59 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@T70 Driver With standardized soldiers the GAR probably also only had one size of uniform/armour as opposed to two: too small and too big.

Still being made by defense contractors, however, so even sticking to a particular standardized size, they'll likely produce it in those two sizes and not what actually fits. Star Wars' own version of Skillcraft strikes again.

On 9/13/2020 at 1:26 AM, Ilostmycactus said:

As for modern cannon I don't think commandos have been in any books have they? Maybe a gregor comic?

As far as I know we only have 2 cannon appearances of commandos. Gregor and then Delta squad is in the background of a clone wars episode for about 1 second. (I dont consider bad batch to be commandos bad batch are bad batch. But that's just my heavily biased opinion and nothing more speaking)

23 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I also expect the melee unit for GAR to be Wookiees either as part of a hard plastic re-release or as an extra card in a GAR specific rifle armed Wookiees

I feel like you could go with some kind of Riot Troopers like in the Ringo-Vinda episodes of Clone Wars. Rather than go for a standard "berserker" unit like the Rebel Wookiees I think it would be cool to make the Republic melee unit a bit more defensive. Then they could be used as a shield for a phalanx style push that might be interesting on the board.

Maybe Armor 1 and Immune: Pierce ? To counter that, I probably wouldn't give them a weapon beyond range 2 (probably range 1) and then maybe they could take a heavy personnel in the form of a staff trooper or something to help them when they go into melee.

I just would love to see a unit fill a niche that we haven't really seen yet, and I feel like a pure defense unit might be an interesting addition.

14 minutes ago, evo454 said:

I feel like you could go with some kind of Riot Troopers like in the Ringo-Vinda episodes of Clone Wars. Rather than go for a standard "berserker" unit like the Rebel Wookiees I think it would be cool to make the Republic melee unit a bit more defensive. Then they could be used as a shield for a phalanx style push that might be interesting on the board.

Maybe Armor 1 and Immune: Pierce ? To counter that, I probably wouldn't give them a weapon beyond range 2 (probably range 1) and then maybe they could take a heavy personnel in the form of a staff trooper or something to help them when they go into melee.

I just would love to see a unit fill a niche that we haven't really seen yet, and I feel like a pure defense unit might be an interesting addition.

the issue with a purely defensive unit is if there is no threat from that unit then the enemy just ignores it unless it is going to cap a point,

any high health trooper unit needs to have some kind of threat but it should be limited to range 2 and melee. look at wookiees, fleets, royal guards and B2's they all have range 2 and usually have a longer range heavy or a heavy that boosts their current attack or melee.

5 minutes ago, evo454 said:

I feel like you could go with some kind of Riot Troopers like in the Ringo-Vinda episodes of Clone Wars. Rather than go for a standard "berserker" unit like the Rebel Wookiees I think it would be cool to make the Republic melee unit a bit more defensive. Then they could be used as a shield for a phalanx style push that might be interesting on the board.

Maybe Armor 1 and Immune: Pierce ? To counter that, I probably wouldn't give them a weapon beyond range 2 (probably range 1) and then maybe they could take a heavy personnel in the form of a staff trooper or something to help them when they go into melee.

I just would love to see a unit fill a niche that we haven't really seen yet, and I feel like a pure defense unit might be an interesting addition.

The Riot Troopers are only shown in a police capacity though, with no ranged weapons at all. The inclusion of some pistol weapon is likely, much like with the Royal Guard. "Pure" defense units have a harder time contributing to the overall game is part of the issue. Your opponent can choose to ignore them, targeting other, easier to damage targets. Giving them Bodyguard could help, or some other keyword allowing them to provide Cover despite being a trooper unit.

FFG in general has shown a tendency for releasing movie units when possible, and I think Wookiees would sell better just because they are more recognizable.
It is also possible we end up with both units eventually, with the GAR Wookiees waiting for the hard plastic re-release of the kit.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The Riot Troopers are only shown in a police capacity though, with no ranged weapons at all. The inclusion of some pistol weapon is likely, much like with the Royal Guard. "Pure" defense units have a harder time contributing to the overall game is part of the issue. Your opponent can choose to ignore them, targeting other, easier to damage targets. Giving them Bodyguard could help, or some other keyword allowing them to provide Cover despite being a trooper unit.

FFG in general has shown a tendency for releasing movie units when possible, and I think Wookiees would sell better just because they are more recognizable.
It is also possible we end up with both units eventually, with the GAR Wookiees waiting for the hard plastic re-release of the kit.

Wookiees are more likely i think, I am looking forward to them, i could see the wookies having the equvilent of satchel charges as they use them in the battle of Kashyyyk (range 1, detonate 3 red, impact 1 surge crit)

On the topic of smashing dreams:

Why do we have spec ops in Legion? Spec Ops are behind the lines not on them. However since we already have spec op units, my agruement is ill founded

Also, realistically, CC s are walking tanks....

1 minute ago, 5particus said:

Wookiees are more likely i think, I am looking forward to them, i could see the wookies having the equvilent of satchel charges as they use them in the battle of Kashyyyk (range 1, detonate 3 red, impact 1 surge crit)

If the AT-RT is anything to go off of, the melee Wookies would be identical in upgrades if the unit name is the same. Now, they could restrict the heavy upgrade to GAR only, or include them in the potential ranged Wookiees so the Rebel players don't have to rebuy a unit they already own for an upgrade card.

2 minutes ago, ImperialYeet said:

On the topic of smashing dreams:

Why do we have spec ops in Legion? Spec Ops are behind the lines not on them. However since we already have spec op units, my agruement is ill founded

Also, realistically, CC s are walking tanks....

Nothing about Legion is specifically "front line," these games could be representing action occurring behind enemy lines as easily as a front line battle. Heck, we have units like Palpatine who arguably wouldn't be on the front line, but might be found behind the lines.

By what metric is a Clone Commando a "walking tank?" The video games? Again, game capabilities are designed to make the game interesting, not accurately represent the canon.

The books. The Mk.II armour could withstand a Verpine shattergun.

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If the AT-RT is anything to go off of, the melee Wookies would be identical in upgrades if the unit name is the same. Now, they could restrict the heavy upgrade to GAR only, or include them in the potential ranged Wookiees so the Rebel players don't have to rebuy a unit they already own for an upgrade card.

I can see them being a different unit, maybe clan chieftain guards or something

5 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Nothing about Legion is specifically "front line," these games could be representing action occurring behind enemy lines as easily as a front line battle. Heck, we have units like Palpatine who arguably wouldn't be on the front line, but might be found behind the lines.

By what metric is a Clone Commando a "walking tank?" The video games? Again, game capabilities are designed to make the game interesting, not accurately represent the canon.

i think the clone commandos would have red dice with surge on defense or red dice with 2 health each.

The whole front line argument is moot as the entire table is less than 90 meters if scaled up, less than a football field, the battles that we fight are at best skirmishes and would be over in minutes at best in the real world.

4 minutes ago, ImperialYeet said:

The books. The Mk.II armour could withstand a Verpine shattergun.

The books are not canon anymore though, so that may no longer be the case.

Regardless, game capabilities are to reflect a "balanced and enjoyable" experience, not the canon. Otherwise, Vader would be able to defeat an entire Legion army single handedly, as depicted in the Vader Down comics.

18 minutes ago, 5particus said:

I can see them being a different unit, maybe clan chieftain guards or something

i think the clone commandos would have red dice with surge on defense or red dice with 2 health each.

The whole front line argument is moot as the entire table is less than 90 meters if scaled up, less than a football field, the battles that we fight are at best skirmishes and would be over in minutes at best in the real world.

I could see GAR ending up with two separate Wookiee units, a re-release of the Wookiee Warriors and Wookiees armed with rifles.

Red dice with surge has (so far) been restricted to Mandalorians (representing Beskar armor) and Force users (either while using Deflect, or being powerful Sith lords), so I think two wounds would be more likely of your two proposed designs. Edit: and also Deathtroopers as I am reminded below.

I agree entirely as to the front line argument. There is nothing innately in Legion ties it to a particular type of battle.

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I could see GAR ending up with two separate Wookiee units, a re-release of the Wookiee Warriors and Wookiees armed with rifles.

Red dice with surge has (so far) been restricted to Mandalorians (representing Beskar armor) and Force users (either while using Deflect, or being powerful Sith lords), so I think two wounds would be more likely of your two proposed designs.

I agree entirely as to the front line argument. There is nothing innately in Legion ties it to a particular type of battle.

you forgot death troopers which i think are currently the closest to how clone commandos would come out, 2 types of wookies would be good but not if they were both special forces though, maybe one as a support in a vehicle or as a creature trooper or maybe another wookiee as an operative.

4 minutes ago, 5particus said:

you forgot death troopers which i think are currently the closest to how clone commandos would come out, 2 types of wookies would be good but not if they were both special forces though, maybe one as a support in a vehicle or as a creature trooper or maybe another wookiee as an operative.

Fair point, I had forgotten about Death Troopers fro some reason. It would be slightly odd for the ARCs to have Impervious while the Commandos do not, but I could see that if they are getting surge instead. Surge on Clone units in general is probably less likely than Reliable 1, since that works with the token sharing identity a bit better.

41 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Fair point, I had forgotten about Death Troopers fro some reason. It would be slightly odd for the ARCs to have Impervious while the Commandos do not, but I could see that if they are getting surge instead. Surge on Clone units in general is probably less likely than Reliable 1, since that works with the token sharing identity a bit better.

i could see reliable 2 on them if they dont get a surge

@5particus @Caimheul1313

I could see them going for Wookiees, but hey, a mans gotta dream!

I think Guardian would work well, or you could go with a special keyword for them (as suggested). I'd probably call it something like Obstructing (Treat this unit as blocking line of sight). This would make unit configuration more important, since you can arrange them in an unbroken line or you can run the risk of setting them a bit wider and letting the enemy fire through the gaps. Might also make Scatter a more useful ability since this would make breaking the line easier.

1 hour ago, evo454 said:

@5particus @Caimheul1313

I could see them going for Wookiees, but hey, a mans gotta dream!

I think Guardian would work well, or you could go with a special keyword for them (as suggested). I'd probably call it something like Obstructing (Treat this unit as blocking line of sight). This would make unit configuration more important, since you can arrange them in an unbroken line or you can run the risk of setting them a bit wider and letting the enemy fire through the gaps. Might also make Scatter a more useful ability since this would make breaking the line easier.

I mean, dreaming is kind of the entire point of this particular thread anyway.
I don't think blocking line of sight is quite the right design for it, since tanks don't block line of sight. I could see a keyword that causes the unit to either be treated as area terrain granting Light or Heavy cover, or just providing Cover x to friendly units within range 1. The terrain design is likely a bit harder to break since it would work either way.

7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The Riot Troopers are only shown in a police capacity though, with no ranged weapons at all. The inclusion of some pistol weapon is likely, much like with the Royal Guard. "Pure" defense units have a harder time contributing to the overall game is part of the issue. Your opponent can choose to ignore them, targeting other, easier to damage targets. Giving them Bodyguard could help, or some other keyword allowing them to provide Cover despite being a trooper unit.

FFG in general has shown a tendency for releasing movie units when possible, and I think Wookiees would sell better just because they are more recognizable.
It is also possible we end up with both units eventually, with the GAR Wookiees waiting for the hard plastic re-release of the kit.

Riot Troopers from Ringo Vinda are when Tup shoots the jedi. I don't think that's what they're named actually but w/e Edit: Ok so there are riot troopers on coruscant which is what you were thinking, still the shields have been used in combat. They don't have anything to do with policing, they just have shields that block blasters.

Tbh wookies make even less sense in GAR. They've never served as auxiliaries, only as militia when defending Kashyyyk. Really FFG just needs to release detachments of natives. They get to make the fun units like gungans, wookies, trandoshans, etc., and depending on the "good" or "evil" faction they can be taken accordingly.

Just now, Ilostmycactus said:

Riot Troopers from Ringo Vinda are when Tup shoots the jedi. I don't think that's what they're named actually but w/e. They don't have anything to do with policing, they just have shields that block blasters.

Tbh wookies make even less sense in GAR. They've never served as auxiliaries, only as militia when defending Kashyyyk. Really FFG just needs to release detachments of natives. They get to make the fun units like gungans, wookies, trandoshans, etc., and depending on the "good" or "evil" faction they can be taken accordingly.

The are only listed as being in two episodes: Duchess Of Mandalore, in which they assist the police in looking for Duchess Satine and working crowd control in Sabotage. No mention of them from the episode "The Unknown."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Clone_riot_trooper has the current canon for Clone Riot Troopers.

And Palpatine is never shown directly fighting with Rebel troopers. What matters more is what will sell and what is recognizable. Wookiees are more recognizable than the Riot troopers. A box of Wookiees is more likely to draw someone into the game than yet another Clone unit that only shows up in two episodes of the cartoon.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of cross faction units in the first place. It can make the various armies feel the same, especially since in Legion we don't have "army special rules" that you get innately by playing a specific faction. The Faction's "flavour" is only present in the units themselves (Clone token sharing, Droid coordinate, Rebel... nimble?, Empire... Suppressive? [the GCW factions don't quite have as strong of a flavour as the CW ones]). But there is some amount of sense in having the Wookiees be cross faction, same as when the Rebels started with the AT-RT.

Gungans on the other hand, do not join in the GCW, as they rarely leave Naboo. So while it would make sense to have them be part of the GAR, less so for Rebels. Similarly, we don't see a squad of Trandoshans working with the Empire, just Bossk.

7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The are only listed as being in two episodes: Duchess Of Mandalore, in which they assist the police in looking for Duchess Satine and working crowd control in Sabotage. No mention of them from the episode "The Unknown."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Clone_riot_trooper has the current canon for Clone Riot Troopers.

And Palpatine is never shown directly fighting with Rebel troopers. What matters more is what will sell and what is recognizable. Wookiees are more recognizable than the Riot troopers. A box of Wookiees is more likely to draw someone into the game than yet another Clone unit that only shows up in two episodes of the cartoon.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of cross faction units in the first place. It can make the various armies feel the same, especially since in Legion we don't have "army special rules" that you get innately by playing a specific faction. The Faction's "flavour" is only present in the units themselves (Clone token sharing, Droid coordinate, Rebel... nimble?, Empire... Suppressive? [the GCW factions don't quite have as strong of a flavour as the CW ones]). But there is some amount of sense in having the Wookiees be cross faction, same as when the Rebels started with the AT-RT.

Gungans on the other hand, do not join in the GCW, as they rarely leave Naboo. So while it would make sense to have them be part of the GAR, less so for Rebels. Similarly, we don't see a squad of Trandoshans working with the Empire, just Bossk.

You're not understanding. What evo454 called Riot troopers was referring to shielded clones in the Ringo Vinda episode. These clones would be defensive as he says and were an actual combat unit as opposed to the named Riot troopers. Actual riot troopers don't have anything to do with what he's talking about. Moving on.

Natives wouldn't represent some kind of auxiliary that went on campaigns, they would represent allies of opportunity via whatever lore reason the players decided on for their game. E.g. fighting on naboo? Take a gungan detachment to help you, for flavor (they fought grievous). Fighting on Kashyyyk? Take some wookies. Hire some hunters? Take some trandoshans. Invading Geonosis? Geonosians. Want to have a game on Endor? Bring some ewoks. Etc. Natives that are taken as detachments will make more game sense and have more utility than trying to make some kind of scum and villainy faction. It lets ffg make more fun units without people carting around whole armies of gungans or restricting the flavorful units to only weequay pirates. As long as detachments were limited in number and in faction alignment (good/evil), faction identity isn't in any danger. And it would make more thematic sense for 90% of units rather than including a minor native unit as an actual part of a faction roster, i.e. giving GAR a wookie unit.

Gungans are just as capable of being rebels as any other species. You can't bring up Palpatine's canon actions and waive them but then say just because some Trandoshans haven't had the opportunity to feature in a comic or book that they are disqualified.

The whole point of native/mercenary detachments is to give FFG and players the opportunity to make models of and take lesser known aliens and groups of the star wars universe without requiring the development of an entirely new faction which wouldn't be cohesive at all. Balance can be preserved by the proper restriction of keywords.

18 hours ago, 5particus said:

the issue with a purely defensive unit is if there is no threat from that unit then the enemy just ignores it unless it is going to cap a point,

any high health trooper unit needs to have some kind of threat but it should be limited to range 2 and melee. look at wookiees, fleets, royal guards and B2's they all have range 2 and usually have a longer range heavy or a heavy that boosts their current attack or melee.

Why should a high hp trooper unit only be limited to close range effectiveness?

Seems like an arbitrary constraint IMO.

...

Republic Commandos: 3-5 dudes.

Melee: Black+White
Ranged: range 3 Black+White
Speed: 2
Defence: Red.
No surges.
2 HP
2 Bravery

Infiltrate
Reliable 2

Commandos are a reliable infiltrating unit of badasses you send on near suicidal missions. I feel these stats would help reflect that. Haven't gone into their heavies yet. Would have to do more research.

My 2c.

1 hour ago, lologrelol said:

Why should a high hp trooper unit only be limited to close range effectiveness?

Seems like an arbitrary constraint IMO.

...

Republic Commandos: 3-5 dudes.

Melee: Black+White
Ranged: range 3 Black+White
Speed: 2
Defence: Red.
No surges.
2 HP
2 Bravery

Infiltrate
Reliable 2

Commandos are a reliable infiltrating unit of badasses you send on near suicidal missions. I feel these stats would help reflect that. Haven't gone into their heavies yet. Would have to do more research.

My 2c.

usually they are only short range because if they were long range then they can sit at range an kill anything that gets close before they can really kill off any of them, short range forces them to push in close giving the enemy an oportunity to actually engage them,

I think the best we can hope for is something close to Death Troopers with their high resistance to damage and config for less damage at long range or high damage at short range. maybe slightly less damage at long range but more health, otherwise they would have to be too expensive to really field them.

5 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Why should a high hp trooper unit only be limited to close range effectiveness?

Seems like an arbitrary constraint IMO.

...

Republic Commandos: 3-5 dudes.

Melee: Black+White
Ranged: range 3 Black+White
Speed: 2
Defence: Red.
No surges.
2 HP
2 Bravery

Infiltrate
Reliable 2

Commandos are a reliable infiltrating unit of badasses you send on near suicidal missions. I feel these stats would help reflect that. Haven't gone into their heavies yet. Would have to do more research.

My 2c.

Because that would actually be broken, that's why. You've just suggested a unit that averages the same or more amount of hits most infantry gets with a heavy, and that's before you throw in the it's own. Then doubled their HP which makes them the tankiest infantry unit in the game.

8 hours ago, Ilostmycactus said:

You're not understanding. What evo454 called Riot troopers was referring to shielded clones in the Ringo Vinda episode. These clones would be defensive as he says and were an actual combat unit as opposed to the named Riot troopers. Actual riot troopers don't have anything to do with what he's talking about. Moving on.

Okay, I see now my confusion. Having rewatched the episode (and double checked Wookieepedia for information on current canon) those aren't "shield clones" they are Phase 2 clones that are using the M3 Bulwark Blast Shield. The Riot troopers are more accurately "shield clones" as the shield was standard issue equipment. Phase 2s with Bulwark would more accurately be represented through a Phase 2 upgrade pack, for instance. But in that case, the Range would be the same since it is still the same blaster, and there is a Z-6 heavy in the unit.

8 hours ago, Ilostmycactus said:

Natives wouldn't represent some kind of auxiliary that went on campaigns, they would represent allies of opportunity via whatever lore reason the players decided on for their game. E.g. fighting on naboo? Take a gungan detachment to help you, for flavor (they fought grievous). Fighting on Kashyyyk? Take some wookies. Hire some hunters? Take some trandoshans. Invading Geonosis? Geonosians. Want to have a game on Endor? Bring some ewoks. Etc. Natives that are taken as detachments will make more game sense and have more utility than trying to make some kind of scum and villainy faction. It lets ffg make more fun units without people carting around whole armies of gungans or restricting the flavorful units to only weequay pirates. As long as detachments were limited in number and in faction alignment (good/evil), faction identity isn't in any danger. And it would make more thematic sense for 90% of units rather than including a minor native unit as an actual part of a faction roster, i.e. giving GAR a wookie unit.

Gungans are just as capable of being rebels as any other species. You can't bring up Palpatine's canon actions and waive them but then say just because some Trandoshans haven't had the opportunity to feature in a comic or book that they are disqualified.

The whole point of native/mercenary detachments is to give FFG and players the opportunity to make models of and take lesser known aliens and groups of the star wars universe without requiring the development of an entirely new faction which wouldn't be cohesive at all. Balance can be preserved by the proper restriction of keywords.

Except Legion doesn't deal with "where are you fighting?" Part of the game setup isn't "pick a planet for your battle to occur on, based on this planet, you may take up to X of these units as part of your army." If players want to add that, feel free sounds like an interesting addition.

I didn't "waive" Palpatine's canon actions, I used it as an example of why Legion doesn't have to represent a front line. Unlike units of Trandoshans though, Palpatine is by canon part of the Empire. Everything FFG releases is first approved by Disney. Adding a named character to a faction he literally runs is going to be much more likely to be approved than adding an entire unit of a non-human race to the same faction "because it would be neat."

Any species that does not dramatically differ from Star Wars humans (such as Rodians, Twi'leks, etc) can be represented in a Rebel army by just converting any "human" Rebel unit. Gungans joining up singly would be provided with the same weapon and armour as any other Rebel in their cell. Probably the same goes for individual Wookiees who would sign up. There is at least one canon Trandoshan serving in the New Republic starfighter in the Star Wars: Squadron game. Until the game is released, we do not have any more details about this character, but it is likely they were serving in the Rebellion prior to the Battle of Endor. So why would all Trandoshans only work with the Empire, a government that represses non-humans and humans not from the core?

While Legion can be played as a lore game, that is not the core design. The core design is as a competitive wargame, not a storytelling one.
I have experience with storytelling wargames, they tend to have a very different design, and are not at all concerned with rebalancing points (quite a few don't even HAVE a points system).

8 hours ago, Ilostmycactus said:

Natives wouldn't represent some kind of auxiliary that went on campaigns, they would represent allies of opportunity via whatever lore reason the players decided on for their game. E.g. fighting on naboo? Take a gungan detachment to help you, for flavor (they fought grievous).

The Republic also brought Gungans to Mon Calamari to help them fight the separatists there, so they at least aren't purely an ally of opportunity.