7 minutes ago, BCooper85 said:

Maybe the Phoenix Cell Pack will help the ship out somehow???????

One thing that would be huge is rebels getting a big 'draw' generic talent, like Heroic, which is super agressively priced despite being low impact. Part of why Heroic is so good is that it is way better than you might expect for 1 point, despite its 'overt' influence being low, and it solves a big problem that trying to run a 'narrow generic' list can create, mainly that your dice are very inconsistent due to lacking the ability to mod a lot of stuff.

Rebels getting a talent you basically put on by 'default' would help them a lot, and push power into the chasis without lowering its price more. I think the thing rebels need is more power at the 'top' and 'middle' rather than the bottom: Naked generics can't get any better directly without things getting silly (Like say... allowing an XXXUU list to exist, which would be very dumb), so rebels need more power pushed into other places, such as their I3 and I4 pilots, upgrade options, and 'deluxe' ships, and getting some heroic equivalent (obviously not the same effect, but something similar that is so efficient for its price you would be willing to upgrade generics to generic+'s, or to then named pilots, just to be allowed to take it) would be a big step towards that which Phoenix Cell could take.

One 'trap' I think FFG fell into was trying to make the generics reflect the 'real value' of the chasis, and the upgraded pilots and upgrades on the X-wing the 'real difference' in power between the basic ship and the upgrade. But with the X-wing they are in a bit of a pickle because that relationship can't be maintained without dipping the generic so low that some degenerate thing becomes allowed. So I think the fix is to break that relationship and 'pretend' that the difference between the named pilots and the generics is smaller so they can go down further, sorta like how it was 'pretended' that the Zealot and the Blue Squaddy were equal before FFG was willing to take the plunge on 5X to prevent a 40 point CAS from existing, despite it clearly being a downgrade from the Bluey.

Having interesting (low-cost) astro mechs might help.

4 hours ago, Target_2.0 said:

Having interesting (low-cost) astro mechs might help.

I think they would maybe need to be Rebel only though so the Jedi do not cost those out of use.

4 hours ago, Target_2.0 said:

Having interesting (low-cost) astro mechs might help.

Especially in Rebel alone, the astromech slot might be a good slot to position like the sensor slot or tech slot as something you generally need to find a reason to not fill, rather than a reason to fill with a super high value cheap option, and then more ritzy options. If you had 2-3 really obviously good 1-3 point droids, it also helps make the identity of rebel losing lots of power for an extra 2-3 points of efficiency on their peers make more sense, as now there are really clearly great places to spend that on even if you can't do something wacky like cram in an extra U-wing or B-wing into a list.

It also creates a lot of room to basically let you 'bolt' a second power onto the I3-I4 crew to reward you for flying synergistic style ships in a game that discourages that, and lets certain abilities get 'patched' (Like how Garven really needs an ability that 'force spends' a focus to make sense as the X-wing synergy piece, or how Corran's double tap really doesn't make a ton of sense without some way to exploit the narrowed uptime window or somehow mod both attacks in one turn). Also avoids pushing power into the U-wing or B-wing, which are extremely strong ships that could see play at any second as long as they have good ships to fly along that support them well or benefit from them.

We aren't talking about super crazy power level changes, because, again, rebels have always had this borderline dangerous element. Just a little more of that lil somethin somethin to make them an attractive sidegrade, rather than a downgrade, be it being able to run 3 mid grade named characters and an ace instead of Poe running with 3 black squadies, a really high value droid, a different talent, or the ability to run a sub 50 point torper. They are lacking an extra value add every other faction has access to.

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

I think they would maybe need to be Rebel only though so the Jedi do not cost those out of use.

Encouraging multiple unique, competitive loadouts for toolbox ships is definitely going to take some effort on the developers.

Both X-Wing factions need competitive reasons to run loadouts besides lowest cost, lowest initiative naked generics.

I'm not fundamentally against vanilla generics, but I think that best suits only a few chassis, like the Z-95 or Torrent or ARC-170.

Toolboxers should be puzzle pieces that add wrinkles into dogfights far and beyond, "joust my three-dice gun, bro; I've got hit points".

I'll call out TIE defenders while I'm at it. ...They could stand a config or two that shakes up their meta play.

I'm hoping for a couple of sweet titles coming soon to the T65 ("Rogue Squadron", anyone?) and maybe a rebel only Mod like a refit or something to shake things up.

--Rogue Leader: Deploy at initiative 7 anywhere beyond r3 of enemy ships.

Rogue Squad Pilot: deploy anywhere beyond r3 of enemy.

New Republic Refit: Spend 1 nonrecurring charge from a non-limited astro or Torp upgrade to perform a boost action, then you may aquire a target lock.

____

Just brainstorming 'cuz I love T65s...

It always feels a little wrong to put an X-wing on the table without an Astromech and proton torpedoes.

3 hours ago, Bucknife said:

--Rogue Leader: Deploy at initiative 7 anywhere beyond r3 of enemy ships.

Rogue Squad Pilot: deploy anywhere beyond r3 of enemy.

Deployment games tend to seem low value outside of some bomb gimmicks, and X-wings seem to want to do a 'slow' engage. Still, it is thematic (you could include flavor text on the Rogue Squad Pilot to include the trivia that the hyperdrives of X-wings allowed the rebels to arrive on location ready to fight, while everyone has to scramble which makes it really clear what is happening in universe: the rebels jumped in right on top of you!) and it might let you do things like force a turn 1 joust, or at least make it harder to avoid with an entire list.

It thematically is cool, and helps give the rebels some identity again as the 'scrappy gurellas' as opposed to the Resistance with their high tech government surplus ships.

3 hours ago, Bucknife said:

New Republic Refit: Spend 1 nonrecurring charge from a non-limited astro or Torp upgrade to perform a boost action, then you may aquire a target lock.

This is rough if any non-limited astros from the new republic era show up, and it isn't like R2 is seeing too much play anyway. It is interesting though, as it allows the R5 to twice per game let X-wings suddenly take 3 actions in the form of a repo (which lets them actually use their initiative more proactively), a focus or a second repo, and a lock, for a double modded shot or a full arc dodge and a modded shot. It also encourages astros without actually giving rebels new astros or changing their cost, which is and interesting way to buff tools for one faction specifically without printing new cards: In theory you could make other upgrades that synergize with astro charges at varying costs, including 0.

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

It always feels a little wrong to put an X-wing on the table without an Astromech and proton torpedoes.

I can take or leave the torps, but astromechs in the 'deep lore' of Star wars are supposed to be this titanic value add for starfighters because it effectively lets a very small starfighter have a co-pilot and engineer, which was a big advantage of the rebels.

Hyperspace Rebels have some fun options:

• Luke Braylen Jake + (Thane/Ten/Norra/etc.)
• Luke Braylen Han
• Luke 2 T65 2 RZ1A
• Leia + 3 T65

Luke and the Blue Squadrons are the two main options to try and build around.

The nice thing with Luke is he is extraordinarily durable vs 2 dice focus attacks ( roughly 1`2 shots worth of durability without Regen )

Generally you need to understand how to leverage the boost action (in build up to engagement rounds and after the fact ) to get the most out of them.

What if we brought back flight assist astromech?

6 charges, recurring

"Setup: spend 3 charges for every agility you have"

After you execute a manuver, If you have no enemy ships in your [front arc], and you have 1 or more inactive Charge, you may perform a boost or barrel roll action"

The idea is that it let's X-wings get the engagement they want and do some ace play, but you can't rely on it to become a double repositioning arc Dodger. Also helps E wings get a good engage. Y-wings can use it too, but since they're so clunky they can't get much out of it.

1-2 points?

Edit: rebel only, of course

Rebels need Rogue Squadron i4 T-65 at 41/42 pts imho. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find Luke particularly interesting because he can double-mod his attacks and he regens his defenses when he's being attacked. But he costs a lot.

The main thing about X-wings is their action economy that is not as par as other ships. All but Luke (if you don't have a coordination vessel with them) do not get double mods, and they don't have an evade or a heroic to save very bad rolls. And the astromechs do not give them firepower, only mobility. Which is already far from bad with their foils.

Big nope on the super cheap, even better afterburners you got there @Roller of blanks.

I am interested in getting FAA back in the game, but not like that. The idea that I had been work-shopping is for medium base only since they hurt for mobility.

It doesn't help X-Wings, but ARCs, Kimogilas, and a Havoc Scurrg could use some help in the mobility department.

For X-wings, however, I propose that more named cheap Astromechs be made. In 1st, several of T65 pilots had a specific astromech that synergized with them. That should be embraced again. A few spitball ideas:

Garven's Mech - after you perform an attack, you may spend focus to acquire a lock on the defender. This helps for those times that Garven cannot spend his focus, (i.e. nattie blanks, nattie hits). Could be okay on others, especially Luke, but best on Garven.

Jek's Mech - After you remove a stress token, you may flip your equipped configuration upgrade. Jek can now 4k clear stress, flip foils to focus then boost, clear stress, flips foils to get his extra die back. Decent on others, but best on Jek.

Biggs' Mech - 1 charge, non-recurring. Before you engage. you may spend one charge. If you do, if you are destroyed you are not removed until the end of the end phase. This allows Biggs to continue soaking damage for others at initiatives below i3, but still allows him to be removed at i4 or above. Good on other X's with Selfless, but best on Biggs.

Leevan's Mech - 2 charges, non-recurring. When you would preform an evade or boost action, you may spend 1 charge. If you do, you may treat that action as white. This allows triple action economy on Leevan. It also makes the config boost on other white twice. Good on others, but best on Leevan.

@5050Saint

Big difference from afterburners is that they only work in the early game. Granted maybe it should be first 5,4, or 3 turns, but still

Astro mechs are a must for the X! This was missed in 1.0 and still a miss now.

one Mech to allow slam

one mech to give evade

one mech for tech slot.

(and one mech to rule the all!😉🤣)

2 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

(and one mech to rule the all!😉🤣)

...and on the game mat bind them.

13 minutes ago, Spinland said:

...and on the game mat bind them.

19 hours ago, dezzmont said:

I can take or leave the torps, but astromechs in the 'deep lore' of Star wars are supposed to be this titanic value add for starfighters because it effectively lets a very small starfighter have a co-pilot and engineer, which was a big advantage of the rebels.

Yes well the fundamental function of the Astromech was deemed undesirable in the game. They need to them find some other function for the slot. Rebels could maybe get some Astromech that do similar things as the Republic only units or tech or sensor upgrades. We are headed again for X-wing without X-wings.

9 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

Astro mechs are a must for the X! This was missed in 1.0 and still a miss now.

one Mech to allow slam

one mech to give evade

one mech for tech slot.

(and one mech to rule the all!😉🤣)

A mech that gave evade would really help Luke justify his points.

Personally I'd love them to drop Selfless to 1 point and see what happens. I doubt it would make a huge difference, as it only works on crits, but any help the Rebels can get when jousting, the better.

5 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

A mech that gave evade would really help Luke justify his points.

Personally I'd love them to drop Selfless to 1 point and see what happens. I doubt it would make a huge difference, as it only works on crits, but any help the Rebels can get when jousting, the better.

I think the justification for selfless being 1 would be "how does this compare to Heroic?" My guess is it's a little bit better, so maybe 2? If I could say 1.5 I would, but rebels need all the help they can get like you said, so I'd be happy with 1.

I think heroic is better than selfless because heroic can prevent damage where selfless only moves it around.

Also there's the range bubble and arc requirement for selfless where heroic is always on

1 point selfless might go too far. 2 points would be a good trial costing.

I'm gonna plug instance scaled pricing here, since Selfless gets better the more that are on the board. 1 point for 1 Selfless upgrade in a list. 2 points each for 2 Selfless in a list. 3 points for 3 or more Selfless in a list.

I'd be much more interested in a 2e Flight Assist Astromech if it had a penalty instead of a charge limit. Charge Limits are an easy way to restrict totally busted stuff from 1e (and FFA was massively busted), but penalties are usually much more interesting on the table. Suppose it gave you a deplete token? Giving folks free boosts/rolls is a lot more palatable when it also eats their red dice.

What if it's a full disarm token, but the trigger is now before you engage. Don't have a shot? You get a free move action. You still can't shoot, but at least you got a move action out of it.

//

if FAA was mostly the same as 1e but just charge-based? Make it unique. Stick on it the ID number from, like, Garven Dreis' Astromech.

3 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

1 point selfless might be too much. 2 points would be a good trial costing.

I'm gonna plug instance scaled pricing here, since Selfless gets better the more that are on the board. 1 point for 1 Selfless upgrade in a list. 2 points each for 2 Selfless in a list. 3 points for 3 or more Selfless in a list.

I don't like instance-scaled pricing in general, but this might be a good use for it. Damage-spreading really becomes a lot more powerful the more there is of it.

Just now, theBitterFig said:

I don't like instance-scaled pricing in general, but this might be a good use for it. Damage-spreading really becomes a lot more powerful the more there is of it.

The only issue that I have with above is that if you're bringing selfless seriously, you're probably bringing 3, and at 3 points now it's still not great. Maybe if the 1st costs 1, 2 for the second, and 3 for each past that could work, but that creates huge issues for scoring.

You have to go back to core themes of the game, the V1 core set was Empire equaled more defence dice, less offence, greater numbers. Rebels equaled greater offence, with tool kit upgrade to punch even higher, less defence dice, greater sheilds with greater endurance regen.

In V2 the Empire and other factions have maintained the 3 agility, 2 attack, low to mid level HP, with good dials theme. They also seem to have plenty of ways to crank up that offence, either by gaining additional attack dice or gaining ways to double mods from abilities, support or crew.

However Rebels, and Resistance to some extent, had reduced regen and because the Jedi were an amalgamation of everything it has been priced out all together. They've lost thier toolkit too punch harder, because protons punch to hard against themselves and factions like them. Also V2 is very hard on giving defensive modes out likely, trying to create faster games by concentrating on offence. That means that the rebels only induring defence is large HP pools. A culture of beef list was only logical recourse but even that wasn't allowed to be good for long. Rebel's have lost any theme they had.

Factions like the empire, first order and maybe Republic are doing better because they can still punch up thier offence while maintaining good defence. How many games have you shot at Sontir, Ren or Vader with multiple 3-4 dice attacks and they've shrugged them off for no damage. How many have had Wedge take one 3 dice attack and he's half pointed.

This issue with Rebels and a lesser extent Resistance is if regen is off the table and so are extreme offence, they need more ways to get consistent defence. Luke, Finn and Rose are 2 defence dice ships that see a lot of play because they can do just that and endure longer.

With that in mind... some loose ideas.

For starters would it be to much to have a new S-foil config that while closed reduced offence but upped agility and gave you a focus - red evade action? Giving you the option to switch between offensive or defensive. It would be a priced config similar to the delta-7b title.

Or

Astromech - 2 charges. At the start of engagment phase you may spend a charge and gain a reinforce token. Seems thematic and may see you through a bad turn. Small base, Rebels or Resistance only tho.