2 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Clone trooper and droid trooper do not affect their whole factions!!!

The leaders/ops/vehicles do not get the abilities.

ffs...

they affect all droidtroopers and clonetroopers respectively. and both those factions armies are made up of... wait for it... mostly droid troopers and clone troopers . so im not really seeing your point. If the majority of a faction is comprised of units that benefit from an ability, and the other factions barely benefit, or dont benefit at all, from the same ability, I would consider it a faction ability.

youre trying to argue that its not a faction ability on the basis that CIS is only 80% droid troopers and not 100% droid troopers? solely because of Grievous? or the AAT? Its still affecting the majority of CIS' army and it still doesnt affect the majority of any other army.

Also just because rebels might or might not be using R2D2 and K2SO doesnt make it a faction ability for rebels. The rebel army still isnt predominantly droids so its not a faction ability for them. Because its not affecting the majority of their units and another faction (CIS) benefits more heavily from it.

if an ability affects the vast majority of one faction, and doesnt affect other factions to nearly the same extent, I consider it a faction ability of that faction. Because that faction is uniquely designed around making heavy use of that ability and everything in the faction is designed with that ability in mind. They designed GAR around being comprised mostly of clone trooper units so of course you can consider token sharing to be a faction ability of theirs. But if they add a new unit to Imperials that can share tokens it doesnt suddenly make token sharing a faction ability for Imperials because the majority of Imperial units still cant share tokens.

youre trying to argue semantics. that just because it doesnt affect the entire faction its not a faction ability. it doesnt need to affect the entire faction to be a faction ability. just because BARC speeders cant share tokens doesnt mean token sharing isnt a GAR faction ability. Token sharing is a faction ability for GAR because they can token share way better than any other faction and their units are designed specifically around using that game mechanic.

9 hours ago, Lochlan said:

The issue there is that Droid Troopers aren't unique to CIS, so can that really be considered a faction ability for them? Especially since they do actually have many units with something that nobody else has: AI. Except that AI is printed on the cards, which, per your definition, doesn't qualify as a faction ability (never mind that it's more like the opposite of an ability).

The AI keyword on the CIS cards I would hardly call an ability as if you don’t have a face up order token you are seriously restricted to what you can do with an activation. Most of the time you have to shoot first meaning taking an aim or surge for your second action is mostly pointless. Another downside to this supposed CIS advantage is your army in reasonably bunched together meaning you can’t always take the fight to where needed effectively. Also meaning you can be out flanked more easily.

The AI keyword is the downside to droids having coordinate. there had to be a downside. and the downside is if you dont coordinate you get stuck with AI.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

The AI keyword is the downside to droids having coordinate. there had to be a downside. and the downside is if you dont coordinate you get stuck with AI.

I agree but in that case it hardly makes it an advantage or benefit. Retrospectively adding things to whole factions all because people cry they got something I didn't will mean then all of a sudden everything else will need re balancing and then you are back to square one.

8 hours ago, XR8rGREAT said:

The AI keyword on the CIS cards I would hardly call an ability as if you don’t have a face up order token you are seriously restricted to what you can do with an activation. Most of the time you have to shoot first meaning taking an aim or surge for your second action is mostly pointless. Another downside to this supposed CIS advantage is your army in reasonably bunched together meaning you can’t always take the fight to where needed effectively. Also meaning you can be out flanked more easily.

I never said AI was an advantage. In fact, I said "that it's more like the opposite of an ability." However, AI clearly comes with a pretty big reduction in points cost.

6 hours ago, Khobai said:

The AI keyword is the downside to droids having coordinate. there had to be a downside. and the downside is if you dont coordinate you get stuck with AI.

I actually think it's the other way around. CIS units have AI (all droid troopers and vehicles so far have it), but they have access to tools to ignore it (coordinate is the obvious one, but they also have upgrade cards that specifically disable it). It's a bit of a pedantic difference, but it's possible to build a CIS list with no coordinate, whereas you can't build a CIS list with no AI.

yep and something similar shouldve been done with token sharing. There shouldve been a downside to it. And then a way to pay extra to remove that downside.

CIS is a superbly designed faction. I wish I could say the same about GAR.

I do wonder if we will just have to wait for 1.5 for the older factions to get anything really unqies. Seen it mentioned somewhere before that the first two factions were based off of mirroring each other and I am not sure they can give real fix that in patches?

I still think the easiest would be to make Rebels take a crap ton of hero's. Jyn/cass/k2, leia/Han/chiewie, and luke/Sabine/clan wren. Maybe a big buff to pao/bistan as well? It's not as good as their own keyword, but it's an attempt?

Empire I think is easier and mentioned a lot already. Make range 4 guns better and give a few more surpressive. Really push empire as the gunline faction.

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

yep and something similar shouldve been done with token sharing. There shouldve been a downside to it. And then a way to pay extra to remove that downside

Holy crap how did I miss that??? GAR does not really have a downside to token sharing! I wonder if that would be the best way to nurf them? Just give a suppression or other negative token if they share so many times?

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

CIS is a superbly designed faction.

And boy howdy does CIS feel like the best made faction. A clear identity, a mechanic that you have to build around, and a clear weakness. Dooku's command card that puts tokens in the bag pretty reqirues u to empty out that bag........... I'm am a CIS fanboy and proud of it!

4 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

I do wonder if we will just have to wait for 1.5 for the older factions to get anything really unqies. Seen it mentioned somewhere before that the first two factions were based off of mirroring each other and I am not sure they can give real fix that in patches?

I still think the easiest would be to make Rebels take a crap ton of hero's. Jyn/cass/k2, leia/Han/chiewie, and luke/Sabine/clan wren. Maybe a big buff to pao/bistan as well? It's not as good as their own keyword, but it's an attempt?

Empire I think is easier and mentioned a lot already. Make range 4 guns better and give a few more surpressive. Really push empire as the gunline faction.

Holy crap how did I miss that??? GAR does not really have a downside to token sharing! I wonder if that would be the best way to nurf them? Just give a suppression or other negative token if they share so many times?

And boy howdy does CIS feel like the best made faction. A clear identity, a mechanic that you have to build around, and a clear weakness. Dooku's command card that puts tokens in the bag pretty reqirues u to empty out that bag........... I'm am a CIS fanboy and proud of it!

I think supression is a little harsh for a downside. GAR is already susceptible to suppression as is.

18 hours ago, Lochlan said:

I never said AI was an advantage. In fact, I said "that it's more like the opposite of an ability." However, AI clearly comes with a pretty big reduction in points cost.

I actually think it's the other way around. CIS units have AI (all droid troopers and vehicles so far have it), but they have access to tools to ignore it (coordinate is the obvious one, but they also have upgrade cards that specifically disable it). It's a bit of a pedantic difference, but it's possible to build a CIS list with no coordinate, whereas you can't build a CIS list with no AI.

Those upgrade cards that disable AI cost points thus negating the benefit of being cheaper to some point and also usually using one or more of your upgrade slots. And until we get some cheaper command and support options points are not always available for getting the whole army To be more self sufficient.

14 hours ago, RyantheFett said:

Holy crap how did I miss that??? GAR does not really have a downside to token sharing! I wonder if that would be the best way to nurf them? Just give a suppression or other negative token if they share so many times?

No they don't pay anything. Their cheapest soldier isn't 13pts per model. Their most used soldier isn't 15pts per model.

GAR already has a problem with suppression. Having very few ways to get rid of it (i.e. inspire). Or having to pay for ways to get around it: supporting fire, phase 1 captains, phase 2 courage 2.

20 hours ago, lologrelol said:

No they don't pay anything. Their cheapest soldier isn't 13pts per model. Their most used soldier isn't 15pts per model.

correct theyre not worth 13 points or 15 points. Theyre undercosted, especially the MK2s. Their points cost should be increased.

another alternative would be to remove token sharing from all clones, but give them a 5 point gear card that gives them the token sharing ability

that way you have the option to run the cheaper clone unit without token sharing or pay extra for the token sharing upgrade.

thatd be preferable to making them suffer suppression for sharing tokens.

.

42 minutes ago, Khobai said:

20 hours ago, lologrelol said:

they don't pay anything. Their cheapest soldier isn't 13pts per model. Their most used soldier isn't 15pts per model.

correct theyre not worth 13 points or 15 points. Theyre undercosted, especially the MK2s. Their points cost should be increased.

another alternative would be to remove token sharing from all clones, but give them a 5 point gear card that gives them the token sharing ability

that way you have the option to run the cheaper clone unit without token sharing or pay extra for the token sharing upgrade.

thatd be preferable to making them suffer suppression for sharing tokens.

.

The suppression was just a random idea. Not sure if they really have a good token right now in Legion like it so in Xwing that is negative but not crippling?

Cleanest option would be to cap the tokens that can be shared? Not sure how hard of a nuff that is to the whole faction, but it would add some hard choices for GAR players. Once again Xwing has a cap on the sharing tokens and it feels pretty good play wise on both sides of the table.

23 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

The suppression was just a random idea. Not sure if they really have a good token right now in Legion like it so in Xwing that is negative but not crippling?

Cleanest option would be to cap the tokens that can be shared? Not sure how hard of a nuff that is to the whole faction, but it would add some hard choices for GAR players. Once again Xwing has a cap on the sharing tokens and it feels pretty good play wise on both sides of the table.

Even just saying that suppressed clones cant give or receive tokens would be a good limit without making it too complicated.

I do think its a cool, thematic, ability so I would hate to see it go. But limiting it to unsuppressed clones would introduce more counterplay options.

On 9/17/2020 at 5:05 PM, Xclbr1 said:

With Clones and Droids having their own (quite strong) faction abilities, what do you believe would be some potential faction abilities for Rebels and Imperials?

I don't play much Imps, so idk about them but some different ideas for Rebels that take into consideration their whole "Take cover/gurrilla warfare" idea:

- At the start of the activation phase, each Rebel unit in base contact with a piece of terrain gains 1 dodge token

Or

- When a Rebel unit performs a move action, if their final position is in base contact with a terrain piece, gain 1 dodge token

Or

- When a Rebel unit performs an attack, 2 friendly units at range 1 may gain a dodge token

Just some different ideas to give Rebels a bit more surviveability, and put Nimble on the board as a decent keyword. Option 3 kinda makes the generic 3-pip useless, but it kinda was in the first place...

Why not just allow all Rebels to share dodge tokens. Those with nimble are able to replace the token they used. Those without nimble use up the token.

Im really not certain what could be given to Imperials. They may be at the bottom of the power list of factions right now, but it wouldn’t take much to put them in the OP category. As an example, the Shore Trooper/Mortar/Comms Relay nonsense did make them OP. Besides Empire has been on top since Scout Troopers came out, so they can wait for the next few new units to be announced and I’m sure their power levels will improve. The Rebels by contrast haven’t had an easy road and are only now coming into their own. A little boost like sharing dodges would make them a very good faction, and one that I’m sure could rival the Republic.

1 hour ago, JediPartisan said:

Why not just allow all Rebels to share dodge tokens. Those with nimble are able to replace the token they used. Those without nimble use up the token.

Im really not certain what could be given to Imperials. They may be at the bottom of the power list of factions right now, but it wouldn’t take much to put them in the OP category. As an example, the Shore Trooper/Mortar/Comms Relay nonsense did make them OP. Besides Empire has been on top since Scout Troopers came out, so they can wait for the next few new units to be announced and I’m sure their power levels will improve. The Rebels by contrast haven’t had an easy road and are only now coming into their own. A little boost like sharing dodges would make them a very good faction, and one that I’m sure could rival the Republic.

Imo, sharing dodges wouldn't help some of the problems of having keywords like nimble in the first place, someone has to take the dodge action in the first place, and you often won't get to get a dodge before getting shot anyway. If you do then you probably only get one, which won't help a whole lot, so you have to waste multiple units actions taking dodges. On top of that it's just a worse version of the Clone ability, so it doesn't really give the faction a separate identity.

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Why not just allow all Rebels to share dodge tokens. Those with nimble are able to replace the token they used. Those without nimble use up the token.

Never ending dodge tokens for an entire army, especially one with numerous ways gain free dodge tokens, would be quite ridiculous. It would make OP Luke even unfun to play against, as you just keep him close to rebel troopers and Leia, and you are guaranteed to be punching through a small mountain of dodges that only disappear if Luke spends them. People complain about Clone sharing, but at least there once it's spent, it's gone.

I don't think rebels should be allowed to share tokens like clones.

An alternative could be that when a rebel trooper unit makes a dodge action, one other rebel trooper unit within range 1 gets a free dodge token.

The last thing rebels need is dodge token sharing, because you still have to give up your actions to generate dodge tokens, which SUCKS. What rebels actually need is better action economy for generating dodge tokens so generating a dodge token doesnt cost them an action every time.

Is there a keyword like Target 1 but for dodge tokens? Call it something like Evade 1? whenever this unit is issued a command token it gains a free dodge token.

Because thats what rebel troopers need. When theyre issued a faceup command token they should get a free dodge token.

It all starts with fixing the rebel troopers first. By making the rebel troopers more self sufficient Leia can then pass out the dodge tokens to other units that need them. Leia is taxed way too much to give dodge tokens to everyone and she cant do it. Shes not Padme.

Theres some other units in the army that should also get free dodge tokens. The landspeeder and airspeeder should both get outmaneuver and the same rule where they get a free dodge token if you give them a faceup command token. That way they get the dodge token at the start of the turn rather than having to wait until their activation. Actually I think all speeders in every faction should get those rules.

57 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Is there a keyword like Target 1 but for dodge tokens? Call it something like Evade 1? whenever this unit is issued a command token it gains a free dodge token.

It's called Defend, and Rebel Veterans (the parallel release to Shoretroopers) have it.

well defend makes more sense on rebel troopers than veterans

18 minutes ago, Khobai said:

well defend makes more sense on rebel troopers than veterans

Well, I certainly can't say anything good about Nimble. I think in the entire time I've been playing (since the game came out) I've used it about 5 times, and never on anyone that got shot a second time, which is what makes the ability actually useful. Generally my opponent just kills the stuff that doesn't have Dodge tokens or deals so much damage the Dodge token is worthless.

Rebel Troopers with a dodge token are actually pretty spot on for where they should be for survivability. They should be slightly less survivable than Stormtroopers. Im not even counting nimble because its not something you can rely on. Nimble is just a bonus thing.

The problem is rebel troopers have no way of getting that dodge token for free. If they had a way to get the dodge token for free they would be perfect. So giving them defend 1 makes a lot of sense IMO.

I also think stormtroopers could use a similar buff to their offense because precise 1 is really bad. I think precise 1 should be changed to let you reroll 1 dice in your attack pool regardless of whether you use an aim token or not.