I just wanted to go over the Republic AT-RT and explain why I think it’s hot garbage. I know that’s contrary to the consensus, but let’s see if I can’t change your mind.

To explain, I will be comparing the Republic version to the Rebel version, and I’ll try to explain why I think the Rebel version works and the Republic version decidedly does not.

First we can pretty much exclude everything that is identical in both version, but as they are worth mentioning, let’s get at her:

Both units have the same upgrade slots (Hardpoint and Comms) and have the same upgrade cards available at the same price.

Both units have Armour, Climbing Vehicle, and Expert Climber, all of witch help the RT stay on the table and give it versatility in movement. Without full Armour, the RT would not be on the table for long. The RT only has 6 health and a white defence die. If you haven’t seen an RT get one shotted, then you’ve lived a very sheltered life, as it’s not an uncommon occurrence, and with the amount of Critical now out there, not to mention the ever ubiquitous DLT from Stormtroopers with Impact 1, the RT stands little chance with full Armour, never mind with partial or none. For those of you who would like to see the RT make sense, I do agree at least in principle, but a movie accurate RT would probably run more like Tauntauns and nobody wants that, so moving on.

Both RTs have 6 Health, 4 Resilience and a melee weapon that has 3 red with Impact 1 and a decent Movement of 2.

Now we’ll look at the differences:

The native ranged weapon of the Rebel RT is range 1-3, 2 white dice, but the Republic RT has range 1-3, 2 white, 1 black, Critical 1 and Impact 1. Now this might seem like a huge difference, but to spend 65 points on a unit that only rolls 3 dice (and not good dice at that), isn’t very feasible. A Phase 2 unit of Clone Troopers only costs 60 points, can Fire support and gives a Surge Token that can be shared every round, or you can get a Phase 1 unit for 52 points, but both units will roll 4 black. Granted, the RT native ranged weapon has some nice keywords, but when you think the other two options can cap an objective and a naked RT won’t draw fire from troopers (a good reason to take an RT) cause it can’t do much in the way of damage, you can see a lack of value here. It is important to note that there have been some that have taken a naked Rebel RT or two into tournaments and have done fairly well with them, but against a player of equal or higher skill you just won’t be able to get away with those shenanigans, since any attempt to move the RT into melee range will cause focus fire on the RT and also the Rebel version is cheaper which makes such a play a little more viable, but we’ll get to that in a moment. The main thing is, most RT’s will use the upgrade from its Hardpoint and any native weapons will be ignored, so why the upgraded weapon? It’s like putting lipstick on a pig. Just a gimmick to make the Republic version look different from the Rebel version and it was one of the Dev’s worst ideas imho.

The Republic RT has Scout 1, a nice addition to the RT, or any mechanized unit in general, but let’s be real, we are talking about a 2 point upgrade on any other unit. This upgrade may be nice, but why add it? Again, I think Scout 1 was added just to give differences to the two units and Scout 1 and the native ranged weapon upgrade just do not warrant a 10 point increase imo. Both the ranged weapon and Scout 1 are the lipstick on this particular pig, don’t be fooled.

Lastly there is the native surges and price of each RT and they should probably be talked about in the same point. The Rebel RT comes in at 55 points, but the Republic RT comes in a full 10 points higher at 65 points. As I mentioned, the native weapon upgrade and Scout 1 should not increase the point cost that much as they’re mainly cosmetic, especially when the native weapon won’t even be used. So that brings us to the Surges. The Rebel RT only has a Surge to Crit and no defensive surge, but the Republic RT has Surge to Hit and a Surge to Defence. Removing Surge to Crit from the RT is huge and was the main attribute that makes the Rebel version viable. Normally the Rotary Cannon is taken for the RT which is 5 black dice. When people talk about the Rebel version, they talk about 5 black dice like you’re rolling the same dice pool as an AT-ST, but in truth they’re only rolling 1 more die than a naked Rebel Trooper or Phase 1 or 2 Trooper, or even Shore Trooper. When a naked trooper unit is talked about, they’re just considered padding, something to cap a back objective or increase the army’s unit count. Those units are not considered a threat, so what is it about the Rebel RT, that would illicit such respect? The Surge to Crit of course. Normally 5 black dice only have a 50% chance per die of getting a hit which would mean 2.5 average hits per roll of that dice pool. That may or may not (depending if you roll over or under average) even get past heavy cover. Adding Surge to Crit not only increase that average from 2.5 to 3.125 average hits per roll, but it doubles your chance of rolling criticals that get through cover and dodges. With that average of 3.125, it’s not just 1 past cover, but a possibility of more. This makes the Rebel RT not only good, but dangerous, though this doesn’t mean that a critical will be rolled on every attack, but the possibilities are there. Now look at the Republic version and Surge to Hit. That gives the unit 3.125 average hits per die pool roll, and only 1 past heavy cover. The Republic version has no greater chance of a critical than a naked trooper unit and with the amount of Surges available from the ubiquitous Aggressive Tactics upgrade and the Phase 2’s natural ability, what does an 85 point RT have over a 60 point naked unit of P2s? And that brings us to the Republic RT’s Surge to Defence. Is Surge to Defence equal to a 10 point increase over the Rebel RT? Surge to Defence does double the chances of rolling a block on a white defence die, but it should be pointed out that a white attack die with any kind of native surge has a 37.5% chance of hitting, and a white defence die with surge has a 33.3(repeating)% chance of defending. Attack dice always have a better chance than defence dice, or few units would be removed from the table. The true question is, is the Surge to Defence equal to or better than the difference between Surge to Crit and Surge to Hit (by about 10 points)? It’s true, the Republic version will have better staying power than the Rebel RT, but in that extra amount of time that the Republic RT is on the board, can it do equal or more damage than a Rebel RT would do in its limited time on the board? With only 3.125 average hits per roll and an average 1 hit through heavy cover, I’d say no. So why the extra 10 points? Is that the price of lipstick? Now it’s important to mention the argument that many have raised that a Republic RT with Surge to Crit would be broken when combined with Clone Trooper’s Fire Support, and that’s a fair point, it would be broken. But why wasn’t the Republic RT’s Rotary Cannons given Critical 2 or even 3, to cover any Surges rolled by its dice and not cover any dice rolled by Fire Support? Was the Republic RT only meant to be good when it was Fire Supported so that it’s Surge to Hit can come in useful? The truth is the Republic already has a unit that can do that, the BARC (which is over priced imho, but that’s another deep dive). So what the Republic RT is, is a confused mess, that is far too overpriced compared to any trooper unit that can be taken, and if there is a choice between taking the Republic RT or a Trooper unit or an ARC Stike Team, take the Trooper or ARCs 100% of the time.

Now it’s important to mention the Flamthrower Hardpoint upgrade. I will not even talk about the Laser Cannon, which I don’t think justifies its existence on either version of the RT. With a Flamethrower added to the Republic RT and its Surge to Defence, it may have the staying power to reach enemy trooper units to get off one or two attacks before being focused on out of existence. The Rebel version struggled with the Flamer upgrade and though some people did have some success with them, it was still hit or miss. I will admit, it’s unclear to me if the Republic RT and it’s defensive surge would be much better. I will leave that analysis to the numbers people, though if the Republic Flamer version is that much better, it will be a question of whether the RT can clear enough enemy points to equal its cost of 85 points before it is put down. If the Republic Flamer RT can take out enough enemy points on average to justify its existence, then it is relegated to being a Flamer unit and only a Flamer unit, but that still needs to be tested.

What could have been done differently and can the 10 point extra cost be justified. IMO, keeping the surge to hit, but adding Critical 2 or 3 to the Rotary Cannon May justify the extra cost. Without changing anything, I don’t think there is a way to justify the cost and even with it’s upgraded native weapon and Scout 1, it needs to be reduced 10 points to be viable. I know that makes the Republic RT with Surge to Defence, a better native ranged weapon and Scout 1, equal to the Republic version in points (75 points), but let’s look at other options right now in the Republic army. A Phase 2 Trooper unit with a Z-6 is 87 points which is 2 points higher than the current points of the Republic RT @ 85 points (with Hardpoint), but the P2s can cap objectives, share green tokens, gain a Surge Token each round, can Fire Support and have a stellar dice pool. Why would anyone take an RT that’s not going to live long (cause it’s a Flamer and needs to move in close) or doesn’t do a lot of damage (1 point on average past heavy cover) over the trooper unit? Or let’s even look at the reduced cost if the Republic RT cost as much as the Rebel (with Hardpoint @ 75 points). The Phase 1 Clone Troopers with Z-6 cost 77 points, again 2 points more than a reduced RT. P1s can do everything P2s can do with the exception of gaining a Surge, so is the 10 point reduction even worth it? I don’t think it is. Now I know there are some shouting at their computer screen, “it’s because the Republic units are too good”. First, I don’t think so, but that is an argument for another time. I am only talking about the RT currently and as many like to point out when one faction’s unit is cheaper than another despite both units being very comparable, “you must think of how that unit fits into each army when determining point values”. The only thing that can currently fix the Republic RT is by adding Critical 2 or 3 to the Rotary Cannon upgrade and even then it may need to drop in points by 5 (say Critical 3 - no drop in points, and Critical 2 - drop 5 points). Other than that we’re talking about a slightly better Flamer unit that isn’t taken often, especially competitively.

Anyway, that’s just my views. Did I change your mind, or do you still think the Republic RT is an awesome weapons platform? Did I miss something in my musings? Do you agree with my assessment and analysis, or did I miss or overstate some things. Let me know what you think, but please fly casual and remain polite. If you really like the Republic RT and you want to use it, my words shouldn’t stop you. Enjoy the units you want to enjoy, no matter what others think, but those others are entitled to have a differing opinion, so please try to be respectful. Remember, it’s not just what you say, it’s how you say it too. Peace. ✌️ ☮️

Edit and apology: My apologies to anyone who was interested or curious of this post and found my sniping comment. Not as an excuse, but as explanation, I over reacted to some haters. I have simply added the main issue to my ignore list. Again sorry about that, just got a little fed up. The original post has been re-entered if you’re still interested. And as far as one shotting a Republic RT, no it’s not common, but as someone who has had 3 of their own get one shotted (and no not all in one game either) and witnessed 2 other players’ RTs meet the same fate, and having heard still others complain of said phenomenon, it may not be common place, but not it’s not “winning the Lottery” rare either or even as rare as the RT detractors would like you to believe. Or dam I need buy some lotto tickets now!

I think it boils down to rebels and clones as very different armies. Rebel corps and special forces (mostly) are very fragile and will lose models easily. At-rt is a pretty stable fire support unit that keeps shooting it's full amount despite having 5 wounds (unless unlucky vehicle dmg ofc). I disagree with at-rt being fragile and often one shot. 2 shot maybe, but despite playing alot of at-rt's I have never seen anyone roll the 7+ crits needed to destroy it in one go. In two attacks though, it can go boom.

For clones the standard corps are space marine levels of strong with much harder defence, solid offence and the amazing clone trooper keyword. The only thing their at-rt got is a slightly better base weapon and surge-block. However they don't need a fire support unit the same way as rebel troopers. They can do it on their own and use token sharing to increase their power even further. Also surge-hit makes the rotary blaster less effective as you pointed out and it's the best weapon IMO since it works on most targets.

Laser and flamer are such a risk weapon since you never sure what you will face. Honestly you should get to equip whatever hard point you want when deploying to make them less risky IMO.

So I agree the clone at-rt isn't that great for clones, but it would be a solid unit for rebels. It would stay longer on the board and I rather take that than surge-crit. It can stay alive and cover my rebels. However Clones are probably better off getting a second clone unit. It's an internal balance problem more than external.

Stormtroopers one shotting AT-RTs with DLTs? huh? Your complaints about the AT-RT are completely unfounded. Especially when GAR is notorious for one shotting other factions' units off the board with their own corps units.

it takes five turns for a full Stormtrooper unit with a DLT to kill an AT-RT on average. And if youre saying multiple Stormtrooper units with DLTs shouldnt be able to take down an AT-RT, why shouldnt they? Its multiple units and each Stormtrooper unit costs nearly as much as an AT-RT. An AT-RT is little more than a clonetrooper on a metal hobby horse yet you think it should be completely impervious to multiple units of Stormtroopers worth several times its own point cost?

AT-RTs are plenty survivable how they are. If anything theyre too survivable and shouldnt have better armor than a AT-ST; the driver is completely exposed! Yet somehow the enclosed backside of an AT-ST is a weakpoint? how does that make any sense?

GAR AT-RTs are better than Rebel AT-RTs in every way except cost. And getting scout 1, surge on defense, and a better base weapon for only 10 points is a BARGAIN. Not to mention it gets all the advantages of being a GAR unit baked in like being able to share tokens with it via exemplar or being able to fire support it. Rebels would love to have any of those advantages on their AT-RTs and would gladly pay extra points for them.

The GAR AT-RT is very good compared to the Rebel AT-RT. GAR players are just spoiled by how amazing their corps units are. They think nuking things off the board in one turn is the norm. So they expect all their units to be able to do the same thing. Which is exactly why their corps units need to be nerfed so they learn to appreciate their other units more.

Thats my deep dive. That GAR is a shallow faction because its corps units overshadow everything else.

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So what the Republic RT is, is a confused mess, that is far too overpriced compared to any trooper unit that can be taken, and if there is a choice between taking the Republic RT or a Trooper unit or an ARC Stike Team, take the Trooper or ARCs 100% of the time.

Yeah thats not it at all. Because Rebels use AT-RTs competitively and Rebels would gladly pay the 10 extra points for all of the extra advantages GAR's AT-RT gets. The defensive surge alone would be worth 10 extra points for the 25% increase in expected survivability it gives. But for those 10 points you not only get the defensive surge but also scout-1 and a better base weapon.

Any other faction would love to have GAR's AT-RT and they would gladly pay 85 points for it. You are way off with your assessment.

In actuality the problem is GAR's trooper units and the fact theyre far too underpriced for them to ever consider taking more fairly costed units like the AT-RT. Your mistake was assuming clonetroopers and arctroopers were costed correctly and then comparing the AT-RT to them.

27 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I think it boils down to rebels and clones as very different armies. Rebel corps and special forces (mostly) are very fragile and will lose models easily. At-rt is a pretty stable fire support unit that keeps shooting it's full amount despite having 5 wounds (unless unlucky vehicle dmg ofc). I disagree with at-rt being fragile and often one shot. 2 shot maybe, but despite playing alot of at-rt's I have never seen anyone roll the 7+ crits needed to destroy it in one go. In two attacks though, it can go boom.

The one shots that I’ve experienced with my Rebel RTs or I have seen with other people’s Rebel RTs has been from an AT-ST with Impact 4, Shore Troopers Fire Supported with a Mortar giving it Critical 2 or from the Imperial tank and the like. For either AT-RT only a combination of 6 hits or crits need to be rolled not 7+, and getting 6 crits with Critical and/or Impact against Armour is very easy to do, so it’s not just about good rolls, though it does mean that the roll has to be good enough to get enough hits or surges to convert. So it may not be common, but it happens enough for it not to be rare either.
As for Rebels vrs Fire Support, when I played Rebels, I complained many times that Rebels are not balanced even in their own faction. I got, “just get better” from others. The Rebel faction, more than any other, needs to go through a points revamp. As for GAR doing more one shoting than other factions, I think Shore Troopers do well enough with rolling a full boat of 8 hits/crits without the use of Fire Support which I have seen more often than not with the number of aims they can obtain. At least the Republic, an already activation starved faction, needs to use two activations to do it. The average number of hits generated by 1 a P1 or P2 (with Z-6) Fire Supporting another is 6.5. If you’re seeing more than that very often, check your opponent’s dice. Also we are talking about 2 units totalling 152-174 points taking out 1 unit worth 62 (Rebel Corps with Z-6) or even 100 points (Pathfinders with Bistan or with Pao only 90 points). The fact is, if there is any unit that can easily be one shotted (usually white defence dice units), then that should be taken into account in its point value meaning more units can be purchased. But again, that’s a points rebalancing issue, not necessarily an issue with Fire Support and doesn’t take away from the argument that the Republic RT is too expensive, it actually proves it. The Rebel AT-RT was itself reduced to 75 points and it’s one shotty’ness did play a factor in that total.

38 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

For clones the standard corps are space marine levels of strong with much harder defence, solid offence and the amazing clone trooper keyword. The only thing their at-rt got is a slightly better base weapon and surge-block. However they don't need a fire support unit the same way as rebel troopers. They can do it on their own and use token sharing to increase their power even further. Also surge-hit makes the rotary blaster less effective as you pointed out and it's the best weapon IMO since it works on most targets.

So I agree the clone at-rt isn't that great for clones, but it would be a solid unit for rebels. It would stay longer on the board and I rather take that than surge-crit. It can stay alive and cover my rebels. However Clones are probably better off getting a second clone unit. It's an internal balance problem more than external.

Like I said (quoting others), “ you must think of how that unit fits int o each army when determining point val ue s” and though that is mainly about points, it does seem as though this version of the RT wasn’t considered much as far as how it fits into the Republic army, other than how it would be affected by Fire Support. In real life small things could factor into what vehicle is used even though a vehicle may have the same roll, things like area taken up could be a factor for deciding what mechanical units were good for the army to use. The RT can fold into a smallish square so it would fit in the AT-TE tank, where something like the BARC couldn’t, but in a game each unit has to have a new role or at least have a new angle or the cheapest will be taken and the other not used at all. I think the Devs just missed this time around. It’s unfortunate, but it happens. I hope they can fix it. I actually like RTs, but we have to wait, wait for them to be out for a while, wait for tournament statistics, then wait for the changes to be made and hope it’s enough, but it’s going to be some time before there is any correction.

50 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I Laser and flamer are such a risk weapon since you never sure what you will face. Honestly you should get to equip whatever hard point you want when deploying to make them less risky IMO.

I couldn’t agree more, but I think the Flamer and Rotary hold their own risks and rewards as I mentioned, but the Laser Cannon is just not good enough for the cost never mind the risk of not facing armoured units. It should have been 4 or 5 dice total (not 3), even if they only just added 2 white (maybe 1 Red, 2 Black & 1 White with Impact 3). As is (1Red, 2Black, Impact 3), it’s just junk in any army and I think the majority of people would agree considering how many get included in tournaments. I understand why the devs gave it a low dice count. They didn’t want RTs to take down a heavy unit which cost so much more in points, but 4 dice would do just as well and not leave the unit totally useless if it doesn’t face armour.

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The one shots that I’ve experienced with my Rebel RTs or I have seen with other people’s Rebel RTs has been from an AT-ST with Impact 4

Why shouldnt a 200+ point AT-ST be able to one shot a 75 point Rebel AT-RT? working as intended.

Besides the AT-ST isnt capable of that on average anyway. It still requires a well above average roll. A Rebel AT-RT getting two shotted by an AT-ST is the far more likely scenario.

Also you cant base the survivability of GAR's AT-RT off the survivability of the Rebel AT-RT because GAR's AT-RT has defensive surge which makes it 25% tougher to kill. It is significantly less likely to get one shotted than the Rebel AT-RT.

Thats why you sound crazy telling everyone GAR's AT-RT will constantly get one shotted. Its statistically improbable. Even for an AT-ST. GAR's AT-RT is better than the Rebel AT-RT and even the Rebel AT-RT is considered good enough to be played competitively.

Again the problem with GAR is not their AT-RT. Their AT-RT is the envy of every other faction and every other faction would not hesitate to use it. The problem with GAR is their trooper units are broken and make everything else in their faction look bad by comparison. Making the AT-RT more appealing for GAR players is as simple as nerfing GAR's broken trooper units.

They might not get one shotted but they still suck

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

Stormtroopers one shotting AT-RTs with DLTs? huh? Your compaints about the AT-RT are completely unfounded. Especially when GAR is notorious for one shotting other factions units off the board with their own corps units.

it takes five turns for a full Stormtrooper unit with a DLT to kill an AT-RT on average. And if youre complaining about multiple Stormtrooper units with DLTs taking down an AT-RT, why shouldnt they? Its multiple units and each Stormtrooper unit costs nearly as much as an AT-RT.

Though your comments verge on rude, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s just your manor of speaking/writing.

You’re writing as someone who wasn’t around at the beginning of Legion. When Legion started, Stormtroopers were all there was and they were everywhere. The problem is that the Impact keyword is so easily available to a corps unit, coupled with the many units with Critical make the AT-RT’s longevity about one round.
A DLT Stormtrooper unit costs 68 points, 17 points less than the Republic AT-RT (or the initial Rebel AT-RT for that matter).
As for a Stormtrooper DLT taking 5 rounds to take down an RT, I guess you are saying that 1 unit of Stormtroopers will only get 1 hit through an AT-RT’s Armour per round. The fact is that the Stormtrooper DLT carries Impact 1, converting 1 hit to a crit. The 1 other red and 4 white dice can roll crits without needing further alteration, so 1 unit of Stormtroopers with DLT can take out an AT-RT in far fewer than 5 rounds. I do agree that multiple units taking their actions to take down one foe, is quite acceptable, but again that possibility should be calculated into said units overall cost. At 85 points the Republic RT is too pricy for its longevity.
As for Republic Fire Support one shoting a unit with Armour, I have never seen that. If you have video, please provide link, that would be wild to see and must have been one **** of a roll.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

AT-RTs are plenty survivable how they are. If anything AT-RTs shouldnt have better armor than AT-STs. They shouldnt get full armor when the driver is completely exposed. Yet somehow the enclosed backside of an AT-ST is a weakpoint? how does that make any sense?

I did mention this, but I guess you missed it. Sure, it would be nice for AT-RT to be more as depicted in the movies and animated show, but as you and I talked about before, that would make them a lot like Tauntauns. The current build may not make sense, but it’s what we have, removing full Armour from the current build would make it absolutely useless without a major rewrite.

43 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Why shouldnt a 200+ point AT-ST be able to one shot a 75 point Rebel AT-RT? working as intended.

Besides the AT-ST isnt capable of that on average anyway. It still requires a well above average roll. A Rebel AT-RT getting two shotted by an AT-ST is the far more likely scenario.

Also you cant base the survivability of GAR's AT-RT off the survivability of the Rebel AT-RT because GAR's AT-RT has defensive surge which makes it 25% tougher to kill. It is significantly less likely to get one shotted than the Rebel AT-RT.

Thats why you sound crazy telling everyone GAR's AT-RT will constantly get one shotted. Its statistically improbable. Even for an AT-ST. GAR's AT-RT is better than the Rebel AT-RT and even the Rebel AT-RT is considered good enough to be played competitively.

Again the problem with GAR is not their AT-RT. Their AT-RT is the envy of every other faction and every other faction would not hesitate to use it. The problem with GAR is their trooper units are broken and make everything else in their faction look bad by comparison. Making the AT-RT more appealing for GAR players is as simple as nerfing GAR's broken trooper units.

Ok, now it seems more obvious you are trying to be rude.

First, an AT-ST can get many aims as the Imperial faction does, which can turn a mediocre 9 dice roll into a good one and wouldn’t take much with 4 hits being changed to crits (Impact 4). That would mean you only need 4 hits and two crits on 9 dice and two can be blank. It’s not a bad roll, but not the well above average roll you mentioned.
Second, a single white defence die with surge has a 33.33333% chance of getting a block, double the 16.6666% of a white die without surge. I’m not sure where you got 25% or what that was supposed to be added to, but a 33.33333% chance of blocking a hit is far from a certainty.
Thirdly, perhaps you missed large sections of what I wrote, but my premise is that the Republic RT is not a good unit without Surge to Crit, especially at its current 85 points. It may be less likely for a Republic RT to be one shotted, though it’s not impossible and considering what’s out there now and only having a 33.333% chance to defend, the Republic RT’s chances aren’t that much better than the Rebel version. Also being at 1 or 2 health after 1 shot isn’t a lot better than being 1 shotted. I think you missed the complaint by joke01 (you posted just after him) he (or she) was complaining about rebels being one shotted so easily. Rebels troopers all have surge to defence on a white die, so it happens more than you think, even with the surge. Keep in mind that a white defensive die with surge is not 25% less than a red die without surge (was that where you got 25%?). It goes 16.6666% for white die without surge, 33.33333% for white with surge, 50% for a red die, and 66.66666% for red die with surge, and beyond that are things like Impervious, Uncanny Luck, etc, etc.

I don’t mind discussing these things with you, but your rudeness is an issue, and as I’ve mentioned to you before, there are other views than your own and I and those others are not crazy or professing unfounded complaints just because our views differ from yours. I appreciate your passion, but if you wish to continue to have a conversation about things, please try to refrain from these belittling or rude sentiments.

Even with aim tokens an AT-ST still cant one shot a Rebel AT-RT on average. And especially not a GAR AT-RT.

Its still statistically improbable. And basing your arguments on statistical improbabilities doesnt make for solid arguments.

Thats like saying Rex sucks because one time my Deathtroopers killed him on turn 1. Rex definitely does not suck, I just got lucky with my dice, and then he got unlucky making his saves. It was a statistically improbable fluke and I dont go around using that as evidence of Rex being a bad commander. Hes still one of the top 3 commanders in the game.

1 hour ago, Darth evil said:

They might not get one shotted but they still suck

If they suck so much how did a rebel list with AT-RTs get 2nd place at worlds?

It wasnt some fluke either because the list had to win multiple rounds to get to the finals.

The fact that was even possible means they obviously dont suck. Most people are just stupid with how they use them and suicide them into AT-STs then cry about how they suck.

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

GAR AT-RTs are better than Rebel AT-RTs in every way except cost. And getting scout 1, surge on defense, and a better base weapon for only 10 points is a BARGAIN. Not to mention it gets all the advantages of being a GAR unit baked in like being able to share tokens with it via exemplar or being able to fire support it. Rebels would love to have any of those advantages on their AT-RTs and would gladly pay extra points for them.

The GAR AT-RT is very good compared to the Rebel AT-RT. GAR players are just spoiled by how amazing their corps units are. They think nuking things off the board in one turn is the norm. So they expect all their units to be able to do the same thing. Which is exactly why their corps units need to be nerfed so they learn to appreciate their other units more.

Thats my deep dive. That GAR is a shallow faction because its corps units overshadow everything else.

Yeah thats not it at all. Because Rebels use AT-RTs competitively and Rebels would gladly pay the 10 extra points for all of the extra advantages GAR's AT-RT gets. The defensive surge alone would be worth 10 extra points for the 25% increase in expected survivability it gives. But for those 10 points you not only get the defensive surge but also scout-1 and a better base weapon.

Any other faction would love to have GAR's AT-RT and they would gladly pay 85 points for it. You are way off with your assessment.

In actuality the problem is GAR's trooper units and the fact theyre far too underpriced for them to ever consider taking more fairly costed units like the AT-RT. Your mistake was assuming clonetroopers and arctroopers were costed correctly and then comparing the AT-RT to them.

Silly me, I missed all this.

Dude, I get it, you hate GAR. It’s to a point where I’m certain you can’t be objective.

I really don’t think any Rebel player would pay 10 extra points to trade Surge to Crit for Surge to Defence. Beyond that you’re entitled to your opinion, but I think you can’t be objective where the Republic faction is concerned.

3 minutes ago, Khobai said:

An AT-ST with aim tokens still cant one shot an AT-RT on average.

Especially not a GAR AT-RT.

Its still statistically improbable. And basing your arguments on statistical improbabilities doesnt make for solid arguments.

Please, by all means, show me the math.

4 minutes ago, Khobai said:

If they suck so much how did a rebel list with AT-RTs get 2nd place at worlds?

They obviously dont suck.

The Rebel AT-RT has Surge to Crit. Again, it’s a major factor in why the Republic version sucks and the Rebel version is dangerous.

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The Rebel AT-RT has Surge to Crit. Again, it’s a major factor in why the Republic version sucks and the Rebel version is dangerous.

are you kidding me?

the GAR version can be fire supported.

that is way better than surge to crit.

because it adds surge to hit to the entire fire support attack pool. on top of all the other advantages of fire support.

here is the average results for both using the rotary blaster vs stormtroopers in heavy cover:

GAR AT-RT with surge to hit vs a stormtrooper unit in heavy cover = 0.67 hits

Rebel AT-RT with surge to crit vs a stormtrooper unit in heavy cover = 0.79 hits

OMG AN EXTRA .12 HITS OMG SURGE TO CRIT MAKES THE REBEL AT-RT SO MUCH MORE DANGEROUS!!!!1122 YOURE BLOWING A WHOLE EXTRA FOOT OFF A STORMTROOPER. what a joke.

You know whats actually dangerous? the GAR AT-RT getting fire supported with surge to hit. Because that can potentially erase an entire unit off the board before it even gets to activate.

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Please, by all means, show me the math.

AT-ST with surge to hit and an aim token doing 3 red, 3 black, 3 white damage with impact 4 vs AT-RT with armor and white save with surge = 3.5 hits on average

Like everyone has been telling you it doesnt get one-shotted on average. It gets two shotted.

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I really don’t think any Rebel player would pay 10 extra points to trade Surge to Crit for Surge to Defence. Beyond that you’re entitled to your opinion, but I think you can’t be objective where the Republic faction is concerned.

Then you dont know rebel players.

Because rebel players would gladly pay 10 points to trade surge to crit for surge to hit, defensive surge, scout 1, a better base weapon, the ability to be fire supported by corps units, and the ability to have tokens shared with it by commanders/operatives with exemplar.

Surge to crit is quite frankly not that much better than surge to hit when your dice pool is only 5 dice. its a fractional difference in the number of hits you get. And the Rebel AT-RT is certainly not deadlier than a fire supported GAR AT-RT thats getting fed tokens by Padme.

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Dude, I get it, you hate GAR. It’s to a point where I’m certain you can’t be objective.

I do hate GAR. But the entire reason I hate GAR is because I can objectively prove they are better than other factions and need to be nerfed. And they will be nerfed. Trust me on that.

You probably didn't miss their "point" initially. They throw something brazen out first then edit the comment later

except it tells you when the post was last edited

7 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

If you haven’t seen an RT get one shotted, then you’ve lived a very sheltered life, as it’s not an uncommon occurrence, and with the amount of Critical now out there, not to mention the ever ubiquitous DLT from Stormtroopers with Impact 1, the RT stands little chance with full Armour, never mind with partial or none.

Anecdotes are a thing, sure. People hit the powerball all the time, but I wouldn’t bet big money that I’m going to be the one to win it. Are talking about a saber tank with a twin laser turret hard point weapon that has the fire support of a Phase 1/2 squad with a Z-6 And extra clone trooper? If so, then that still doesn’t cut it. It throws 2R + 10B + 8W with Crit 2 and Impact 2. The average wounds is still only four assuming no aims (adding two aims adds and extra .5 wounds on average). This is all over the legion calculator program.

The ultimate point in trying to make is that while ridiculous things can happen with dice, and they definitely do from time to time, it is not the norm. Don’t act like the sky is falling because it has happened once or twice before. In the grand scheme of averages, these thing are not getting one shotted often.

In all my time of playing Legion, and I've played it from day 1, I have never even heard of an AT-RT getting one-shotted.

Something that starts with the atracker getting 6+ crits before cover is applied has such a low chance of happening that it really should not be used as an argument.

44 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Anecdotes are a thing, sure. People hit the powerball all the time, but I wouldn’t bet big money that I’m going to be the one to win it. Are talking about a saber tank with a twin laser turret hard point weapon that has the fire support of a Phase 1/2 squad with a Z-6 And extra clone trooper? If so, then that still doesn’t cut it. It throws 2R + 10B + 8W with Crit 2 and Impact 2. The average wounds is still only four assuming no aims (adding two aims adds and extra .5 wounds on average). This is all over the legion calculator program.

The ultimate point in trying to make is that while ridiculous things can happen with dice, and they definitely do from time to time, it is not the norm. Don’t act like the sky is falling because it has happened once or twice before. In the grand scheme of averages, these thing are not getting one shotted often.

I write a lengthy explanation and all you and they other one want to argue is the one shot issue I raised which taken in context was to counter the arguments of removing full armour from the original and new RTs. And though it may not be common and something that happens in every game that RTs are in, it can in no way be equated to winning the powerball.
That Legion calculator program sounds lovely, but with Critical 2 and Impact 2 and 20 dice how uncommon would 6 crits be? Keep in mind that Impact converts 2 hits and Critical converts 2 surges, but that is some how equatable to winning the powerball. As I mentioned I have seen an AT-ST on four separate occasions one shot an RT, three of witch were my Rebel RTs. With Impact 4 it only means 4 hits and 2 crits need to be rolled. The AT-ST will on average roll 4.5 hits, so 4 hits and 2 crits is so far beyond average that I should buy a lottery ticket. Is that what you’re saying. And did the number of hits generated also take into account the number of re-rolls from aim tokens available. The Imperial faction does tend to get those a little more than most, but it’s still beyond the realm of possibility, so I must be mistaken and I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Or is it that both of you are creating the Straw Man Fallacy to build this into something bigger than I even mentioned, just so you can say, I don’t know what I’m talking about the AT-RT and I should just shut up and go away. Lovely community, but at least you’re more polite than the other one.

Wow, this escalated quickly.

Well one shots aside, I still think the clone at-rt is a solid unit and if I could take it for rebels I would. Sure rotary surge crit is what makes the rebel at-rt work as an all around dmg dealer. However getting surge-block and a decent standard weapon and scout for 10 less points than my rotary at-rt would be a fair trade even with surge-hit. Now I'm not saying I would take it over the rebel variant, just that it would be a valid option depending on my list.

The at-rt should maybe not have full armor and be more agile than an at-st so either higher speed or even having the agile rule, however as this will probably not happen I still think it works fine.

I think for it to really work as it does for the rebels is to give the clone one the token sharing ability. Granted standby might be to powerful, but giving up the clone sharing stuff is a huge setback for a unit in the clone army, while rebels only want something that can take a hit and fire back.

I also think you misunderstood when I wrote fire support unit for rebels and clones. I don't mean fire support rule, but a literal unit that provide fire support by rolling alot of dice. Sorry about that 😅 .

While dlt stormies is/was the bane of rebel at-rt's, they took the range 4 hits to keep my 6 rebel trooper units safe long enough to score objectives and win. I have never seen mortar fire supported imperial heavies, they might do the trick and one shot my at-rt's. Sadly very few imperial players in my area field have vehicles since shore and deathtroopers got released 🙁 .

Having surge to crit instead of surge to hit doesnt make the rebel AT-RT significantly better at damage dealing than the GAR AT-RT. Thats another falsehood in the same vein as AT-RTs constantly getting one-shotted by AT-STs and DLT Stormtroopers.

All one has to do is spend two minutes on the legion dice simulator to see that both of those statements are completely exaggerated and false.

You want an objective comparison?

[Rebel AT-RT]
+Gets surge to crit instead of surge to hit. (honestly this shouldnt even get a + because the difference between surge to crit and surge to hit is absolutely minimal. Theres absolutely no difference against units not in cover. And its only 0.12 more hits against a stormtrooper unit in heavy cover. and you shouldnt be shooting AT-RT weapons at anything with armor anyway because thats fail)

[GAR AT-RT]
-Costs 10 points more
++Has defensive surge which gives it a 25% survivability increase
+Scout-1
+Gets a better base weapon
++Has the tremendous benefit of being fire supported and adding its surge to hit to the fire support attack pool
+Has the benefit of being able to pull off tokens at will from other models such as Padme

Its pretty obvious which one is better (and ill give you a hint its not the Rebel one). GAR complaining about their AT-RT not being good enough when its clearly better than the Rebel AT-RT is a joke.

Its not good enough for them that their units are already better than everyone elses. They want them to be invincible to AT-STs and Stormtroopers and one shot everything off the board too.

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

The at-rt should maybe not have full armor and be more agile than an at-st so either higher speed or even having the agile rule, however as this will probably not happen I still think it works fine.

The GAR AT-RT definitely shouldnt have full armor when it has a completely exposed driver. It should have Armor 2 and a red saving throw (because clone troopers get a red saving throw).

The Rebel AT-RT should get armor 2 and a white saving throw with surge (because rebel troopers get a white saving throw with surge)

Because the troopers are exposed they should get their normal defensive saves for units of that type. With Armor 2 being the bonus they get from riding the vehicle. That should also come with a cost adjustment of course.

That makes far more sense than GAR AT-RTs having better armor than AT-STs.

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As I mentioned I have seen an AT-ST on four separate occasions one shot an RT, three of witch were my Rebel RTs

Again... AT-STs do not kill AT-RTs in one hit on average.

Do you want the statistical probability of an AT-ST one-shotting a Rebel AT-RT? I can give that to you.

Assuming the AT-ST has 3R/3B/3W, impact 4, surge to hit and an aim token.

#hits % chance
6 12.844
7 3.5735
8 0.5683
9 0.0457

so the combined chance of an AT-ST doing 6-9 hits on an AT-RT is 16.9%

Thats only a 1 in 6 chance of being one shotted.

Do you want the statistical probability of an AT-ST one-shotting a GAR AT-RT? I can give that to you as well.

#hits % chance
6 4.8204
7 0.9519
8 0.1134
9 0.0058

the combined chance of an AT-ST doing 6-9 hits on a GAR AT-RT is 5.9%

that is a 1 in 17 chance of being one shotted

All it takes is 2 minutes on the legion dice simulator to figure all of this out.

@Khobai Do you ever give up? Seriously, all you do is: GAR Toys are better then everyone else, so they need to be broken. Give it a rest and try and figure out strategies to deal with the GAR and token sharing, just like people found ways to deal with the Double the Fall CIS List that wrecked shop for months when it first came out. Especially now with Vital Assets, there are plenty of Objectives, Conditions, and Deployments that really hurt GAR's style and if you build a list that excels at those objectives and make a list that should usually garner the Blue Player the majority of the time (And given GAR are usually pretty close to 800pts most list), then you should see better results. Also, the same Strike Teams you tend to rail against are great for poping units with Standby Tokens and removing them (trust me, I have seen that a lot in the pre-COVID tourney's in my area.) And dice simulators are nice, but they rarely reflect reality as dice are fickle little mistresses that sometimes go really hot and when least needed can go really cold. Sitting back and complaining constantly on the forums in hopes that FFG will nerf one army is not the solution. all Nerfing accomplishes is alienating the player base that plays that particular faction. Don't Believe me, look at the numerous iterations or Warhammer 40K and its struggles between 3rd Ed and 8th Ed. There are a lot of us old school 2nd Ed Guys who got out because GW kept nerfing our armies in favor of the latest and greatest shiny bobble. FFG is somewhat better then GW about this.

As to the one-shot (meaning one unit firing one time) scenario for ATRTs, I know it exist, but only for very specific units (Stormies with DLT-19 by itself not one) such as the new Tanks for GAR & CIS as well as ATST. Usually, what you see is concentrated fire to kill the ATRT (Similar to Bikes, Tuantuan and Dewback), which is sometimes the point. If you are focusing your fire on my ATRT, my other units are more free to take better positions or to return fire on your units in a manner as to be more costly to you then the lose of my ATRT. That and providing heavy fire support is really the role ATRTs fill in both armies. Put a flamer and a Comms Jammer on it, and run it towards the enemy. If they fail to focus on it and kill it, it disrupts their lines, if they focus on it, that buys time for other units to either capture objectives, get into better positions, or take out enemy units who are more focused on ATRT. It is how we use the unit that gives it value. While the through dissection of the unit was quite a good read, at the end of the day, it really depends on what role you need filled based on what your list is geared towards.

17 minutes ago, Bigbboyd said:

@Khobai Do you ever give up? Seriously, all you do is: GAR Toys are better then everyone else

They are better. I just proved it.

the GAR AT-RT is objectively better than the Rebel AT-RT

The extra advantages it gets for only 10 points are worth way more than 10 points.

So if the GAR AT-RT is objectively better than the Rebel AT-RT, and the Rebel AT-RT is considered good enough to be used in top tier Rebel lists at worlds, and GAR players are complaining that their AT-RT isnt good enough compared to their trooper units. What does that tell you?

That indicates to me that their trooper units are way too good. Which isnt exactly a new revelation, weve all known that for a while. But this helps confirm that.

Again its not the GAR AT-RT that needs a buff. Its GAR trooper units that need a nerf. If the rebel AT-RT was good enough for worlds than the GAR AT-RT is more than fine as is.

I feel like I'm missing half the argument here, and not just because I've got the resident troll blocked.

I don't ever recall seeing an AT-RT one shotted, but I remember seeing one go from full health to barely alive multiple times, so it's entirely possible. Jumping on that portion of the argument seems disingenuous, as the point of them being pretty fragile remains. Anything with Impact is almost certainly punching through shots, and anything that can get crits naturally (lucky rolls, or crit fishing with a mountain of aim tokens) is going to wreck one.

Personally, I don't care for the design of the Rebel RT, because it definitely should have had weak sides/rear, but also a better save. Oh well. Personally, I'd happily trade the Republic AT-RT for the Rebel one. Surge to crit was their main selling point, and the number one thing I hated about facing them as an Imp or Republic player. Gaining a slightly better save and scout aren't worth it. I had hoped that their weapons would be errata'ed to gain Critical X or something to make up for it, but nope. Rebel units just hit far harder for some reason. Must be all the illegal mods the terrorists are making to their weapons. On one hand, I like this change, because it means the Laser Cannon actually has a purpose now, but on the other, it really reduces their output considerably.

This is all conjecture. I haven't gotten my Republic AT-RTs on the table yet, so I'm not sure how they'll do. I've got a few lists made up for them, but I'm waiting until the local Legion league is over before I start experimenting with new crap. We'll see how it goes, but I'm not really holding my breath. Maybe once the generic commanders are out, they'll find more of a place (both because of point savings and cards, and to oppose CIS dual AAT lists).

The GAR atrt and rebel atrt are more or less the same, some stats are different but each can perform in the same role as the other. Gar is not lacking for firepower so perhaps the flamethrower would be the best choice to pursaude the opponent to shoot the atrt rather than your expensive core. Rebels enjoy this even more because they role white defensive dice. The rotary cannon makes the atrt a support piece,but in different ways for each faction, with Gar it provides a firesupport platform w/surge to hit and 5 black dice. With rebels it provides a weapon that can be used on anything with some hope of success. The lazer cannon is stiuwational at best, unless you frequently run into heavies it is not worth taking.

It used to be that we would come and discuss the game of Legion and the only thing we had to complain about was the boats that didn't bring our stuff.

There's a lot of negativity and personal jabs being thrown around.

There's some people on this forum who ought to look at who is posting and either Block them or Ignore their posts.

There's some other people who maybe shouldn't post at all until they count to 20 slowly in their brain, or maybe just shouldn't post unless they can "ADD" something to the discussion without biting heads off.

29 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

It used to be that we would come and discuss the game of Legion and the only thing we had to complain about was the boats that didn't bring our stuff.

There's a lot of negativity and personal jabs being thrown around.

There's some people on this forum who ought to look at who is posting and either Block them or Ignore their posts.

There's some other people who maybe shouldn't post at all until they count to 20 slowly in their brain, or maybe just shouldn't post unless they can "ADD" something to the discussion without biting heads off.

Agreed, some people take this game way to seriously and that is coming from someone who plays alot and runs a blog about said game xD.

8 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

I write a lengthy explanation and all you and they other one want to argue is the one shot issue I raised which taken in context was to counter the arguments of removing full armour from the original and new RTs. And though it may not be common and something that happens in every game that RTs are in, it can in no way be equated to winning the powerball.
That Legion calculator program sounds lovely, but with Critical 2 and Impact 2 and 20 dice how uncommon would 6 crits be? Keep in mind that Impact converts 2 hits and Critical converts 2 surges, but that is some how equatable to winning the powerball. As I mentioned I have seen an AT-ST on four separate occasions one shot an RT, three of witch were my Rebel RTs. With Impact 4 it only means 4 hits and 2 crits need to be rolled. The AT-ST will on average roll 4.5 hits, so 4 hits and 2 crits is so far beyond average that I should buy a lottery ticket. Is that what you’re saying. And did the number of hits generated also take into account the number of re-rolls from aim tokens available. The Imperial faction does tend to get those a little more than most, but it’s still beyond the realm of possibility, so I must be mistaken and I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Or is it that both of you are creating the Straw Man Fallacy to build this into something bigger than I even mentioned, just so you can say, I don’t know what I’m talking about the AT-RT and I should just shut up and go away. Lovely community, but at least you’re more polite than the other one.

I didn't read anyone else's response, so forgive me. I don't read the troll messaging as it is not conducive to a proper mental state. Apologies if it felt like I was piling on. I'm would never tell someone who is genuine (i.e. a non-troll) to shut up and go away, so please don't read that into my intent. I just feel like its not a fair assessment when people talk about AT-RT's being one-shot like its a common occurrence. The powerball comment was clearly hyperbole, but the intent was to point out that AT-RT's (especially one that surges defensively) are not that fragile. For instance, here is the break down of an AT-ST shooting with three aim tokens:

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# Hits Probability (%)
0 0.0181
1 0.3749
2 3.1175
3 12.7229
4 27.0539
5 29.227
6 18.3612
7 7.201
8 1.733
9 0.1905

There is roughly a 27.5% chance that the AT-ST will do 6 or better hits (assuming no cover) against the AT-RT, which is definitely not unreasonable.
Now using a dice calculator, I am seeing that the Rebel AT-RT has a 66.5% chance of getting at least one block, while the GAR AT-RT has a whopping 91.2% of rolling a block or surge.

So against a rebel AT-RT, we see a 9.2% chance of being one-shot while the GAR version is only getting one-shot 2.4% of the time. I'm actually surprised at how high that Rebel one-shot percentage is, but that is also with three aims. When the AT-ST only has two aims, the chance of scoring 6+ hits drops significantly to 7.4%:

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# Hits Probability (%)
0 0.507
1 4.3462
2 15.1823
3 27.7291
4 28.2759
5 16.5196
6 5.916
7 1.3276
8 0.1851
9 0.0112

This results in a 2.5% chance of the rebel AT-RT being one-shot while the GAR version is only getting one-shot 0.7% of the time.

Do you even know what a strawman argument is?

When you make an argument, and someone else proves your argument wrong, thats NOT a strawman argument.

That is a normal argument.

A strawman argument is when someone uses a completely unrelated argument to try and disprove your original argument. Which nobody did.

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So against a rebel AT-RT, we see a 9.2% chance of being one-shot while the GAR version is only getting one-shot 2.4% of the time. I'm actually surprised at how high that Rebel one-shot percentage is, but that is also with three aims. When the AT-ST only has two aims, the chance of scoring 6+ hits drops significantly to 7.4%:

No one with common sense is going to stick three aim tokens on an AT-ST just to shoot an AT-RT though.

Because stacking multiple aim tokens gives severely diminishing returns. Youre way better off spreading the aim tokens out among different units to maximize their effectiveness.

1 aim token is reasonable. 2 might happen sometimes. But 3 is starting to get silly. Youre getting into unicorn territory with mythical AT-STs with 3 aim tokens running around.

But I think the point has been thoroughly illustrated that AT-RTs do not get one shotted with any high level of incidence. Two shotted, sure, but not one shotted.

5 hours ago, HeavyLoader2 said:

The GAR atrt and rebel atrt are more or less the same, some stats are different but each can perform in the same role as the other. Gar is not lacking for firepower so perhaps the flamethrower would be the best choice to pursaude the opponent to shoot the atrt rather than your expensive core. Rebels enjoy this even more because they role white defensive dice. The rotary cannon makes the atrt a support piece,but in different ways for each faction, with Gar it provides a firesupport platform w/surge to hit and 5 black dice. With rebels it provides a weapon that can be used on anything with some hope of success. The lazer cannon is stiuwational at best, unless you frequently run into heavies it is not worth taking.

I dont think the Rebel AT-RT and GAR AT-RT will get played the same. Rebels tend to use AT-RTs more aggressively as distractions to advance their squisher units while GAR will hang back with their AT-RT and fire support it to erase units off the board.

the GAR AT-RT is very scary on offense because it adds surge to hit to fire support attack pools. That is huge.

An attack pool with 10 Black + 6 White and surge to hit thats pulling aim tokens off Padme shouldnt be underestimated. That has potential to instantly erase entire units off the board even if theyre in heavy cover.