3 hours ago, Khobai said:

force guidance

force guidance could give him 1 not two unless you got it on obi and anakin which takes up two precious force slots

16 hours ago, weebaer said:

Unvoiced opinion as a non GAR player: They Don't need a nerf.

I am a decent player, but I have had zero trouble getting around the standbys and GAR nonsense. You have to adjust your team and strategy. "oh no! why do I have to deviate from my mediocrity to ascend to something great?!" That's what game systems do. Play better, get better, change your team and capitalize on your opponent's weaknesses . There are like 4 big whiners against GAR on these forums, but they clearly haven't taken the time to come up with their own guides to combat the GAR. They have instead employed all their time and energy to try to make a change when one is not even needed.

Also......Vader can also be fantastic but people have become lazy in trying to make it work. This game is littered with lazy players that insist on only playing the "meta" instead of creating their own. It is tiring.

My local game group consists of top players that have won multiple tournaments and played at top table at several prime championships, so if I don't have a difficult time beating GAR with CIS, REBs and Imps then I have no idea why anyone else should. Just put the time and thought into it. Who knows? you might even have fun while doing it and realize there wasn't much to whine about in the first place.

BTW: Excellent guide. These are the conclusions many of us have come up with once we realized our teams might need an adjustment.

This is great. lol


"GAR doesn't need fixed, just build your armies to specifically counter them! Duh! Get good scrub and maybe they won't be so tough."

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

1. Chip Shots: a chip shot is an attack from a unit that has very few dice to attack with (usually 2), and so can’t do much damage. This is why it’s called a chip, because you’re only chipping a little off the unit you’re attacking. Sniper Strike Teams are the best at this and can even remove Standbys from units (If a unit gains a Suppression token, it loses the Standby). Don’t forget to keep moving your snipers though, so you can get that angle on the hidden units with the Standbys on them. Also if you fire at the clone corps troops, the clones don’t have a very high mini count, so losing even 1 mini per attack not only reduces the attacked unit’s dice to attack, but weakens the clone army as a whole.

This was a good tactic but it has become increasingly dangerous against clones now that ARCs are in the wild, especially if you're matching or lower than the enemy team in activations. ARCs having impervious means there's a real chance they can block any pierce you can actually get through cover (especially if they're token sharing surges) and if your snipers lack high velocity, I can pretty much guarantee there's a dodge somewhere to nullify it before it even reaches. More than that, they can do the same thing right back, except better, because ARCs have tactical and can share farmed tokens, and, if carefully done, a nearby unit may also be able to firesupport on that shot, outright Ctrl+Alt+Del>Task Manager>End Task a unit. (And because of the scout shenanigans they have the ability to do this very early).

I get the message here, but really unless all they're doing is standby farming, or you have 2-3 activations up on them, this is hard gambit to get to work and can end up just thinning your activations.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

2. Range 4+ Weapons: much like in #1 above, range 4 (or 5) weapons can do the same thing. Every faction has a range 4 weapon and you should think about including at least two in you list. They only roll 2 dice generally (Shore Troopers roll 4 and Rebel Troopers 3), but if one hit goes through cover, that’s one less attack die that will be rolled against your troops and being at range 4, no Standby can be used against you. Be very careful of Rex’s 2 pip. It is a very dangerous card and can do a very powerful alpha strike out to range 4, and after their attack the clones can move behind line of sight (LoS) blocking terrain. So try to anticipate that card being played and know when to have your units further back or out of sight.

So this one favors Imps and Rebs, having more of the said R4 weapons than CIS, but even in their cases it can be a null point.

Clones can now stuff up to 4 range 5 (trooper) weapons in a list (All with critical and lethal) and with REX's 2 pip, extend select range 3 weapons to 4. They are not as limited by range as people think and considering the keywords on the clones, I'd venture to say it's often much more effective. Also, with the scout mechanics on clones, they can very easily close that range 3-4 gap, meaning to effectively do this tactic you have to deploy back and then you're heavily neglecting center deployed objectives.

Range 4+ was great before ARCs hit the wild, now they're laughing pretty hard at it. This strategy, again, is really only useful if all they're doing is standby farm.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

3. You must be patient: Get you back objectives done, but if there is a center objective, you shouldn’t start moving on that till round 4 at least, so you can spend 3 rounds of doing chip shots and range 4 or 5 shots to reduce the Republic troops. If you spend 3 rounds just doing chip shots, you will find that the Republic units will be reduced to one or two minis per unit for the big show down in rounds 4-6 and if you have stayed out of range, your troops should be largely untouched (except sniper fire, but see #9).

While I largely agree with the concept of patience, and advocate for it while playing, the highlighted area can be outright wrong in many situations. It's depends greatly on what that objective is, what the conditions are, and how they enemy is playing. I have never, in 100+ games ( even with my dope new terrain that has great new LoS blockers), seen a match that allows you to entirely circumvent LoS and just "chip away" at the enemy without suffer similar losses. Even less so with an army that can scout the majority of it's forces into range 3-5 turn 0 (depending on deployment).

I think this is bad advice. Be patient, yes, but play your objective smart. There are some objectives you cannot let them bulk their army up on the center point for 4 rounds before you choose to engage in full.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

4. Critical: though I’m talking about the keyword, rolling a critical is good too. Crits get past cover, doges, even Obi Wan’s Soresu, so using that with the above tactics in #1 and #2 and the clone player will slowly start to lose minis and this will make his army manageable when you both have to make a play for an objective at rounds 4-5. If a single hit gets through to a clone, there is a 50% chance that the mini will be removed (33.333333% if they have surges), so they should be losing a few minis each round.

Agreed. Though I will say this is one of the most frustrating parts of this game. Defense dice suck, but that's another discussion lol God rolls are a thing, and if you're running something with white defense dice, even a few good rolls in their favor can snowball into an extreme disadvantage.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

5. Standby Rules: just to make sure that you are playing the rules correctly, keep in mind that the Rules Reference Guide (RRG) was updated months ago limiting the amount of Standbys a single unit can spend per instance. So if your unit moves into the standby range of 2 clone units, both of those clone units can only spend 1 Standby each, even if there are more than 2 Standby tokens available to them. Generally speaking most Republic players only have 1-3 Standby tokens per round. If they have more than that, they are planning to play a VERY defensive game, so use that to your advantage with the above tactics.

Agreed.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

6. Terrain Scoping: this one is a good tactic to use on any army. Terrain Scoping is done by using the terrain to limit either the attacker’s or defender’s views, so that only specific minis can see and thereby participate in an attack exchange. In this case you will use LoS (Line of Sight) blocking terrain so that the clone unit you are attacking is the only unit that can see your attacking unit. This way if there are Standbys to spend, only that one clone unit can spend it. Even better is if you can use the terrain so that half of the clone unit you want to attack can see your unit. That way, if the clone unit does spend a Standby token, they can only roll 3 black against you instead of the usual 4 black, 6 white. Again this tactic reduces their numbers by chip damage and it also reduces the amount of dice they can use against you. Defending against a 3 black die attack is fairly easy especially if you have cover. N ote that this tactic can also be used to take out the heavy mini in the unit you want to attack. This is usually because the targeted player didn’t put their heavy mini more in the center of the unit and has its heavy hanging out at the tail end of the unit.

I would say this is mostly valid, but again, with the inclusion of ARCs, may be a useless gesture. The Leader and Heavy Weapons Team keywords prevent taking those units up without wiping a whole unit (worse yet, because of how the Leader keyword currently works you may end up giving that unit free HP by doing so). Just be careful when doing it. Know your target.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

7. Other Units: The AAT is incredibly good against clones. Not only does it have the Critical keyword, but it also has High Velocity, so that even normal hits that make it past cover can’t be negated by dodges (that includes Soresu too). There is also the Stap Riders, Speeder Bikes, Landspeeder (though a bit overpriced) or even the T-47, which can flank the clones, but if you do use them, be patient with them. Don’t just run them up to enemy lines, try to move them around and behind and also don’t forget to use Terrain Scoping for them so there’s not as much retaliatory attacks from Standbys and inactivated units. Stap Riders and Speeder Bikes can get heavy cover if you place one of the two minis behind LoS blocking terrain, giving them heavy cover, which can be useful if they get fired at when trying to get in position for a flank attack. Speaking of which Tauntauns can also play with cover and are very effective, but just like the Bikes and Staps, you have to be patient and not just charge in. Though it is true, being in melee will protect you from most of the Republic forces, but don’t forget they do have red defense dice and with P2s and the Aggressive Tactics upgrade, they will have a lot of surges to use against one or two alpha strikes from your Tauns, and they will be using black dice to attack back if you attack doesn’t do much damage to the unit. It’s best to use the terrain as in #6 to scope your opponent’s units and to use the terrain to give you heavy cover while using your ranged attack. The AT-ST is also quite effective against clones. Though they do have weapons with Impact, the Republic players almost never bring them. The AT-ST also has a commanding view and throws a lot of dice, so if you attack their corps units, they won’t have much to punch back with. There are many units that are good vs Republic, but some are older units not used much anymore because they didn’t do well when there were only two factions. Having 4 factions brings new dynamics, so what was once old and considered useless, may still be useful yet.

Yup, just be aware your armor can easily be chipped away by ARCs, who, witch tactical, sharpshooter, critical, lethal, and a heap of aims to share, can even disable AATs early game. (also, on the rare occasion there's a saber, watch out for that thing. It's a tank killer lol).

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

8. Suppression: It’s no secret that the Republic doesn’t do well with suppression , so including units that give extra suppression is always helpful. To date there are only 3 things that the Republic can do to get rid of extra suppression. 1. They can include the Endurance upgrade. This is easily avoidable by firing on other units without Endurance on them, but it shouldn’t be an issue anyway as most competitive Republic lists don’t include that upgrade. 2. The Force upgrade Hope can give Inspire 1. Since Force slots are so precious, Hope is almost never included in lieu of Force Push or Reflexes. 3. Padme’s 1 pip command card can remove any number of Suppression from troops, but it’s transferred to her, so it’s unlikely that more that 6 will ever be transferred to her. Also it is a one time deal, so Suppression can still be very effective. Most lists currently only include Rex as the commander and the P2s and ARC’s all have 2 courage, so 2 hits from units with the Suppressive keyword will put them at their limit, a third hit has them running for the hills.

Suppressive is almost never bad, so I don't disagree with that, but I would be remiss if I didn't disagree HEAVILY with this concept. Clones are not "Weak" to suppression. I don't know what fosters that, if it's meta group-think, or a by-the-math calculations of costs to loss, but it's wrong. Clones are likely (with the obvious exception of CIS) the least susceptible to suppression. In addition to yours listed (Padme, endurance, hope) this is how clone manage to shake off suppression

1.) Fire support. The ability to circumvent PANIC and/or a wasted/suboptimal activation by adding the unit's dice to an attack pool with better keywords, and possibly more tokens, is by far one of the biggest strengths of clones. (let's also recognize this can be used to circumvent poison.)

2.) Token sharing. I don't know how this gets missed so often when thinking about suppression. A unit with only 1 action is a battery for units who have both, or, the other way around, allowing clones to effectively ignore the effects of losing actions.

3.) recover actions. Guess what, nothing stings more then laying a bunch of suppression on a unit only to have it laugh it off with a recover while the rest of their team does the above mentioned tactics. (though not exclusive, it shouldn't be ignored)

4.) Clone Captain. They can outright ignore being suppressed for a round allowing them to get their full economy when they need it most. (though not exclusive, it shouldn't be ignored)

5.) high courage average. So ARCs and Phase 2s both start at 2, and Fives lets a unit gain 1, usually this means that 7-8/10-11 units are courage 2 or more. (I think only imps have enough affordable access to suppressive to even stand a chance chunking all that down).

6.) Strict orders. I know it's not really direct suppression mitigation, but, it can be enough to help. Consistency in games where dice can bone you hard is a valuable thing, and I've seen clones with C2 benefit from it.

I understand the math showing that clones suffer the most from being suppressed, but they are also the most equipped to fight it outside of CIS. I have never seen a clone army slowed, even in the slightest, by putting suppression them. They outright kill units with fire support while ignoring the negative effects of suppression, they share tokens to min-max effective units, and in worse case scenarios, they use sub optimal activations to battery power better options. They handle it better than most.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

9. ARC Strike Teams are not as good as you think: by that I mean they don’t have High Velocity, so with the 2 point Situational Awareness upgrade and a dodge, the ARC sniper attack can be negated entirely. So if Republic snipers are doing a lot of work on your units, dodge up.

This is very true.

On 9/19/2020 at 11:43 PM, JediPartisan said:

Full disclosure, I’m a Republic player, but I started playing Empire, then switched to Rebels and eventually to Republic. I have heard a lot of people complaining that the Republic is too powerful and that brings me back to playing Rebels against Empire and how one sided it seemed (especially pre-Tauntaun). That being said, I thought I would help by giving the tactics that have been used against my Republic lists by higher level players so that no one has a negative play experience. Personally I don’t believe that the Republic is OP, but they do need to be played against differently than any other faction and not everyone is aware of what tactics need to be used. I will start with the few I can remember and have shared on these boards before, but if anyone can think of more, please feel free to share and I will try to keep this top post up to date.

I appreciate the effort in what you did here, and hopefully it does help some players. I don't think the units themselves are OP, so to speak, having started working on how FFG calculates costs, I think they have them dialed in about right. I think the unmitigated ability to share tokens creates a noticeably more effective army for opponents to overcome even at basic skill levels, which, in turn, creates an imbalance in gameplay. They don't need nerfed so much as adjusted.

When I play a tabletop game the biggest turn off is having to fight the mechanics harder than you have to fight your opponent.

Gar player here. To beat Gar first consider that they have low model count. This means that if you trade,as long as you are not playing a similarly elite army, you have a net gain of combat effectiveness. In order to attack, units must advance. Play with precision in your range bands to maximize shots that you take for which the gar player cannot respond to without moving. Fire support also locks units in place, so pay attention to where the gar player places their face up orders, do not move units into range of the sucker punch or consider shooting then moving out of range. This will not make fire support impossible, but will make the gar player work for it. Strike teams have 2-4hp depending upon circumstances so they are ideal targets for trimming Gar activations back accept the sniper battle if in equal numbers, as gar needs the extra activations badly. If successful in gaining a activation advantage, first last with a powerful unit. Do not feel gamey or cheap for doing so, just as standby sharing is a tactic, so is first lasting. Use armor as a breakthrough tool as unlike other units in the game it will likely take multiple rounds for gar to kill it. Aim to make the Gar player role as many defensive dice on one unit as possible to deplete the stock of surge/dodge tokens, and minimize the number of shots that the gar player gets to gain advantage.

9 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

This is great. lol


"GAR doesn't need fixed, just build your armies to specifically counter them! Duh! Get good scrub and maybe they won't be so tough."

Yeah...That is exactly how to get good at a game and stay good. What happens when Taun Tauns are running rampant in the tournament scene? You change your team to counter them....What happens when the shore/mortar gunlines start to take over? You change your team to counter them. How is this a new concept or something to scoff at? You want to perform well at this game? Then make a well rounded team that plays well against current meta teams.

People are simply getting mad that their favorite team they like to play isnt as good as it used to be when played vs GAR. Well, get used to it. The game has gone through these types of changes before, any game with new additions will have this trend continue. Instead of whining about it on online forums, practice stuff you think might be better against it. It is not a hard concept and Im not being rude and saying "get good scrub". Im saying that if a mediocre player can figure it out, then others can and will too.

9 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

This is great. lol


"GAR doesn't need fixed, just build your armies to specifically counter them! Duh! Get good scrub and maybe they won't be so tough."

This was a good tactic but it has become increasingly dangerous against clones now that ARCs are in the wild, especially if you're matching or lower than the enemy team in activations. ARCs having impervious means there's a real chance they can block any pierce you can actually get through cover (especially if they're token sharing surges) and if your snipers lack high velocity, I can pretty much guarantee there's a dodge somewhere to nullify it before it even reaches. More than that, they can do the same thing right back, except better, because ARCs have tactical and can share farmed tokens, and, if carefully done, a nearby unit may also be able to firesupport on that shot, outright Ctrl+Alt+Del>Task Manager>End Task a unit. (And because of the scout shenanigans they have the ability to do this very early).

I get the message here, but really unless all they're doing is standby farming, or you have 2-3 activations up on them, this is hard gambit to get to work and can end up just thinning your activations.

So this one favors Imps and Rebs, having more of the said R4 weapons than CIS, but even in their cases it can be a null point.

Clones can now stuff up to 4 range 5 (trooper) weapons in a list (All with critical and lethal) and with REX's 2 pip, extend select range 3 weapons to 4. They are not as limited by range as people think and considering the keywords on the clones, I'd venture to say it's often much more effective. Also, with the scout mechanics on clones, they can very easily close that range 3-4 gap, meaning to effectively do this tactic you have to deploy back and then you're heavily neglecting center deployed objectives.

Range 4+ was great before ARCs hit the wild, now they're laughing pretty hard at it. This strategy, again, is really only useful if all they're doing is standby farm.

While I largely agree with the concept of patience, and advocate for it while playing, the highlighted area can be outright wrong in many situations. It's depends greatly on what that objective is, what the conditions are, and how they enemy is playing. I have never, in 100+ games ( even with my dope new terrain that has great new LoS blockers), seen a match that allows you to entirely circumvent LoS and just "chip away" at the enemy without suffer similar losses. Even less so with an army that can scout the majority of it's forces into range 3-5 turn 0 (depending on deployment).

I think this is bad advice. Be patient, yes, but play your objective smart. There are some objectives you cannot let them bulk their army up on the center point for 4 rounds before you choose to engage in full.

Agreed. Though I will say this is one of the most frustrating parts of this game. Defense dice suck, but that's another discussion lol God rolls are a thing, and if you're running something with white defense dice, even a few good rolls in their favor can snowball into an extreme disadvantage.

Agreed.

I would say this is mostly valid, but again, with the inclusion of ARCs, may be a useless gesture. The Leader and Heavy Weapons Team keywords prevent taking those units up without wiping a whole unit (worse yet, because of how the Leader keyword currently works you may end up giving that unit free HP by doing so). Just be careful when doing it. Know your target.

Yup, just be aware your armor can easily be chipped away by ARCs, who, witch tactical, sharpshooter, critical, lethal, and a heap of aims to share, can even disable AATs early game. (also, on the rare occasion there's a saber, watch out for that thing. It's a tank killer lol). Suppressive is almost never bad, so I don't disagree with that, but I would be remiss if I didn't disagree HEAVILY with this concept. Clones are not "Weak" to suppression. I don't know what fosters that, if it's meta group-think, or a by-the-math calculations of costs to loss, but it's wrong. Clones are likely (with the obvious exception of CIS) the least susceptible to suppression. In addition to yours listed (Padme, endurance, hope) this is how clone manage to shake off suppression
1.) Fire support. The ability to circumvent PANIC and/or a wasted/suboptimal activation by adding the unit's dice to an attack pool with better keywords, and possibly more tokens, is by far one of the biggest strengths of clones. (let's also recognize this can be used to circumvent poison.)
2.) Token sharing. I don't know how this gets missed so often when thinking about suppression. A unit with only 1 action is a battery for units who have both, or, the other way around, allowing clones to effectively ignore the effects of losing actions.
3.) recover actions. Guess what, nothing stings more then laying a bunch of suppression on a unit only to have it laugh it off with a recover while the rest of their team does the above mentioned tactics. (though not exclusive, it shouldn't be ignored)
4.) Clone Captain. They can outright ignore being suppressed for a round allowing them to get their full economy when they need it most. (though not exclusive, it shouldn't be ignored)
5.) high courage average. So ARCs and Phase 2s both start at 2, and Fives lets a unit gain 1, usually this means that 7-8/10-11 units are courage 2 or more. (I think only imps have enough affordable access to suppressive to even stand a chance chunking all that down).
6.) Strict orders. I know it's not really direct suppression mitigation, but, it can be enough to help. Consistency in games where dice can bone you hard is a valuable thing, and I've seen clones with C2 benefit from it.
I understand the math showing that clones suffer the most from being suppressed, but they are also the most equipped to fight it outside of CIS. I have never seen a clone army slowed, even in the slightest, by putting suppression them. They outright kill units with fire support while ignoring the negative effects of suppression, they share tokens to min-max effective units, and in worse case scenarios, they use sub optimal activations to battery power better options. They handle it better than most.
This is very true.
I appreciate the effort in what you did here, and hopefully it does help some players. I don't think the units themselves are OP, so to speak, having started working on how FFG calculates costs, I think they have them dialed in about right. I think the unmitigated ability to share tokens creates a noticeably more effective army for opponents to overcome even at basic skill levels, which, in turn, creates an imbalance in gameplay. They don't need nerfed so much as adjusted.
When I play a tabletop game the biggest turn off is having to fight the mechanics harder than you have to fight your opponent.

As I mentioned in my post, they were tactics that worked on me and my clone list and I suppose I should have mentioned that each tactic can and should be adapted for your specific situation. I do appreciate your comments though. I hope it further fills out what people need to know in order to mount a good defense against this (possibly incorrectly) perceived insurmountable threat.

I also don’t think the Republic is OP, but like I said, I think people just aren’t sure what to do tactically and with covid, they don’t get to see what the higher level players do to get themselves around the “new hotness”. As for the mechanics of the new factions, I think the biggest problem is that the two older factions don’t have well defined mechanics that are just for them. The Imperials were the tough, more expensive faction with an excessive amount of suppression, but now they only are the suppressive faction, since the clones are tough and more expensive. The Rebels were the “cheap” faction, but now have a sever lack of identity, though that could also be an identity as they are a hodgepodge of a lot of different things. That’s great thematically, but not so great in game terms. But the more new things come out, the more all that can be further fleshed out.

I am, at best , a mediocre player. But 90% of my games have been against clones and I win probably 2/3rds of them. I genuinely had no idea they were considered overpowered until I started checking these forums.

I don't keep tabs on the meta, or on tournament results so I don't really have a gauge of their relative power. I just have an army across the table that I have to figure out how to beat.

I'm not great at the game, but I'm pretty good at pattern recognition and evaluation in general. I took my licks the first few games, and I tried to figure out how to move the hot pan without burning my hand.

Reading the OP was genuinely encouraging because a lot of the tactics therein were things I stumbled upon.

"Git gud" is not a sufficient response in and of itself, but it is a good mentality for improvement. There are absolutely useful and specific things in this thread to employ.

3 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I am, at best , a mediocre player. But 90% of my games have been against clones and I win probably 2/3rds of them. I genuinely had no idea they were considered overpowered until I started checking these forums.

I don't keep tabs on the meta, or on tournament results so I don't really have a gauge of their relative power. I just have an army across the table that I have to figure out how to beat.

I'm not great at the game, but I'm pretty good at pattern recognition and evaluation in general. I took my licks the first few games, and I tried to figure out how to move the hot pan without burning my hand.

Reading the OP was genuinely encouraging because a lot of the tactics therein were things I stumbled upon.

"Git gud" is not a sufficient response in and of itself, but it is a good mentality for improvement. There are absolutely useful and specific things in this thread to employ.

I main as clones, and most of my games have been pretty tight. Didn't realize clones were super OP til I read these forums as well.

Long range, tanks, and melee heroes tend to do pretty well against the clone death ball.

Grievous and Sabines 1 pips do really well against them because they do area damage.

...

I also didn't realize people though destroyer droids were bad. Those things have been ******* awesome in most games I've played, both with and against them. Keeping them behind heavy cover makes them really tough to shift.

5 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

I also didn't realize people though destroyer droids were bad. Those things have been ******* awesome in most games I've played, both with and against them. Keeping them behind heavy cover makes them really tough to shift.

I agree, Ive never really been disappointed in them as a CIS player. I treat them like a gun emplacement that is really good at getting into position on round one. Park them behind a barricade overlooking an objective and they will be very tough to crack.

Or use their speed three wheel mode positioning to block other ground vehicles from moving on a critical turn.

11 hours ago, bllaw said:

force guidance could give him 1 not two unless you got it on obi and anakin which takes up two precious force slots

force guidance gives 2 surge tokens. since clones have token sharing it doesnt really matter who gets the tokens they can all share them with eachother.

1 hour ago, weebaer said:

People are simply getting mad that their favorite team they like to play isnt as good as it used to be when played vs GAR. Well, get used to it. The game has gone through these types of changes before, any game with new additions will have this trend continue. Instead of whining about it on online forums, practice stuff you think might be better against it. It is not a hard concept and Im not being rude and saying "get good scrub". Im saying that if a mediocre player can figure it out, then others can and will too.

No people are getting mad because their favorite team that they like to play is inferior to GAR in almost every way and GAR does almost everything they do better.

GAR is literally just becoming a better version of the Imperial faction. Almost every new unit GAR gets is a better version of an existing Imperial unit. Im sure Anakin when he comes out will be way better than Vader too

If youre winning 2/3rds of your games against GAR then its likely because the GAR players youre playing against arnt playing GAR correctly. Because the top players in the world certainly arnt beating GAR 2/3rds of the time. And I doubt its because you uncovered some secret that they werent able to find.

18 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

I also didn't realize people though destroyer droids were bad. Those things have been ******* awesome in most games I've played, both with and against them. Keeping them behind heavy cover makes them really tough to shift.

I love me some droidekas! As I've gotten a better grasp of the game, I get why people are down on them.

I've had success using them to absorb Standby bunkers (this was my first solution before I figured out range 4 "wound chipping" and "last/firsting"). Turn 1, roll behind LoS blocking terrain. Turn 2, walk around the corner in such a way as to maintain heavy cover. Clones can choose to use their Standby (plus other tokens) to pour efficient fire into them but knowing that unless they hit 9 times at least (or possibly roll a whole bunch of crits), it won't make a dent in the return fire.

It saps the efficiency of elite units, and that's never a bad thing.

11 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I agree, Ive never really been disappointed in them as a CIS player. I treat them like a gun emplacement that is really good at getting into position on round one. Park them behind a barricade overlooking an objective and they will be very tough to crack.

Or use their speed three wheel mode positioning to block other ground vehicles from moving on a critical turn.

My favorite use for them is mobile emplacements as well. Snipers don't do well against them, and heavy cover combined with Generator often makes my enemy look for an easier target to hit. The opponent is expecting them to walk around and shoot, which is why they are sometimes surprised when I instead save them for last and double move them up to stop their payload objective from moving that round. They're like speeders who have a stationary death mode.

They do like to have aims though, as I've blanked more than one shot I was really hoping to get some suppression out of. And they tend to be difficult to fit into a skirmish game, and sometimes awkward to fit with anything other than a bunch of B1s. I still love taking them, and can still find a use for them despite the STAP being cheaper (and "support"ier).

Ditto on the Droidekas, albeit off topic. Only real complaint I've seen against them is cost, which I do agree with. Functionally their fine.

30 minutes ago, Khobai said:

arc troopers changed everything

Arc troopers really aren't OP. They are a solid elite choice with a lot of utility. The designers got them right and they work well in the faction.

They're expensive and can die easily if focused down.

...

I agree that imperials have some lackluster units. But they have a lot of solid range 4 guns.

I think as a faction they just need some better assault options. Like vader/imp guard/dewbacks need a buff/points drop.

48 minutes ago, Khobai said:

If youre winning 2/3rds of your games against GAR then its likely because the GAR players youre playing against arnt playing GAR correctly. Because the top players in the world certainly arnt beating GAR 2/3rds of the time. And I doubt its because you uncovered some secret that they werent able to find.

Your limitless condescension is extremely well documented at this point.

Do you honestly believe that I began my post with "I am, at best , a mediocre player" in an effort to set up "but I have uncovered the secret nobody else has!", despite that never being stated or even vaguely implied?

This entire forum gets it. You resent GAR. They're immune to tactics, and the only solution is to turn every single thread that mentions them into your personal campaign to ***** and ***** and ***** until FFG reforms the game into your vision of what it should be.

I've been playing tabletop games for 20 years, and I've met a lot of people exactly like you. They reach an obstacle and find every opportunity to try to convince everyone the obstacle is insurmountable, and eventually move on to the next game to stagnate at. And when they do, the community benefits, because incessant negativity helps absolutely nobody. You're not going to get better because you already decided it's impossible.

Maybe the game is broken, I wouldn't know and frankly don't care. I haven't been playing the best players in the world and I won't be. I've been playing against the players I can play against and adapting to what beats me.

That doesn't make me great, but it does make me willing to learn.

It also allows me to have fun. You should try it some time.

7 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Arc troopers really aren't OP. They are a solid elite choice with a lot of utility. The designers got them right and they work well in the faction.

They're expensive and can die easily if focused down.

...

I agree that imperials have some lackluster units. But they have a lot of solid range 4 guns.

I think as a faction they just need some better assault options. Like vader/imp guard/dewbacks need a buff/points drop.

arc troopers arnt op? lmao.

arc troopers are going to end up being the fastest unit to get nerfed in the history of the game.

Quote

This entire forum gets it. You resent GAR. They're immune to tactics, and the only solution is to turn every single thread that mentions them into your personal campaign to ***** and ***** and ***** until FFG reforms the game into your vision of what it should be.

I never said GAR was unbeatable. Its more the fact theyre unfun to play against.

CIS are also way stronger than Imperials but im not complaining about them? Why? Because CIS is fun to play against. GAR is not. GAR's oppressive game mechanics make you want to rage quit every single turn.

I dont really care if FFG reforms the game into my vision of how it should be or not. I can always avoid using bad units but I cant avoid playing GAR. They need to fix GAR so theyre not as miserable to play against.

Quote

incessant negativity helps absolutely nobody

incessant optimism helps absolutely nobody either. i used to be optimistic about them fixing older units like Vader and the airspeeder for 2 years. they never did.

and that is why Im pessimistic about the game now because FFG doesnt ever fix anything unless its so completely broken it cant be ignored. Which is the point clones are at now.

besides negativity and pessimism work notably better at getting results than optimism does. thats just how it is.

so ill keep complaining about GAR until they get nerfed. And once they get nerfed ill stop complaining about them.

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

I never said GAR was unbeatable. Its more the fact theyre unfun to play against.

Your fundamental lack of understanding of what a fact is continues to baffle us all.

You are, in fact , demanding FFG changes the game to your vision of it.

It is your opinion (i.e. in absolutely no way a fact) that GAR is unfun to play against.

The fact that you ignored the entirety of my perspective and focused solely on my win/loss ratio tells me that you are more concerned about their power than how much fun they are or aren't. If you actually cared more about the fun people have playing them than their power, then a sensible response would be something like "you may win 2/3rds of your games against them, but do you enjoy those games?"

Instead, you're baffled because the only explanation for a win/loss ratio that is clearly out of your reach can only be explained by opponents' incompetence.

I have fun playing against them, and it's not because I'm a relentless optimist--it's because I'm a problem solver. If I find a challenge, I don’t demand someone come over and solve it for me. Sometimes a challenge can get me down--particularly if I fail the challenge over and over. But even then, I know the problem is with me. I am either not approaching the challenge with the right mindset, not learning the lessons it teaches me, or (in some cases) I just don't have what it takes to overcome it. That's not optimism, it's realism.

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

besides negativity and pessimism work notably better at getting results than optimism does. thats just how it is.

Do they? That has not been my experience in really any aspect of life. It doesn't work in personal relationships, or professional settings, and it certainly doesn't make you an opponent anyone wants to deal with.

But if you insist that whining is the only possible way to get someone to solve your problems for you, can you please just email FFG everyday instead of trying to ruin everybody else's experience on these forums?

Certainly your negativity and pessimism would be more productive if you directed it at the source of your failures rather than people who have absolutely no power to change it, right?

All you do is make this site as unfun for us as it is for you to play GAR.

You very, very, very occasionally have something constructive to say and I'm surprised when I see it, but generally it's just "woe is me" nonsense. All you're going to accomplish is getting a lot of people to put you on 'ignore' since you have almost nothing to contribute to most conversations.

Then you can just scream into the void all you want and nobody, including FFG, will do anything about it.

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

arc troopers arnt op? lmao.

arc troopers are going to end up being the fastest unit to get nerfed in the history of the game.

i used to be optimistic about them fixing older units like Vader and the airspeeder for 2 years. they never did.

I don't consider a slight points increase a 'nerf'.

Honestly, what they really need to do is just raise opposing special forces up, rather than tearing a good, effective unit, down.

Arc snipers are good. So what? GAR need the extra activations to not fall behind. Activation differences in an alternate activation game have compounding effectiveness - so equaling out the field some how is a good thing.

There is no design rule that a 'horde' army like CIS needs to be high activation to represent that horde. What they need is lots of models and therefore wounds. A 100pts clone unit should be less but more effective dudes. A 100pts droid unit should be a lot of less effective dudes. You still represent the horde/elite design aesthetics without giving a core game mechanic preference to one side.

...

I complained incessantly about the costs of the AT-ST and T-47, then eventually they got a point reduction. I think they are pretty workable now, in specific lists, and situations.

So don't give up, your ******* will get results.

Even though I don't think it's warranted in this instance. (But many do believe clone standby sharing is pretty **** to play against.)

@ Khobai I really don't understand your constant hatred towards Clones(GAR), nor do I see you offering any constructive options on how they can be improved other then to NERF them. I play both Imperials and Clones as my armies and trade back and forth depending on the mood I am in. I have found my failures and success in both. A lot of times, I find its more the attitude of the players (including myself) and their skill level that greatly dictates the fun and outcomes of a game. Do Clones have some particular synergies that work well, yes, but at what cost. I can always squeeze more activations out of my Empire List (at least pre ARC Strike Teams) with a higher model count. I have better options for commanders with Empire with more flexibility in play style and tactics. Clones are very dependent on token sharing, which limits their movement and play style, which in certain scenarios can be a serious determent.

Look, I always tell people it is easy to find and identify problems, it is hard to find work a rounds and solutions that are actually beneficial to all concerned. A NERF for Clones doesn't really benefit the game as a whole and only serves to hurt and disenfranchise people who play Clones (believe me I have seen it in Warhammer 40K and Fantasy too many times). This ultimately hurts the overall community. Plenty of people on this forum have tried to point this out, and I am sure more will do the same. Please, try and look more closely at what is being said objectively and find some middle ground on this.

12 hours ago, weebaer said:

Im not being rude

You are, without any doubt, being rude.

Condescending to players who have posted valid complaints to a FFG hosted forum by calling them "whiners" definitely qualifies as being rude. Let's not try to pretend like your "advice" was anything more than a loosely masked insult that specifically targeted those of us here who have posted our concerns about GAR.

Yes, believe it or not, we understand that metas shift, and that when they shift, units that were once good need to be replaced in order to manage current threats. No duh. That's not advice. Everyone already knows that. Here's what I'm going to tell you. Even well balanced lists (and those built specifically with clones in mind) lose to the clones. That's why people are getting mad.

Also, since you're advocating as an expert, what exactly is the clone hard counter? AOE? I've seen them trample lists with area weapons, come out unscathed. Range 4+? I've watched clones break a gunlines round 2 because they were in range and throwing more powerful shots round one. Suppression? They laugh it off, use token sharing and fire support as a crutch to make units that have suboptimal action econ effective. Flankers? I've seen clones stop speeders and tuan tuans in a single shot. Lightsaber melee units? If you're lucky they won't kill it before it gets close, but they'll still kill it. Armor? One round of focused fire from an armies worth of ARCS can brick a tank.

Tell you what, if you have the answers, then why not post these master-crafted lists which allegedly topple clones? It fits the thread theme. Get back to the subject of how to counter clones instead of just being condescending to those of us here who have complaints.

14 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

As I mentioned in my post, they were tactics that worked on me and my clone list and I suppose I should have mentioned that each tactic can and should be adapted for your specific situation. I do appreciate your comments though. I hope it further fills out what people need to know in order to mount a good defense against this (possibly incorrectly) perceived insurmountable threat.

I also don’t think the Republic is OP, but like I said, I think people just aren’t sure what to do tactically and with covid, they don’t get to see what the higher level players do to get themselves around the “new hotness”. As for the mechanics of the new factions, I think the biggest problem is that the two older factions don’t have well defined mechanics that are just for them. The Imperials were the tough, more expensive faction with an excessive amount of suppression, but now they only are the suppressive faction, since the clones are tough and more expensive. The Rebels were the “cheap” faction, but now have a sever lack of identity, though that could also be an identity as they are a hodgepodge of a lot of different things. That’s great thematically, but not so great in game terms. But the more new things come out, the more all that can be further fleshed out.

Agreed. (mostly lol). This was a solid thread idea in the current state of the forums.

I'm not sure what direction they'll end up going. I'm curious to see myself. Although I fear at the moment the perceived and possibly valid strength of the clone faction may end up isolating members of local play. I know for a fact most players locally will outright refuse match ups with our resident GAR layer. Granted, he's quite good with clones, he's at 23-2 w/l record with them in face to face matches. It's tough because he's a good dude, as an organizer I'd like to see him get more time to play, but most players don't feel like getting their teeth kicked in.

11 hours ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Ditto on the Droidekas, albeit off topic. Only real complaint I've seen against them is cost, which I do agree with. Functionally their fine.

I agree 100%. They should cost around 85 points and they would be just about right.

22 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

This is great. lol


"GAR doesn't need fixed, just build your armies to specifically counter them! Duh! Get good scrub and maybe they won't be so tough."

It was probably not your intention, and this comment is not really directed at you. Your comment/reaction just serves as the springboard for my rant, so please don't think I'm specifically targeting you.

I want to state that many of the threads/posts complaining about GAR come off as the same. Basically "nerf clones, GAR players just need to get good so they don't need X mechanic." That's just as condescending and insulting as a Clone player laughing at your frustration. I know one of the podcasters has blatantly described clones as "playing on easy mode" but such labels do nothing for convincing players of the need for change, or for those of us loyal to a faction before it was even released, let alone became the dominate faction.

Bottom line: pointing out a problem is fine, but don't attack clone players by calling the faction easy mode/auto win in one sentence, then get mad when somebody says "get good" elsewhere. Both sides can stand to improve, but both sides need to recognize the validity of the other.

End Rant.

Guys, seriously?

Does every thread have to devolve into a salt mine about the GAR?

The faction has been out for less than a year, COVID has dilated everything in the process in terms of more units coming out and more balancing being done, and GAR having a slight balancing issue is not the end of the world.

Thanks @JediPartisan for the breakdown, I think you really hit the nail on the head for how GAR can bust if you apply the right pressure!

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Yes, believe it or not, we understand that metas shift, and that when they shift, units that were once good need to be replaced in order to manage current threats. No duh. That's not advice. Everyone already knows that.

Well Im surprised to see you say this since this was your response to my original post.... "GAR doesn't need fixed, just build your armies to specifically counter them! Duh! Get good scrub and maybe they won't be so tough."

1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Also, since you're advocating as an expert, what exactly is the clone hard counter? AOE? I've seen them trample lists area weapons, come out unscathed. Range 4+? I've watched clones break a gunlines round 2 because they were in range and throwing more powerful shots round one. Suppression? They laugh it off, use token sharing and fire support as a crutch to make units that have suboptimal action econ effective. Flankers? I've seen clones stop speeders and tuan tuans in a single shot. Lightsaber melee units? If you're lucky they won't kill it before it gets close, but they'll still kill it. Armor? One round of focused fire from an armies worth of ARCS can brick a tank.

I've seen people give good suggestions on here but clearly, you have it figured out. The clones are unstoppable. Those of us that have found good counters are just lying. It's all hopeless. I would give you army lists that I have had excellent success vs clones, but based on your previous comments and this quote above you will just tell me that Im playing teams that won't work vs "good" clone players, despite the fact the players I play against are top rated players, some of which had invites to worlds. So clearly my suggestions won't help you, but for others that are curious I'll post a few CIS, Empire and Reb lists that have been very effective.

Empire:

Darth Vader (Force Choke, Force Reflexes, Force Push)
Shoretroopers (Del Meeko, FX-9 Medical Droid, Recon Intel)
DF-90 Mortar Trooper
Snowtroopers (Gideon Hask, Recon Intel)
Snowtroopers (Flametrooper, Recon Intel, Fragmentation Grenades)
Stormtroopers (FX-9 Medical Droid, Recon Intel)
Stormtroopers (FX-9 Medical Droid, Recon Intel)
Scout Troopers (Strike Team) (DLT-19x Sniper)
Scout Troopers (Strike Team) (DLT-19x Sniper)
Scout Troopers (Strike Team) (DLT-19x Sniper)

Iden Versio (Offensive Push, Idens TL-50 Repeater, Idens ID10 Seeker Droid)
Iden Versio(Loadout)
Stormtroopers
Stormtroopers
Stormtroopers
Imperial Special Forces (Inferno Squad) (Del Meeko, Gideon Hask, Offensive Push)
Imperial Special Forces (T-21 Special Forces Trooper)
Imperial Special Forces (T-21 Special Forces Trooper)
74-Z Speeder Bikes
74-Z Speeder Bikes
74-Z Speeder Bikes

CIS:

General Grievous (Aggressive Tactics, DT-57 Annihilator)
B1 Battle Droids (Radiation Cannon B1 Trooper)
B1 Battle Droids
B1 Battle Droids
B1 Battle Droids
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Dioxis Mine Saboteur, Tenacity, Vibroswords)
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Dioxis Mine Saboteur, Tenacity, Vibroswords)
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Strike Team) (BX-Series Droid Sniper, HQ Uplink)
STAP Riders
STAP Riders

General Grievous (Aggressive Tactics, Tenacity, DT-57 Annihilator)
B1 Battle Droids (Radiation Cannon B1 Trooper)
B1 Battle Droids
B1 Battle Droids
B2 Super Battle Droids (B2-HA Trooper, B2 Super Battle Droid, HQ Uplink)
B1 Battle Droids
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Strike Team) (BX-Series Droid Sniper)
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Strike Team) (BX-Series Droid Sniper)
BX-Series Droid Commandos (Strike Team) (BX-Series Droid Sniper)
AAT Trade Federation Battle Tank (OOM-Series Droid Pilot)

Rebs:

(this one has had the biggest difference in VPs vs clone teams than any others)

Han Solo (Duck and Cover)
Cassian Andor (A280-CFE Sniper Config)
Cassian Andor(Loadout)
Chewbacca (Tenacity, Hunter)
K-2SO (Jyns SE-14 Blaster)
Fleet Troopers (Scatter Gun Trooper)
Rebel Veterans (CM-O93 Trooper)
Mark II Medium Blaster Trooper
Fleet Troopers (Scatter Gun Trooper)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (DH-447 Sniper)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (DH-447 Sniper)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (DH-447 Sniper)

Rebel Officer (Strict Orders)
Sabine Wren (Endurance, Recon Intel)
Luke Skywalker (Operative) (Force Push, Force Reflexes, Saber Throw, Situational Awareness)
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Rebel Troopers
Mandalorian Resistance (Clan Wren) (Tristan Wren, Ursa Wren, Endurance, Recon Intel)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (DH-447 Sniper)
Rebel Commandos (Strike Team) (DH-447 Sniper)

21 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

It was probably not your intention, and this comment is not really directed at you. Your comment/reaction just serves as the springboard for my rant, so please don't think I'm specifically targeting you.

I want to state that many of the threads/posts complaining about GAR come off as the same. Basically "nerf clones, GAR players just need to get good so they don't need X mechanic." That's just as condescending and insulting as a Clone player laughing at your frustration. I know one of the podcasters has blatantly described clones as "playing on easy mode" but such labels do nothing for convincing players of the need for change, or for those of us loyal to a faction before it was even released, let alone became the dominate faction.

Bottom line: pointing out a problem is fine, but don't attack clone players by calling the faction easy mode/auto win in one sentence, then get mad when somebody says "get good" elsewhere. Both sides can stand to improve, but both sides need to recognize the validity of the other.

End Rant.

100% agree. No worries mate.

As a community we shouldn't be at each other throats about this. The forums are a great source for players frustrated with their games to share and learn. I think it's important for everyone trying to be constructive not to take a hard stance on anything, especially without having the exact calculus the game designers used to determine costs vs effectiveness. Have an opinion, yes, but don't be a jerk.

Yes, I have the opinion that clones are causing some game imbalance and may need adjusted. I try to back this up when I can with the observations I've experienced or seen myself. I never discount a player's capability, (in earnest our clone player may be the best of us in the local scene). I'm also open to the idea that the imbalance is a perceived effect of new units in combination with a lack of played games due to covid.