1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

I’m glad someone posted this. Defection is definitely represented in canon post-Endor.

And pre-yavin, with Wedge and Hobbie, as well as agent Kallus.

1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

I’m glad someone posted this. Defection is definitely represented in canon post-Endor.

Agreed, thank you @Odanan , loving it! 👍

7 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

And pre-yavin, with Wedge and Hobbie, as well as agent Kallus.

Not to forget Galen and Bodhi from Rogue One. Sabine Wren and Ketsu Onyo were trained at the Imperial Academy on Lothal. Thane Kyrell is another example from new canon... Finn went straight from the First Order into a Resistance command meeting... then there was Hux in TROS ( 🤣 🤣 🤣 )

...you know, at this point we may have to ask what new canon stories don't feature defectors? 🤣

22 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

And the Alliance accepting defectors is a totally different premise when they're an underground guerrilla faction who need all the resources and inside knowledge they can get. Everyone who defected to the Rebels at this point had to really mean it because they were going from the massive, controlling faction with all the resources to the rag tag bunch of dissidents being actively hunted. It was basically going from the winning side to the losing side, so you had to really believe in what you were doing.

By the time of Endor, they're basically a full blown galactic power and accepting defectors into their rank becomes dangerous politically and militarily. They're the 'winning' side now. You don't just blindly accept new recruits from the enemy you've suddenly routed because the odds are they're only doing it to protect their own skin.

I think this bears repeating. Changing sides while the rebels are just a rag tag bunch of misfits is much different from "Welp, the Empire's done for, I might as well serve the new regime". Which is why Traitor's Remorse existed. It was basically an interment camp for former Imperials to determine what to do with them. It was made explicit that the New Republic does not trust the defectors. Despite being an exception allowed, Yrica Quell is continually mistrusted by many of the New Repuplic.

Yrica's (and Iden and Dell) don't defect because they don't beleive in the general idea of the Empire, but rather because of Operation Cinder spelling doom to loyal Imperial friendlies. The didn't truly defect, but rather they were branded traitor by the Empire for disagreeing with Cinder.

42 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Yrica's (and Iden and Dell) don't defect because they don't beleive in the general idea of the Empire, but rather because of Operation Cinder spelling doom to loyal Imperial friendlies. The didn't truly defect, but rather they were branded traitor by the Empire for disagreeing with Cinder.

How strange. So it's totally fine for the New Republic to accept individual elite pilots and officers who were still believers in the ideals pf the Empire but were cast out and branded as traitors, but not for the New Republic to recruit from legions of conscripted/drafted Imperial trained military personnel who were only serving with the Empire because they had no other choice?

Sounds legit.

4 hours ago, Odanan said:

Not dozens, probably millions.

I suggest you to read the Alphabet Squadron book.

If they wanted me to read that, they should have given it a less stupid name.

7 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

How strange. So it's totally fine for the New Republic to accept individual elite pilots and officers who were still believers in the ideals pf the Empire but were cast out and branded as traitors, but not for the New Republic to recruit from legions of conscripted/drafted Imperial trained military personnel who were only serving with the Empire because they had no other choice?

They were all suspect. Clearly from Alphabet Squadron, you can see that it isn't totally fine. Yrica is made an exception because she has specific intel and connections, not because she's an elite pilot or officer. And she is still treated as if she might betray the New Republic at any point. It's less clear how Iden was treated during her fledgling time in the Alliance, as we get less context (video game vs book). She may have gotten the same suspect treatment that Yrica got, we don't know. The game goes from "I surrender" to six months later, so we don't get to see. Leia does dress her down, but likely turning over an entire Imperial Raider to the Rebellion helped earn some good will.

I'm not saying it's fair. I am saying that they didn't just wholesale take anyone into their military, no questions asked. Invoking Godwin's Law, Nazis that defected before Hitler's death were accepted. After however, they were treated more suspect. Exceptions were made for Nazis with special intel and knowledge. Apply this principle to the Space Nazis, and it plays out similarly.

Yep.

Here is another excerpt, this time from a Rebel intel officer POV:

Cinder had been a turning point. Loyal soldiers who had executed whole planets at the Emperor’s behest had seen billions of lives snuffed out for no strategic gain and known that the moral calculus had changed. Imperial heroes unable to stomach the slaughter had turned on their superiors. Naboo, the Emperor’s own homeworld, had been saved from genocide with the aid of Imperial Special Forces commandos. They had come to a shared realization: It was one thing to fight a losing battle, and another to disregard the cost.

That had been the second wave of desertions and defections.

Which meant anyone who’d stayed afterward had made a conscious choice to forget the cost. To forget the fact that preserving the Empire as it had been was a lost cause. To fight on anyway, consequences be damned.

Every day after Operation Cinder, the pointlessness of the carnage became clearer. Every day, those remaining inside the Empire were tested anew. So far as Quell was concerned, the men and women aboard the GR-75 transport had failed too many tests to deserve sympathy or redemption. The ones who came tomorrow would be worse still.

In regard to operation cinder... how widely known was it? If I recall, the palpatine droids were only sent to select commanders to carry out, not to every officer in the fleet, were they not?

14 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

In regard to operation cinder... how widely known was it? If I recall, the palpatine droids were only sent to select commanders to carry out, not to every officer in the fleet, were they not?

It was secret until... well, ya know... it happened. Once it happened, it was public.

Hard to hide the equivalent of nuking multiple cities, yeah. Especially because Operation Cinder was also carried out by the Imperial Fleet because of all the space battles and such.

4 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

In regard to operation cinder... how widely known was it? If I recall, the palpatine droids were only sent to select commanders to carry out, not to every officer in the fleet, were they not?

Yeah the messenger droids weren't sent out to everyone. I assume that was for contuinety as well (lost stars was wrote in 2015 and battlefront was in 2017). For instance Thane is convinced that the republic will give Ciena Ree a pass in lost stars if she cooperates and that was after the battle of jakku.

Thane Tyrell defected shortly after the first death star was destroyed.

Edit I forgot about shattered empire which was also in 2015 which covers operation cinder

On 9/16/2020 at 12:31 PM, FTS Gecko said:

I suppose the other thing to remember - in this post-Empire timeline, at least - is that after Endor, a lot of the New Resistance pilots will have been recruited from the Imperial Navy. *gasp* TRAITORS!!

The entire Rebel fleet was in action in the Battle of Endor, and - despite winning the battle - suffered huge losses. So if they're continuing to fight against the Imperial remnant - and trying to install a new ruling government - then they're going to have to rebuild and expand their fleet. A lot of those new recruits will be defectors, or academy pilots, or militia, or pilots otherwise formerly affiliated with the Empire.

Okay, so people in online discussions don't often do this and it bugs me.

But if it bugs me, then I have to apply my own standards to myself.

So I will admit and own up to being completely and hilariously wrong about my counter arguments to this. And doubling down was just the thing everyone does when they start to lose an argument. All the comments after mine taking about points from the book have made that very clear.

So there. We can formally declare a winner.

I thought I was pretty up to speed on my new canon post Endor story, but it turns out Alphabet Squadron has more going on than I gave it credit for and somehow I managed to basically forget Battlefront II's story despite having played it. Which probably says a lot.

That short is everything I want outta Star Wars...

3 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I thought I was pretty up to speed on my new canon post Endor story, but it turns out Alphabet Squadron has more going on than I gave it credit for and somehow I managed to basically forget Battlefront II's story despite having played it. Which probably says a lot.

Alphabet squadron is a slog to read through. I think the author went overboard on making the squadron too dysfunctional. It helps define the setting but it's hard to root for any of the main characters.

7 hours ago, DarthEnderX said:

That short is everything I want outta Star Wars...

Indeed.. I imagine a series that has characters on both sides. Perhaps alternating every episode to get the different viewpoints.

36 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Indeed.. I imagine a series that has characters on both sides. Perhaps alternating every episode to get the different viewpoints.

For a long time I've been wanting a Star Wars story that takes some cues from Gundam, minus the giant robots of course. Give us some combat pilots on both sides to follow and really get invested in. Tell us why they are on the side they're on to not only humanize some of the Imperial soldiers, but also show us that yeah not every Rebel was a boy scout with purely righteous intentions. Maybe focus in on a smaller conflict like a struggle over control of a single system for the run of the show that has a pretty concrete ending for the protagonists on either side whether that means them retiring, dying, defecting, or whatever. Personally I see a lot of potential in that concept, but then again I'm not in show business so what do I know?

3 minutes ago, Hippie Moosen said:

For a long time I've been wanting a Star Wars story that takes some cues from Gundam, minus the giant robots of course. Give us some combat pilots on both sides to follow and really get invested in. Tell us why they are on the side they're on to not only humanize some of the Imperial soldiers, but also show us that yeah not every Rebel was a boy scout with purely righteous intentions. Maybe focus in on a smaller conflict like a struggle over control of a single system for the run of the show that has a pretty concrete ending for the protagonists on either side whether that means them retiring, dying, defecting, or whatever. Personally I see a lot of potential in that concept, but then again I'm not in show business so what do I know?

I have thought about doing a short series along similar lines (I'm an 3d animator Just out of school), but have a dozen other projects in the works.

On 9/15/2020 at 7:28 PM, Archangelspiv said:

For me, the CIS are the good guys, breaking away from a corrupt system. But because Jedi, people think the Republic are the good guys.

The CIS could have been good guys. The idea of planets breaking away from a corrupt, inefficient government that is not able to provide for them adequately and going their own way under a new coalition is not a bad idea. Then The Clone Wars TV series comes along and shows the CIS conquering worlds, acting oppressive and their leadership generally being mustache twirling bad guys and ruins the idea.

They were bad guys.

1 hour ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Indeed.. I imagine a series that has characters on both sides. Perhaps alternating every episode to get the different viewpoints.

I'd settle for a video game where the single player campaign wasn't a glorified tutorial for the multiplayer.

16 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

I have thought about doing a short series along similar lines (I'm an 3d animator Just out of school), but have a dozen other projects in the works.

Which school? Are you a Maya guy? I'm an old skool Lightwaver but packed up my 3D animation studio last year. More money in data visualization for the DoD and I want to retire in a few years.

1 minute ago, Spinland said:

Which school? Are you a Maya guy? I'm an old skool Lightwaver but packed up my 3D animation studio last year. More money in data visualization for the DoD and I want to retire in a few years.

Local college. Trained in 3dsMax and Maya, now teaching myself blender.

Just now, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Local college. Trained in 3dsMax and Maya, now teaching myself blender.

Nice. Blender is an amazing example of the power of the open source community. I taught computer graphics at the local polytechnic uni for a couple of semesters and I've always highly recommended it as a great tool.

20 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I'd settle for a video game where the single player campaign wasn't a glorified tutorial for the multiplayer.

I really do miss the days of the single player campaign being considered at least an equally good reason to buy a game in comparison to the multiplayer. These days if feels like if the game has multiplayer at all that is the main focus of the entire experience to the point where single player is just kinda tacked on. I don't need to go back to the days of multiplayer being just a cool extra, but it would be great if it wasn't the main portion of the game that get's any attention during development. My internet isn't always reliable, so could we please let the thing I payed over 50 bucks for still be worth playing when my connection goes down?

16 minutes ago, Spinland said:

Nice. Blender is an amazing example of the power of the open source community. I taught computer graphics at the local polytechnic uni for a couple of semesters and I've always highly recommended it as a great tool.

It is also great for those that are not employed yet and want to practice now that their Maya educational licence has expired. 😜

I'm also trying to get better at sculpting so I can make some miniatures, and related objects.

Truth is my overall goal is to make my own Sci-fi rpg-ish boardgame with some AR elements and related media - the same models you see in videos will be the ones you played with. The basis for this was actually and Idea I had for a star wars rpg campaign, that was going to use x-wing miniatures heavily.