Hello,

Lifthrasir and I made a sheet with diplomatic relationships between the Great Clans: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jfZdoO_FBUMY2F4rRy7Z9Pr-ibmUzuMcxiSvONo_m0k/
The second tab is for English version.
Note: we do not found sources for the Crane-Phoenix relationship, so it's empty atm.

More tools at https://www.nucreum.com/l5r/

Technically there's friendship between the two groups and that's part of the reason why the Phoenix did not admit to the Crane that they caused the Tsunami. So they are being extra friendly to the Crane and the excuse is helping a Clan when it's down.

1 hour ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Technically there's friendship between the two groups and that's part of the reason why the Phoenix did not admit to the Crane that they caused the Tsunami. So they are being extra friendly to the Crane and the excuse is helping a Clan when it's down.

Nice!
Can you find the sources about this so I can add it to the sheet? Thanks!

Very good but it’s more complex than what you wrote

the crab and crâne relationship for example is complicated by the yasuki family switching clan while they maintain lots of respect for the daidoji family and their iron warriors who are among the few in the empire to serve on the wall with them

so your chart should only be used in broad general terms

the crane and the Phoenix are usually friendly due to the bridge that is the asahina family. Founded by a former Phoenix and completely pacifist

9 hours ago, Nucreum said:

Nice!
Can you find the sources about this so I can add it to the sheet? Thanks!

Some of the novels make a mention of that. From the Crane side I think it’s one where Kakita Yoshi is the protagonist. From the Phoenix side I think it’s one of the earlier.

4 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

Very good but it’s more complex than what you wrote

the crab and crâne relationship for example is complicated by the yasuki family switching clan while they maintain lots of respect for the daidoji family and their iron warriors who are among the few in the empire to serve on the wall with them

so your chart should only be used in broad general terms

the crane and the Phoenix are usually friendly due to the bridge that is the asahina family. Founded by a former Phoenix and completely pacifist

Of course it is more complex; but on an general point of view, Crane and Crab are disliking each others a lot. Like books say, villages near the frontier are always switching clans because of fights, Crane provoke Crab using Jade to make jewelery, etc.

On 9/16/2020 at 9:26 AM, MB -Fr- said:

the crane and the Phoenix are usually friendly due to the bridge that is the asahina family. Founded by a former Phoenix and completely pacifist

There's also a close family tie via the Tsume no Doji family; the daimyo of Kyotei Castle, Tsume Itsuyo, is actually a Phoenix by birth - before being adopted into the Tsume she was Shiba Itsuyo, daughter of the Phoenix daimyo of Nikesake.

16 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

There's also a close family tie via the Tsume no Doji family; the daimyo of Kyotei Castle, Tsume Itsuyo, is actually a Phoenix by birth - before being adopted into the Tsume she was Shiba Itsuyo, daughter of the Phoenix daimyo of Nikesake.

She married into the Tsume. And her father is Shiba Katsuda, one of the original Phoenix bushi from the CCG.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

She married into the Tsume

She did not. She was betrothed to the Tsume daimyo, but there was an....incident....on the wedding day and the wedding never actually happened as Tsume no Doji Takashi didn't survive the journey to the wedding venue.

Since she was going to become spouse of the Tsume daimyo, and the Tsume family was otherwise extinct (the ruling line, anyway, regardless of the odd samurai entitled to the name), Doji Kuzunobu officially adopted her into the Crane on his wife's behalf and made her daimyo of Kyotei.

8 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

She did not. She was betrothed to the Tsume daimyo, but there was an....incident....on the wedding day and the wedding never actually happened as Tsume no Doji Takashi didn't survive the journey to the wedding venue.

Since she was going to become spouse of the Tsume daimyo, and the Tsume family was otherwise extinct (the ruling line, anyway, regardless of the odd samurai entitled to the name), Doji Kuzunobu officially adopted her into the Crane on his wife's behalf and made her daimyo of Kyotei.

What it says in the article here is that:

" Ultimately, however, it was the newly married Tsume no Doji Itsuyo who became the custodian of the valley (46% of all Crane groups), sealing the alliance between the Crane and Phoenix Clans. "

" Tsume Takashi, heartbroken at being united with his former lover only to lose her again, resigned his position and committed seppuku after fulfilling his last duty as lord in marrying Itsuyo . "

(empahsis mine) although

" Doji Kuzunobu, husband to Doji Hotaru and one of the wedding’s guests, accepted her oaths of fealty to the Doji family and recognized her as the new lord. "

While Kuzunobu was involved, it was in taking the normal oath of fealty that any new daimyo would need to give to their liege.

My apologies.

3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

My apologies.

Don't worry, it's ok! Committing Seppuku will be enough. 👀

Was getting mixed up between the storyline of the adventure and the collated storyline published afterwards. In the adventure, if Takashi gets killed, it's almost inevitably (accidentally) by Reika in the fight prior to the wedding.

Certainly that's what's happened in any group I've seen play through, and it's the main reason it's so hard to get a Lion 'win'.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

My apologies.

None was required.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Was getting mixed up between the storyline of the adventure and the collated storyline published afterwards. In the adventure, if Takashi gets killed, it's almost inevitably (accidentally) by Reika in the fight prior to the wedding.

Certainly that's what's happened in any group I've seen play through, and it's the main reason it's so hard to get a Lion 'win'.

Yeah, the facts of what happened are unlikely to come up in any single play through, but the collation of the various results produces a nice samurai drama.

I'm also happy that Itsuyo's showed up in the main story - it shows that FFG are paying attention to the RPG as well as the CG, where AEG just treated the RPG as an add-on.

As far as I am aware, the Crab and Unicorn are generally on fairly amicable terms. Yes, the Dark Moto incident was a big issue, but it is also the Moto's greatest shame and one they would die to get rid of (and many do). In the meantime, the Unicorn have mended fences and tend to give the Crab a fair bit of respect. Both clans tend to be seen as somewhat of outsiders among Rokugan's high society (which iirc causes a fair bit of friction between the Unicorn and Crane courtiers, despite the good start of their relationship). After all, the Crane embody Rokugan's mainstream culture, which the Unicorn challenges.

I do not know how much of the 4E clan stereotypes were changed in 5E, but in the the 4E core book, in the "clan view" section for the crab has them talk about the Unicorn as the closest allies among the major clans, while the Unicorns are mentioned to appreciate the Crab's lack of prejudice against them.

4E is not a reliable source anymore, 5E and 4E are very different in some points, like this one.
In 5E, when they speak about these 2 clans, it is mostly to depict tensions between both of them. It is even a diplomatic move from the Lion clan to ally with the Crab Clan, as they share the hostility against the Unicorn and plan to invade them.

We had a long conversation on French forums to understand why they are not friends, as 4E sounded logical, but in the end we found many explanations to that. There are historic points, but also political ones.
If you are interested, you can use Google Translate to read it: http://www.fantasyflightgames.fr/sujet/211516-le_crabe_et_ses_relations_diplomatiques

Anyways, for FFG Crab and Unicorn are not in great terms overall.

Interesting, I hadn't seen anything on the topic. I noticed that the English version featured a lot of The Great Clans quotes, so I though the basics of the 4E diplomacy held unless something in 5E specifically conflicted them. The Crab and Unicorns are both seen as somewhat unusual and barbaric by most.

Naturally, viewpoints can vary across the clans. There are likely Crabs still annoyed about the 9th century incident, just as there are possibly others who have far more recent issues with the Crane and have less than zero interest in joining a fight alongside the Lions who seem more interested in throwing their weight around rather than helping them fight the war that actually matters.

One might wonder why the Crane, the clan that is proudest of its diplomatic ability, is in conflict with 5 of the 7 other clans. (Although I would doubt that the rivalry between Kakita and Mirumoto amounts to so much as clan hostility.)

The answer lies in another relationship not in the diagram: That to the emperor.
The Crane always was the clan closest to the emperor, its left hand and the source of his wives.
It was also the richest clan, which is why they could afford to spend their time on art and petty court intrigue.

Which is why they are hit so hard now: There is no emperor, and the tsunami destroyed the source of their wealth. They face opponents in the fields in the Lion, in the courts in the scorpion and the regent, and in economics in the Crab dealing with the Mantis.

What are the five clans?

Surely, Lion-Crane conflicts are as old as the Empire and aside from the Yasuki War, the Crab and Clane haven’t had any military conflict. Heck, the Daidoji send some of their soldiers for a season at the Wall as a show of collaboration.

The Kakita-Mirumoto rivalry is much more bragging rights about which style is better than actual animosity (as it is for Kakita-Matsu).

The Unicorn and the Crane were never really friends but never enemies either.

Same with the Phoenix, in some ways, some Crane agree with the pacifism of the Phoenix.

That leaves the Scorpion, which is surely political conflicts rather than military ones.

That puts 2 clans against the Crane, I’ll give 0.5 for counting the Mantis (which doesn’t imply the Crab are helping the Mantis).

9 hours ago, DSalazar said:

What are the five clans?

The GoogleDocs document lists all but Phoenix and Unicorn as hostile.
When I said "conflict", I didn't means nessessarily martial, as I referred to their diplomatic ability.