Reliable is probably worth slightly more than 5 points because it has the advantage of being independent of command tokens. 6 points is probably about right.

Standby is a paradox. It's basically useless for most units and in most situations because the opportunity cost of investing an action AND not being able to attack combined with the normal range 2 limit makes it too easy to counter and it replaces simply attacking or moving which are both things you could just do under many circumstances. On the other hand, a key unit getting standby tokens without having to invest actions or sacrifice its normal attack is incredibly powerful especially when that unit can bypass normal counterplay by increasing standby range or having the standby token in such a position that it cannot easily be removed.

TL:DR Standby is terrible and great. The Standby action is pretty weak, the effect gained by having standby is incredibly powerful. My recommended change would not be to standby, but to access to the tokens.

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I think I did a poor job of communicating my point. The 8 point difference wasn't just for Reliable, it is also for Courage 2 as opposed to a limited variant of Courage 2 . From my own personal experience I view Courage 2 as better than the Captain's ability, so I value it at least a few points more for being "always active."

agreed. courage 2 is in almost all cases better then tappable suppression ignoring.

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'm also not convinced that an upgrade slot actively has a points value attributed to it over the cost of the upgrade applied, otherwise I would think the Comms specialists models would be not be giving a "discount" on the mandatory comms upgrade. The effect of the comms upgrade should be accurately represented in the cost of adding the card, so why is the comms specialist uniformly cheaper than the extra model?
Also, the points for the Specialists gets.... interesting if we assume that upgrade slots have a points cost associated with them. Excepting the CIS versions, they all cost 4 points more than just an extra trooper, add an upgrade slot, and give a "better" version of Offensive Push. Judging by Offensive Push (which also has an exhaust effect, requires a move, and only gives an aim token) 4 points seems too cheap for the exhaust effect of those cards, which would make the upgrade slot free, or even negative points.

By your logic, an upgrade slot is a penalty. Which it is not! The comm specialist demonstrates, that even FFG realised that the extra body is not worth the same as the initial bodies where static keywords are included. Having an upgrade slot and therefore access to specific upgrades brings value to the unit. If the upgrade price alone justifies the granted rules, there would not be a need for upgrade slots at all. We would have Tauntauns with Jetpacks and force-pushing B1s.

There is only one unit in the game that occasionally takes the com specialist. That is Shoretroopers for getting access to HQ uplink. I bet my house (which I don't own 😄 ) that people would 100% pick a 2 points upgrade for just getting the comms slot over the com specialist with the extra body tax.

The training slot is especially useful for clones with their standby sharing (overwatch) and Take that clankers (offensive push). That's why the clone captain was a viable option in the short period where it was availlable and phase 2s weren't out yet.

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

As for the cost of Reliable 1, we can (somewhat) compare that to Aggressive Tactics in idealized situations. Excepting usages of Coordinate/Entourage, if I recall correctly most commanders will be issuing a total of 12 order tokens in the course of 6 rounds, at a cost of 10 points. So, using that as a base, around 5 points should probably be the cost of Reliable 1, possibly plus 1-2 points for not having a prerequisite.

Since Aggressive Tactics is stapled to clones it's an indicator that it is too cheap. With Fives Clones get even more value out of it. But I agree, reliable 1 is between 6-7 points worth. Which is almost the entire cost difference between P1 and P2. I think +1 courage is easily worth about 4 points and the training slot another 2-3. Resulting in P2 being at least 4 points undercosted. Which is my whole point. People will still pick them over P1s (I think they would still be popular at +8 points).

7 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

By your logic, an upgrade slot is a penalty. Which it is not! The comm specialist demonstrates, that even FFG realised that the extra body is not worth the same as the initial bodies where static keywords are included. Having an upgrade slot and therefore access to specific upgrades brings value to the unit. If the upgrade price alone justifies the granted rules, there would not be a need for upgrade slots at all. We would have Tauntauns with Jetpacks and force-pushing B1s.

There is only one unit in the game that occasionally takes the com specialist. That is Shoretroopers for getting access to HQ uplink. I bet my house (which I don't own 😄 ) that people would 100% pick a 2 points upgrade for just getting the comms slot over the com specialist with the extra body tax.

The training slot is especially useful for clones with their standby sharing (overwatch) and Take that clankers (offensive push). That's why the clone captain was a viable option in the short period where it was availlable and phase 2s weren't out yet.

That's why I said assigning a points value to the upgrade slots gets weird when you try to account for that on the Specialists, it ends up being a negative value, which seems odd.

What upgrade slots are available are part of balancing the unit, by limiting the additional effects it can get. When Comms relay proved powerful on Emplacement troopers, the fix wasn't to remove the comms slot, it was to change the availability of the card. Similarly with the differing points values for Situational Awareness based on Force Org slot.

Here, part of the cost of taking one of the upgrades that provides a different upgrade slot is (or in the case of the Clones will be) the ability to take a Medic or Engineer in the unit, giving up the potential Treat or Repair, both of which can very easily "earn" their points back. You have traded one upgrade slot (the Personnel slot) for another (Comms, Training, Gear) in addition to the points cost of the upgrade providing this access. So of there IS a points cost on each of the upgrade slots, then FFG rates the Personnel slot as more expensive than the others, which would also explain the "discount."

If FFG realized it so early on, then why have the prices on heavy weapons, additional models, or any of the other Personnel upgrades not changed in price? The Specialists packs were released less than a year after the game's release, and there were so few units that would have to be modified that was the optimal time to modify the "extra body tax."

Of course people would pay 2 points rather than any portion of the "body tax," as we have both agreed, the body tax is a bit high for what that additional body adds to the unit.

The body tax also varies depending on the unit.

Adding a comm officer to a unit of stormtroopers is a worse value than adding a comm officer to a unit of shoretroopers.

Because additional stormtroopers are only worth 11 points while additional shoretroopers are worth 13 points. So you actually gain 2 points just by adding a specialist to a shoretrooper unit instead of a stormtrooper unit.

It would be nice if the cost of specialists changed depending on which unit you added them to.

For example if the comm specialist was 8 points to add it to a stormtrooper unit, 9 points to add it to a snowtrooper unit, and 10 points to add it to a shoretrooper unit.

The same goes for the imperial officer. It should be 18 points to add it to a stormtrooper unit, 19 points to add it to a snowtrooper unit, and 20 points to add it to a shoretrooper unit.

And of course non-combatants like the medical droid and astromech should always cost the same regardless of which corps units you add them to.

On 9/16/2020 at 8:17 AM, Khobai said:

The body tax also varies depending on the unit.

Adding a comm officer to a unit of stormtroopers is a worse value than adding a comm officer to a unit of shoretroopers.

Because additional stormtroopers are only worth 11 points while additional shoretroopers are worth 13 points. So you actually gain 2 points just by adding a specialist to a shoretrooper unit instead of a stormtrooper unit.

It would be nice if the cost of specialists changed depending on which unit you added them to.

For example if the comm specialist was 8 points to add it to a stormtrooper unit, 9 points to add it to a snowtrooper unit, and 10 points to add it to a shoretrooper unit.

The same goes for the imperial officer. It should be 18 points to add it to a stormtrooper unit, 19 points to add it to a snowtrooper unit, and 20 points to add it to a shoretrooper unit.

And of course non-combatants like the medical droid and astromech should always cost the same regardless of which corps units you add them to.

I could get behind that, it complicates it a little bit more but they could just say that the comms tech costs the cost of the generic plus X, same with the others