had 1 Ace and 1 generic. More Aces are welcome, but the new rules will obviously limit our choices.

The only downside of this change that I foresee is that squadron-heavy builds will contain significantly more squadrons because generics are cheaper, and the more squadrons that are in a match, the longer that match tends to last. Armada matches aren't renowned for being fast-paced. So if the average Armada match lasts 1.5-3 hours now, it's possible that could increase to 2-4+ hours after CWA, which could turn off players and cause problems in tournament-play, which often get cut short by time restrictions.

I wonder if FFG has developed new rules or procedures that could speed-up squadrons gameplay?

As for the Empire and Rebels, I expect to see more "carrier" ships used after CWA is released. I'm fortunate that I own multiple Quasar Fire light carriers, so I can adapt to using more generic squadrons. However, I anticipate that there will be a sudden spike in demand for Quasars, ISDs, MC80s, and Peltas. I hope that FFG will be re-stocking those ship expansions in the near-future.

One of the changes that I anticipate is that certain Aces that were formerly "auto-includes" might be dropped because of the 4 Ace Limit.

For example, will Imperial players continue to pair Jendon with Maarek Stele? My prediction is that Jendon will only be included if the other 2 squadrons will greatly benefit from activating twice, such as Boba Fett, Mauler Mithel (assuming he can Move), Morna Kee, and IG-88.

Similarly, will Dengar and Jan Ors be used as often? Or will players switch to the generic JumpMaster and HWK-290 to use Intel?

Can you think of other Aces that might be less popular, or suddenly more popular, when the new 4 Ace squadron limit is introduced with CWA?

What's the source for this information?

59 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

What's the source for this information?

The Steel Strategy podcast interview with dev Michael Gernes.

This is such a lazy fix, they should just have repriced the squadrons instead, most of the currently used aces could have a 50% price increase and still be usable. The only thing this "fixes" is the sloane ball, not even reeikan aces will be stopped by this.

44 minutes ago, asperon said:

This is such a lazy fix, they should just have repriced the squadrons instead, most of the currently used aces could have a 50% price increase and still be usable. The only thing this "fixes" is the sloane ball, not even reeikan aces will be stopped by this.

Sloane ball doesn’t get fixed. RHD meant people have been bringing a mix of aces and generic interceptors anyway.

I guess it stops you from running multiple power combos.

1 hour ago, asperon said:

This is such a lazy fix, they should just have repriced the squadrons instead, most of the currently used aces could have a 50% price increase and still be usable. The only thing this "fixes" is the sloane ball, not even reeikan aces will be stopped by this.

I'm not opposed to a squadron point change, but what squadrons would you give a 50% point increase?

And besides, we don't know what most of other the changes are.

2 hours ago, asperon said:

This is such a lazy fix, they should just have repriced the squadrons instead, most of the currently used aces could have a 50% price increase and still be usable. The only thing this "fixes" is the sloane ball, not even reeikan aces will be stopped by this.

Perhaps someday. Let's see what all the actual changes are. There are Commander Upgrades being repriced, perhaps some squadrons are as well?

Not to mention the sheer amount of back-end work to reprice every squadron to be balanced with every potential combo and upgrade would be staggering. Asking that from a team that was in the middle of designing two entirely new factions seems like a lot. I'm impressed they managed a new-faction wave and the card pack at the same time to be honest.

1 hour ago, Alzer said:

Perhaps someday. Let's see what all the actual changes are. There are Commander Upgrades being repriced, perhaps some squadrons are as well?

Not to mention the sheer amount of back-end work to reprice every squadron to be balanced with every potential combo and upgrade would be staggering. Asking that from a team that was in the middle of designing two entirely new factions seems like a lot. I'm impressed they managed a new-faction wave and the card pack at the same time to be honest.

I think they stated that they were not changing or updating squadrons are this time.

2 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I think they stated that they were not changing or updating squadrons are this time.

I haven't heard anything that absolute. What's the source?

Edit: That would also seem to contradict Gernes interview, which told us about the ace cap...that's a significant change to squadrons.

3 hours ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I think they stated that they were not changing or updating squadrons are this time.

1 hour ago, Bertie Wooster said:

I haven't heard anything that absolute. What's the source?

Edit: That would also seem to contradict Gernes interview, which told us about the ace cap...that's a significant change to squadrons.

It's an educated guess. FFG brings a card pack with some 18% changed upgrade cards and they said it's upgrade cards only . (And these 18% include errata we already know.) If they would want to alter some squadrons they could have brought them together with the upgrade cards collection. (Same card size from now on.)

The @ninclouse2000 statement doesn't contradict the interview. Gernes talked about changes to game mechanics like the pass rule or squadron cap and ninclouse was talking about point changes to aces. I'm quite sure that won't come with "Armada 1.5". And I don't mind. In my eyes, we don't need dramatic point changes for squadrons.

2 hours ago, Bertie Wooster said:

I haven't heard anything that absolute. What's the source?

Edit: That would also seem to contradict Gernes interview, which told us about the ace cap...that's a significant change to squadrons.

I just was referring to errata it’s point changes to aces. I think they were asked and they said they were not messing with squadrons at this time.

23 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I just was referring to errata it’s point changes to aces. I think they were asked and they said they were not messing with squadrons at this time.

Ah okay. I misunderstood.

23 hours ago, Alzer said:

I'm impressed they managed a new-faction wave and the card pack at the same time to be honest.

To be fair... they had a lot of time between releases...

On 10/5/2020 at 10:40 AM, Alzer said:

Perhaps someday. Let's see what all the actual changes are. There are Commander Upgrades being repriced, perhaps some squadrons are as well?

Not to mention the sheer amount of back-end work to reprice every squadron to be balanced with every potential combo and upgrade would be staggering. Asking that from a team that was in the middle of designing two entirely new factions seems like a lot. I'm impressed they managed a new-faction wave and the card pack at the same time to be honest.

I expect that Squadron (and Ship) points changes are coming, but for whatever reason, FFG is waiting on updating ships and squadrons. I suspect that FFG wants to do a softer, more gradual "1.5" update for Armada, because they think it will be less controversial and face less backlash than imposing a hard "2.0" update, similar to X-Wing Second Edition. That's why they're doing the Upgrade Card Collection first, and supposedly releasing updated ship/squadron cards later -- at least that's what they've implied is going to happen in the near-future.

I'm undecided whether the better approach is to restrict the number of Ace Squadrons to 1 per 100 points, or to increase the cost of Ace Squadrons so that they're prohibitively expensive, making players gravitate toward more affordable generic squadrons instead.

I have a feeling that the Jedi Aces in the Clone Wars might be so powerful that FFG had to impose the new rules to keep the game balanced, and that when the existing squadrons have their points -- and perhaps abilities -- updated, it will all work out.

14 hours ago, EBerling said:

To be fair... they had a lot of time between releases...

Yup. Armada has a reasonably slow release cycle. I'm still floored we got 3 releases in a 6 month period last year. If they get CW out in December it will have only been 10 months. Far from the longest dry spell the game has had. Keep in mind that there isn't a whole team dedicated to just working on Armada. Add that to the staff cuts in January (I think? Seems so long ago) and we may have a little longer between releases as they reorganize.

Personally I enjoy the slower pace of releases. Lets folks really branch out and get inventive with combos and builds each wave. It took months for Thrawn to be figured out. Lets folks get comfortable with the meta. I've played wargames that got into rapid release schedules where the meta was in constant flux and really did not enjoy it. Having to read up on 6-10 nee releases every month and a new faction every year to stay competitive in a game (not to mention playing against them, and figuring out combos in your own faction) can get exhausting.

New releases every 6-8 months would certainly be preferable in my opinion. But I'm willing to grant them an extra couple months for something so significant as two whole new factions, plus the followup wave to round them out a bit (and whatever else may be in the pipe we don't know about, only the Devs and producers know the actual timelines for the processes).

On 10/2/2020 at 11:11 AM, lunitic501 said:

Once saw a Thrawn list at a casual tournament (this was about a week before the flotilla nerve) with a ton of the red dice gozantis and 1 isd I beleive. The player would use all 3 of thrawns dials to con fire and then the gozantis would kill u by death by a thousand cuts. Didn't play against it personally just saw it.

Me and another friend had both just bought and designed similar Gozanti super soaker lists like two days before the nerf came down 😂 man I was sooooo bummed 😓

21 hours ago, Alzer said:

Personally I enjoy the slower pace of releases. Lets folks really branch out and get inventive with combos and builds each wave. It took months for Thrawn to be figured out. Lets folks get comfortable with the meta. I've played wargames that got into rapid release schedules where the meta was in constant flux and really did not enjoy it. Having to read up on 6-10 nee releases every month and a new faction every year to stay competitive in a game (not to mention playing against them, and figuring out combos in your own faction) can get exhausting.

Armada's slower pace of releases is the most likely explanation for why it is the least popular of FFG's 3 best selling Star Wars IPs.

X-Wing and Legion benefit from a steady stream of promotion because new expansions are (usually) released every 3-4 months, and at least once a month, a new article is posted on FFG's website about an upcoming or newly released X-Wing or Legion product, which also provides YouTube and internet content creators new things to talk about, giving those games more free promotion, spreading awareness, boosting sales, and growing the games' player community.

Whereas Armada often suffers from months of radio silence from FFG; and in recent years, Armada news has been restricted to GenCon and... nothing -- until whatever was revealed at GenCon is released months later. When Armada was first released, there were at least 2 Waves per year. Then there was an 18-month drought between Wave 7 in January 2018 and the release of the SSD in August 2019. Ever since then, the Armada community acts like they're content with only one release per year, because that's all FFG/Asmodee is providing.

One Armada Wave per year does give the Armada player community plenty of time to thoroughly play with the expansions and figure them out, but it does little to spread awareness of Armada and attract new players to the game, which is bad for business and bad for the Armada community.

X-Wing and Legion players don't seem to mind the faster pace of releases and constantly evolving META -- in fact, Legion players were very upset and vocal about the disappointment and frustration when some of the expansions were delayed earlier this year. If anyone in the X-Wing or Legion communities tried to advocate for reducing the number and frequency of the releases, they'd be resoundingly shouted down because they don't want that -- and neither does FFG/Asmodee.

Both X-Wing and Legion are thriving , so a compelling argument can be made that more frequent product releases are better for the games; and there's no evidence this wouldn't be true with Armada -- even if some players might complain about it.

Because IF FFG/Asmodee released 3 or 4 Waves of Clone Wars products in 2021 and got every canon Clone Wars ship and squadron into the game in a single year, and the game suddenly became as popular and commercially successful as X-Wing and Legion, would anyone really have a problem with that?

I don't think so.

And would FFG/Asmodee would really care if some Armada players didn't like the fast pace of Clone Wars Armada releases, as long as Armada was popular and selling?

I don't think so either.

The only way to know for certain is if FFG/Asmodee ramps up Armada's release schedule for Clone Wars Waves. IMO the Republic and Separatist factions need as many expansions as quickly as possible so they have enough variety of ship and squadrons and Commanders to ensure that they're competitive with the Empire and Rebel factions.

For example, based on what's been revealed about the Clone Wars Starters and Squadron packs, only the Separatist faction will have a ship with the Fleet Support slot and a squadron with the Relay keyword for the launch of CWA. The Republic doesn't appear to have either of those options. So a slow pace of CWA Waves would place the Republic faction at a distinct disadvantage, which isn't fair to prospective Republic players.

Personally, I want to try both the Republic and Separatist factions, and I want as much Clone Wars Armada content as FFG/Asmodee can provide. I'm also eager for more Empire and Rebel content, because I enjoy playing those factions too.

So, FFG...

😁 🤑 😎

12 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Me and another friend had both just bought and designed similar Gozanti super soaker lists like two days before the nerf came down 😂 man I was sooooo bummed 😓

The on game I played against IF Gozanti spam I was trying Early Warning System. My opponent was not pleased.

I guess in response to the original topic. I prefer to have more generics than Aces. It's always felt more thematic and looks good on the table to have more squads. I think the highest Ace count I ever ran was 5-6 or so, and very rarely in competition at that. I am looking forward to having less bubble effects and (hopefully) seeing more diversity in squad builds.

I can't even remember what the list had in it it was so long ago. I just remember we had figured out some other really gimpy way to win with an objectives set. It was basically imp-fish if I remember right. EWS would have been rough though. Like I don't even remember if it had Thrown. 🤔 Was he even out then? Man it's been so long.

On 10/5/2020 at 4:14 PM, Bertie Wooster said:

I'm not opposed to a squadron point change, but what squadrons would you give a 50% point increase?

This is a long list, but almost all aces that see play today, sure, for some it might be a point or two to much, but for most it would be fine, they are just that good (and now i am comparing to the generics of each type, not compared to each other or anything like that).

A 50% increase in price for all ace squadrons is a reckless suggestion, to say the least. Solo isn’t even usually worth it at 26 points. Would you pay 39 for him? An egregious example, obviously, but you get the point. And just jacking up the popular guys like Maarek Stele doesn’t work, because then guys like Solo become an absolute bargain.

I kinda wish they’d just gone a different direction, maybe making it so aces’ defense tokens can never be readied, or something of that nature. We’re probably too far down the road to make that change now, but it would’ve probably been better if that’s where they’d started at launch.

As for the “one ace per 100 points” rule: I’m afraid all we’ll ever see from now on is Morna/Maarek/Jendon/? and Jan/Biggs/?/?. Not sure this is way better than what we have now. Or even if it’s better at all.

51 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

A 50% increase in price for all ace squadrons is a reckless suggestion, to say the least. Solo isn’t even usually worth it at 26 points. Would you pay 39 for him? An egregious example, obviously, but you get the point. And just jacking up the popular guys like Maarek Stele doesn’t work, because then guys like Solo become an absolute bargain.

I kinda wish they’d just gone a different direction, maybe making it so aces’ defense tokens can never be readied, or something of that nature. We’re probably too far down the road to make that change now, but it would’ve probably been better if that’s where they’d started at launch.

As for the “one ace per 100 points” rule: I’m afraid all we’ll ever see from now on is Morna/Maarek/Jendon/? and Jan/Biggs/?/?. Not sure this is way better than what we have now. Or even if it’s better at all.

you noticed that is said "for the squadrons that are acctually played", there are a bunch of aces that nobody plays in tournaments, these could stay the same (or even drop in price).

6 hours ago, asperon said:

you noticed that is said "for the squadrons that are acctually played", there are a bunch of aces that nobody plays in tournaments, these could stay the same (or even drop in price).

I addressed that as well. Just jacking up the price of popular squadrons like Lando, for example, doesn’t really work, because then guys like Han completely outclass them. Imagine Lando at 150% of his current cost... he’d be 34 points (!), which makes Han Solo look like an absolute steal at 26. So then we’re left with everyone playing Han, and nobody playing Lando (or worse, nobody playing either of them).

The fact is that there are a few squadrons (and a few—maybe many—other cards in the game) which can (and should) be rebalanced by shaving a few points here and adding a few points there, but slapping a 50% increase on the popularly used squadrons is not remotely close to where the points adjustments should start.

Personally, I think the whole thing should be rebalanced by taking all of the ships, squadrons, and upgrades in the game and costing them online, removing the physical cost from the card entirely. That’s how X-Wing ended up doing it for 2.0, and when I first started playing that game six months ago, I was shocked and dismayed at first, but within a couple weeks I thought it looked like a pretty neat system, and after experiencing a points adjustment, am now fully convinced that it’s definitely what needs to happen in Armada.

Online-only costing allows for a lot of wiggle-room in design, because if they happen to get a cost wrong at first, they can fix it almost immediately (or, as X-Wing tends to do it, every six months).

“Everyone thinks Tarkin sucks at 38 points, and won’t play him? Let’s try him at 24. He’s pretty strong at 24? Ok, we’ll let him be good for a while, but if he gets oppressive, we’ll put him at 27 for a cycle, and see if he’s still used.”

“The Suppression Refit Interdictor killing it at 90 points, but nobody’s playing a Combat Refit at 93? Let’s make the Combat Refit cost 84, see if that doesn’t grab people’s attention.”

“We’re having a hard time making Rieekan balanced. Maybe he’s just a flawed mechanic that breaks the game and dominates tournaments? Let’s just shelve him for a while at 53 points, while we figure out how to fix him.”

“Hmm, turns out that Disposable Capacitors are really sort of low-key necessary on about half the Imperial Fleet, while the Rebels don’t need them at all, so the Imps end up paying a 9-15 point tax on a lot of their fleets. Maybe we oughtta try putting D-Caps down to just 1 point, see if it gives the Empire a bit more listbuilding flexibility.”

”The CR-90A is just everywhere these days. We don’t want to nuke it, but maybe if we just bumped it up a couple points, it would be less prevalent. Let’s see it at 46 points for a cycle.”

Not only does this fix a ton of problems, it creates excitement for the new points a couple of times a year. And let’s face it: with the average release schedule of Armada over the last few years, some buzz every six months or so would do the game some good!

For Rebels:

Dash/Lando/Ketsu/Mart Mattin(?) for 91pts Rogue

Jan/Biggs/3 X-wings/Norra for 94 pts

Maybe Hera/Shara/Tycho/+1(?) is 64+? for good Rogue screening

For Imperials

MMJ is probably still the gold standard.

But a Tel/Dengar/Howl/Mauler+LNs or INTs might make an appearance.