1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Have you seen them as a problem where you are?

I know they're good ships and I find their absence a bit odd. Squad balance maybe?

Is it simply that cheap force bucks the Hyperspace ideal? I do appreciate that view..

So first of all there is essentially 0 hyperspace data available across all factions. Do not draw conclusions from hyper tournament data including Mustafar, it is very much useless at this stage. My opinions on ships/lists in Hyper are based entirely on my own experience of matchups across the field and available pieces within factions. 5th and 7th at 43 and 42 are far more capable of protecting and trading for their points than just about any equivalently priced ship in Hyper Empire. I mentioned Brutes only because this is the Craig thread. But anything else near their costs is usually a foregone conclusion to be swapped out for them. Without upgrades they operate as highly durable "filler aces" at i4 with linked focus mobility + 2 force and consistent offensive threat. They are durable threats early/mid game and capable end game ships that protect their points very well. It largely boils down to the force charges. Nothing can mechanically approximate its power, especially 2 charges.

They are essentially an auto-include and warp the entirety of Empire's hyperspace options accordingly. Almost any Hyperspace Empire list you might build can be improved by swapping pieces out until 5th and 7th are back in the list. One or two potential exceptions to this but they likely would require more effort to play well. In general Hyperspace does a really good job of limiting access to cheap force users (excluding Republic and Maul Crew). Empire list building in particular is dramatically more interesting and less "restrictive" when it has very little access to aces. All the faction needs at any given time is either Vader or Soontir, 1 fragile i5 ace like Duchess or Maarek, and 1 i4 ace like 5th or 7th. Including both is overkill. There is an argument to be made that both should be left outside the gates on list building impact alone.

For me the format is not improved by their inclusion. End of the day they are still i4 2 attack single reposition 4 hp small bases so not a huge deal and there are other problems to address (looks at Boba). They just stick out like a sore thumb in Empire Hyper as being out of place. It would be fine if only one of them was hyper legal and list building would feel like it has substantially more options available.

TLDR: Less is more in Hyper. 5th and 7th are from the more is more school of X-Wing.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I super appreciate the sentiment. I thought 7th Sis was a bargain when I used to fly her at 46pt, my opponents often thought so too.

But, and given massively limited data, I had a peruse of list fortress, for not much more data.... adding that to my own experience, I'm just not seeing them perform in Hyper. Admittedly, this is largely because hardly anyone seems to bring them. I have not seen them first hand at all.

They featured in 2 lists at Mustafar. With 1 win between them.

I love a v1, if lockdown wasn't about to happen again here, there's a possibility I'd have taken them sooner or later and formed my own opinion. I've just been flying Scum and Reps instead, for my own reasons. Have you seen them as a problem where you are?

I know they're good ships and I find their absence a bit odd. Squad balance maybe?

Is it simply that cheap force bucks the Hyperspace ideal? I do appreciate that view..

I can say from my point of view I used both 5th and 7th a fair amount. I found they could hold their own against ships that cost 50% more than them, and were completely superior to ships of the same cost. I'm actually shocked they weren't used more often against the Nantex scourge, as they were almost invulnerable to the turrets and pretty effective moving first or last. I think they're Extended good, not Hyperspace good.

If I was able to play on one of the online tournaments, I would have taken both of them.

This is all based on experience, not data, so make of that what you will.

Fair. I agree with you both on all counts, I've just been surprised and bemused at their absence everywhere I've been able to look. I was simply curious if you'd seen different.

36 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So first of all there is essentially 0 hyperspace data available across all factions. Do not draw conclusions from hyper tournament data including Mustafar

Well, I really just intended to ask the question, rather than draw a conclusion, if I did that.

We've had a short run of small Hyper tourneys here and are part of a pretty competitive, busy network. Imps have been largely abandoned in HS, 5th and 7th may as well not be legal atm.

New toys for Reps, Seps and FO are a massive part of that, since people are cramming in their X Wing fun while they can. There is that distortion, but people still pick and play to win.

So 0 data, I do disagree with, we're just not great at recording it over here

Not that I place much value in data. Hence the interest in your personal transatlantic experiences, which I honestly value more than numbers and results. I'm curious whether they're still decent in the HS meta without some fairly obvious tools. I would have thought yes, but perhaps there's some doubt.

In any case, I'm very interested in Brute Force atm. Rampage fits nicely with a seriously economical Vader, 5th and 7th. Because obvious go-to's ofc. My model should arrive in time for our last in-person games this week.

Without 5th and 7th, I think I'd be looking at Dree and a bunch of TIEs, with a Ruthless Sabacc on the wing.....

7 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

very interested in Brute Force atm

Same team. So far I have settled on these two lists:

• Vader FCS + Duchess + Lyttan Sync + Tie + Tie
• Duchess + Lyttan Sync Aimbot + Tie + Tie + Tie + Tie + Tie

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Same team. So far I have settled on these two lists:

• Vader FCS + Duchess + Lyttan Sync + Tie + Tie
• Duchess + Lyttan Sync Aimbot + Tie + Tie + Tie + Tie + Tie

Duchess is probably the sensible choice over Ruthless Sabacc

But also, Vader, Lyttan Sync and 4 TIEs seems a nice option.

Lyttan and 4 Sabers for me!

Although honestly a heavy + 7 Academies or 6 Ruthless Black Squadron Aces is pretty interesting to me. I like the idea of the chunky toddler TIE fighter as a counterpoint to the regular ties. It's strong against different things, but is cheap enough that it doesn't water down the squad or lose that sweet "No Shields, All Guts" vibe. Also not having the Reaper's weird movement patterns is a bonus.

Meh.... not sure. Here’s my first stab. Don’t really like the I4 guy 🤷‍♂️ Don’t know why.

Et Tu, Brute?

(54) Soontir Fel [TIE/in Interceptor]
Points: 54

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
Points: 52

(43) Seventh Sister [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Sense
Points: 48

(37) Lyttan Dree [TIE/rb Heavy]
(6) Synced Laser Cannons
(3) Target-Assist MGK-300
Points: 46

Total points: 200

25 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

Meh.... not sure. Here’s my first stab. Don’t really like the I4 guy 🤷‍♂️ Don’t know why.

Et Tu, Brute?

(54) Soontir Fel [TIE/in Interceptor]
Points: 54

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
Points: 52

(43) Seventh Sister [TIE Advanced v1]
(5) Sense
Points: 48

(37) Lyttan Dree [TIE/rb Heavy]
(6) Synced Laser Cannons
(3) Target-Assist MGK-300
Points: 46

Total points: 200

You might not like this one then.

All Fours...

(39) Rampage [TIE/rb Heavy]
(6) Synced Laser Cannons
(3) Target-Assist MGK-300
Points: 48

(43) Seventh Sister [TIE Advanced v1]
Points: 43

(42) Fifth Brother (TIE Advanced v1]
Points: 42

(36) Saber Squadron Ace [TIE/ln Interceptor]
Points: 36

(30) Gideon Hask [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 30

Total Points: 199

I'm trying out a Rampage/Rex/Fel list at the moment, on Fly Casual at least as it looks unlikely I'll get any more in person game time before the UK locks down again.

Rampage - Synced Cannons, Hull Upgrade, Intimidation, Target Assist

Rex and Fel both with Outmaneuver.

Might swap out Fel for a couple of TIEs at some point, but it's fun at least. If you get it all going right, enemy isn't getting a lot of greens.

I got some non-theoretical play with Lyttan.

1.) I never tried very hard to get the ability to activate. I planned my approach to be in a location that had a better chance of being in some flanks, but it was mostly just corners clipping the side arc anyway, which happened a lot.

2.) In an Imperial squad full of 3agi low hp ships, it was nice to have a 9 hp chunk to fill up the most vulnerable position that I knew would soak some damage and still live.

3.) Synched is good for the 3 dice, but I rarely used the calc ability (I used the maneuver bot). Different cannon combinations really seem worthwhile to explore.

4.) White barrel roll into a calculate from the maneuver bot is pretty cool.

41 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I got some non-theoretical play with Lyttan.

1.) I never tried very hard to get the ability to activate. I planned my approach to be in a location that had a better chance of being in some flanks, but it was mostly just corners clipping the side arc anyway, which happened a lot.

2.) In an Imperial squad full of 3agi low hp ships, it was nice to have a 9 hp chunk to fill up the most vulnerable position that I knew would soak some damage and still live.

3.) Synched is good for the 3 dice, but I rarely used the calc ability (I used the maneuver bot). Different cannon combinations really seem worthwhile to explore.

4.) White barrel roll into a calculate from the maneuver bot is pretty cool.

Nice lines up with what I experienced. Lyttan is definitely one of those ships where you dont really need to chase the pilot ability much. Approach on a "flank" or have some other stuff that they cant ignore so your opponent creates the flank for you. Either way once your in the mix if Lyttan doesn't die that medium base just clips side arcs. I do think setting up on weird angles could be useful with Lyttan. Having things in your list that draw attention away from Lyttan I think helps to so it doesnt get burned down o quick.

As for the Sync Calc its another one of those things you don't actively try to trigger. If it happens great if not id still pay 6 pts for 3 dice front/rear that said "attack". I have not tried Ion/Tractor yet so no real opinion there, though I see the potential in a swarm etc. Sticking with Sync for now though since its part of Craigs "chonk identity".

And yea the white barrel roll is cool for being able to adjust angles of approach leading into the 1-3 bank maneuvers or turns. Helps big time navigating with the medium base. There are actually 1 or 2 lists where there is just 2 pts left over and no need to bid. Still scratching my head as to how Aimbot is only 1 pt more expensive though given the mods while blocked thing.

I'm certainly having trouble prying my thoughts away from SLC, with or without Aimbot. 3 dice is just one of those definite things.

With 5/6 ships in the list, it'd be easier to let go of. With Lyttan and things for eg.

I need a bunch more actual games with Aimbot. 3pt is daft, but if the thing shows a tendency to get one good use of it before exploding, it'd be a simple drop. Much depends on your oppo.

With more games, I would like to experiment with just Movebot on Rampage. Hedge the approach and make haste for R1. SLC and Aim may not be sorely missed, if he just drops strain, reinforces, then Talon Rolls to keep in the mix. Difficulty with the rotate and the lack of a straight turnaround were the things that really encouraged me to just keep moving forward, past and looking for a go away, come back. All of which played into SyncAim but somewhat detracted from the strain.

7pt spare to chuck FCS on my 3 Force users for eg., could go a long way though.

Hmm, optimized Lyttan and the sloan swarm? Rerolls for days.

Lyttan Dree (37)
Synced Laser Cannons (6)
Target-Assist MGK-300 (3)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4

Colonel Jendon (49)
Admiral Sloane (9)
Director Krennic (4)
ST-321 (4)

Ship total: 66 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 5

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

2 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Hmm, optimized Lyttan and the sloan swarm? Rerolls for days.

Lyttan Dree (37)
Synced Laser Cannons (6)
Target-Assist MGK-300 (3)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4

Colonel Jendon (49)
Admiral Sloane (9)
Director Krennic (4)
ST-321 (4)

Ship total: 66 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 5

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2

Academy Pilot (22)
Ship total: 22 Half Points: 11 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

jendon?you don't use his ability in this list, save the points , take omicron and upgrade the squad...

4 minutes ago, Manolox said:

jendon?you don't use his ability in this list, save the points , take omicron and upgrade the squad...

Free locks are free locks, though I guess it would free up points to make a TIE into a baron, or if you drop Krennic, into an interceptor.

6 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I'm certainly having trouble prying my thoughts away from SLC, with or without Aimbot. 3 dice is just one of those definite things.

With 5/6 ships in the list, it'd be easier to let go of. With Lyttan and things for eg.

The thing that makes me want to look at Ion, maybe, is that with 4-5 other ships, you can probably trade a little damage for some control. 3 ship lists would have a harder time, of course.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

The thing that makes me want to look at Ion, maybe, is that with 4-5 other ships, you can probably trade a little damage for some control. 3 ship lists would have a harder time, of course.

Yeah. Exactly what puts me off Tractor Rampage. If I'm taking more ships and can afford the drop off, Lyttan seems the man.

With his strain disappearing after a max of 2 shots, Rampage seems better suited to lower ship counts, where you're likely to need his hits to hurt and his Init is more suitable.

Obviously, you can choose not to shoot with the tractor, but I prefer to not to hedge my bets with these things.

So then I look at Autoblaster and wonder why I bother with a cannon at all, at that point.

There's the HLC trick. But 1pt more for SLC.... 5pt for a probably very rare 4 die shot.....

Hrrrrrmmmm.

With HLC and Movebot in my Brute Force, I can then fit FCS on Vader. Might be worth a test. See if I can hit that bullseye up. There is roll into calc after all.

Huuummmm.

Ah balls. No HLC in HS. Fuuuuu-

I could see HLC, but maybe alongside another cannon if you had the points. Might be pretty meta dependent. There's definitely some lists where a bullseye can be expected 2-3 times per game. Lyttan can get it double modded vs a lot of stuff, too, while repositioning.