Hi guys, i have been trying a build with both of these units , but i feel they are too overpriced !

The T-47 have little to no good position in most of the games , you may have it for aroud the first two rounds, after that the compulsory move will trow you righ in the middle of the enemy team and... he is gone!

This is a downside too big for a unit so expensive ... I feel that it should cost 90 points and come with harpoon costing 0 ( i have never seen anybody use it and when i used it all i did was attack 1 unit and for pure luck kill 1 guy , yhea , never had the chance to hit a veichle , they all have impact to kill you , so... good luck trying that)

On the other hand we have the heavy unit of the rebel vets , they cost 31 points for the same attack effect of a z-6 , but wait , that is not all .... the imperial version have almost the same weapon , but with the upgrade of 2 black dices and 2 white and .... have range 4 .... they should cost way more right ? but no , it is only 32 points....

(vet´ s heavy should cost around 22 points in my opinion ... maybe 24 at max)

What you guys expect to change of points for this 2 units ? Expect any keyword?

what i used last time trying both (no harpoon , even for 3 points it is too expensive for what it does ) :

Piratagem
800/800 (10 activations)
Commanders:
- Han Solo (120): Environmental Gear (3) = 123
Operative:
- Chewbacca (95): Situational Awareness (2) = 97
Corps:
- Rebel Veterans (48): CM-O/93 Trooper (26), Medical Droid (18) = 92
- Rebel Veterans (48): Comms Technician (9), HQ Uplink (10) = 67
- 2× Medium Blaster Trooper (38) = 76
Special Forces:
- 2× Commando Strike Team (20): DH-447 Sniper (28) = 96
- Rebel Pathfinders (68): Bistan (32), Duck and Cover (4), A-300 Config (0) = 104
Heavy:
- Airspeeder (140): Long-Range Comlink (5) = 145

• Sorry About the Mess, • Ambush, •• Push, •• Reckless Diversion, ••• Change of Plans, ••• Notorious Scoundrels, •••• Standing Orders

Also , the at-st and Bosk command cards are so counter to the t-47 that is a lost unit if you find them .

They've already discounted the Vets and the Airspeeder.

Airspeeder has 3B3R base for its gun. 90 pts? That's nearly half of its original cost, that's not going to happen.

The Vet's weapon is only range 3 but that's what the rebels get. It's a design choice. If everything was Range 4, no-one would ever take a move action in this game. Why did they give so many to the Imperials and Clones? Training or superior weaponry as a theme. They are more of the gunline, where the Rebels are supposed to sneak in and attack. Pao is much cheaper and more reliable as a long range threat. He also sticks around because of the Leader ability. If you play against a lot of vehicles, I could see taking Bistan with HQ Uplink, otherwise, the Recover, the Aim, requires too many actions to be efficient.

Lowering the points cost on the Airspeeder won't fix whats wrong with it. Because its not a cost problem.

The Airspeeder has two major problems:

1) it has to fire its weapons in separate attack pools which makes both its weapons ineffective against units in cover.

2) the airspeeder is forced to kamikaze into the enemy army but lacks the survivability to do so.

What the airspeeder needs is surge to crit to help it penetrate cover better. And it needs to get a free dodge token each turn and outmaneuver to help it stay alive longer.

The airspeeders rear weapons should also be free. The harpoon should be significantly buffed to be on par with the groundbuzzer (give the harpoon another red die, pierce 1, and immobilize X). And give the groundbuzzer suppressive. That way the harpoon is better vs vehicles and the groundbuzzer is better vs infantry but both are free.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

They've already discounted the Vets and the Airspeeder.

Airspeeder has 3B3R base for its gun. 90 pts? That's nearly half of its original cost, that's not going to happen.

The Vet's weapon is only range 3 but that's what the rebels get. It's a design choice. If everything was Range 4, no-one would ever take a move action in this game. Why did they give so many to the Imperials and Clones? Training or superior weaponry as a theme. They are more of the gunline, where the Rebels are supposed to sneak in and attack. Pao is much cheaper and more reliable as a long range threat. He also sticks around because of the Leader ability. If you play against a lot of vehicles, I could see taking Bistan with HQ Uplink, otherwise, the Recover, the Aim, requires too many actions to be efficient.

I see your point on the t-47 , but i was thinking on 90 points because the tauntauns can survive way more and have this cost ,also , the at-rts with gun are around 70 pts and have only 1 less health point and are more easy to move around without heaving line of sight from every enemy troop ( survive way more and loses 1 die , but , anyway , they see 10x more gameplay , also for objective the t-47 is good only for bombing run).

The rebel heavy , i don't mind not having range 4 , i woud prefer having the gun with a nice cost instead , like i said around 22-24 pts would fit the rebel play style and be a option like the z-6.

About the build , i simply use bistain because i have met a few builds with armor ... so they have some good chances against them , Pao is good, but my Bistain shined in a few battles against armored veichles XD.

My last version of this build i changed 1 Medium Blaster for normal troopers with z-6 ... they are a better combo with the fire support and the vets heavy gun are too expensive right now ...

I feel the same way , cost would help a lot, but the ideia behind it is broken , cover 1 and arsenal 2 on this veichle have almost no use most of the time...

8 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Lowering the points cost on the Airspeeder won't fix whats wrong with it.

The Airspeeder has two major problems:

1) it has to fire its weapons in separate attack pools which makes both its weapons ineffective against units in cover.

2) the airspeeder is forced to kamikaze into the enemy army but lacks the survivability to do so.

What the airspeeder needs is surge to crit to help it penetrate cover better. And it needs to get a free dodge token each turn and outmaneuver to help it stay alive longer.

The airspeeders rear weapons should also be free. The harpoon should be significantly buffed to be on par with the groundbuzzer (give it another red die and pierce 1). And the groundbuzzer should get suppressive.

Again... lowering the cost wouldnt help. Even with a reasonable points drop it would still be a flying dumpster fire that has to kamikaze itself into the enemy army. It fixes nothing.

The airspeeder is better off staying moderately expensive and actually being somewhat good rather than being cheaper and still bad. Its better to fix its problems than to ignore them and make it cost less.

And yeah cover 1 is pretty useless, it only gets it because its a speeder, and all speeders get cover 1.

But all speeders (airspeeder, landspeeder, and speeder bikes) should get a free dodge token every turn and outmaneuver. they can keep cover 1 too because it doesnt hurt having it but cover 1 alone isnt enough.

18 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Lowering the points cost on the Airspeeder won't fix whats wrong with it. Because its not a cost problem.

The Airspeeder has two major problems:

1) it has to fire its weapons in separate attack pools which makes both its weapons ineffective against units in cover.

2) the airspeeder is forced to kamikaze into the enemy army but lacks the survivability to do so.

What the airspeeder needs is surge to crit to help it penetrate cover better. And it needs to get a free dodge token each turn and outmaneuver to help it stay alive longer.

The airspeeders rear weapons should also be free. The harpoon should be significantly buffed to be on par with the groundbuzzer (give the harpoon another red die, pierce 1, and immobilize X). And give the groundbuzzer suppressive. That way the harpoon is better vs vehicles and the groundbuzzer is better vs infantry but both are free.

Critical 2 would help the T47.

The Landspeeder is in a similar boat if you ask me. It's great to have Arsenal, but all those weapons don't have a similar pattern as far as what they would be shooting at or for their range. It doesn't last half the attacks that the Airspeeder would. I think it's silly, but both of these vehicles would prefer to stay on the outskirts of the battle but have a hard time doing so with the speeder rule.

The only things I can see that would help fix the T-47 would be some version of sharpshooter on it, and giving it Barrage. These things would turn it from a glass cannon kamikaze fighter that does nothing into a glass cannon kamikaze fighter that rips a hole in your opponents army. Would make it worth the points. If it had something the equivalent of sharpshooter 2 it could actually land some hits and Barrage would solve the problem of having to attack out of the front and back to utilize arsenal 2. Would easily delete a unit off the board every turn with this and I think that'd make it worth while to get

Or another point reduction of 130 points...I'd pay ten points for it that seems like a fair price as it is rn

As for the vets heavy weapon they have 4 white dice that surge to hit and provide critical 2, so on average they get 1.5 damage however approx 2/3 of those hits are criticals so average 1 crit damage 0.5 normal damage

26 pts

compare with rebel troopers who have 6 white dice and an average of 1.5 hits but only 0.75 of those hits are crits

The ceiling is different with a max 4 dmg on the vets and 6 on the troopers, however their consistency is much better where their dice will be more likely to hit that average at the cost of the lower ceiling. So they hit more consistent and they consistently hit more criticals.

This being said if you dont roll any surges on your white dice any critical X you didnt use can be converted to criticals for your black dice also, which further increases your dmg past dodge/armor than the rebel trooper unit.

compare against the DLT20a which has an average of 1.625 hits with approx 1 being a crit. This is 26 points has a lower ceiling again and with only critical 1 which gives less benefit to the rest of the dice pool.

So its actually better to compare the rebel veterans with the cmo93 against the rebel trooper with the z6 , the vets have a training slot and the troopers have a single figure that can hit to range 4. The vets do more damage past dodge / armor /guardian and have training and a higher ceiling. The dlt20a does .125 more dmg on average not counting dodge etc.

I dont think that the weapon is overpriced at the moment. The unit may be a couple of points out but i dont think that its too bad just now

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

Again... lowering the cost wouldnt help. Even with a reasonable points drop it would still be a flying dumpster fire that has to kamikaze itself into the enemy army. It fixes nothing.

The airspeeder is better off staying moderately expensive and actually being somewhat good rather than being cheaper and still bad. Its better to fix its problems than to ignore them and make it cost less.

And yeah cover 1 is pretty useless, it only gets it because its a speeder, and all speeders get cover 1.

But all speeders (airspeeder, landspeeder, and speeder bikes) should get a free dodge token every turn and outmaneuver. they can keep cover 1 too because it doesnt hurt having it but cover 1 alone isnt enough.

Yhea , i do think that this is the best option right now (free dodge in the begining and outmanouver) , arsenal 2 would start making sense with it because you would survive enough to use both weapons ....

On the other hand, i found the t-47 nice with the medium blaster trooper (using fire support), you get 10 dices with crit and the speeder is pretty good on taking enemies without any cover , with this you will kill a full unit easily.

The reason the T-47 feels good with the medium blaster is because it gives it the attack pool it always shouldve had in the first place. Its common for other heavies to throw out 8-10 dice attack pools (often with surge to hit). But the airspeeder only has a 6 dice attack pool in its front arc and doesnt offensively surge.

Essentially youre paying extra points for the medium blaster to get what the T-47 shouldve had naturally.

Thats why the airspeeder needs surge to crit or at the very least get critical 2. But surge to crit would be better since it would help both its front and rear weapons. The ground buzzer wouldnt be as bad if it could surge to crit and had suppressive. The harpoon is harder to fix but giving it surge to crit, an extra red die, pierce 1, and immobilize would make it a lot better than it was at least. And both of the rear weapons should be free as well.

And the advantage of giving ALL speeders a free dodge token and outmaneuver is that they only have to change the universal rules for speeders. And it would give every single speeder in the game a much needed defensive bump.

5 hours ago, bllaw said:

The only things I can see that would help fix the T-47 would be some version of sharpshooter on it, and giving it Barrage.

Its definitely not getting barrage ever. That would be way too good with 3 black and 3 red dice. Unless it was a new pilot with an one use ability that gave it barrage for one turn that would be fine.

Theres nothing wrong with Arsenal 2 anyway. The problem is the weapons themselves not the arsenal 2. Both the front and rear weapons need to be good enough to stand on their own. The problem is its firing two separate crappy attack pools. When it should be firing two separate good attack pools. Both the front and rear weapons need a buff which is why giving it surge to crit and buffing the rear weapons would help fix it. Making the rear weapons free makes it not a downside to take the rear weapon too.

Yhea , changing the speeder veichles rules is the most clean way of doing it ( i dont 't see them changing a lot of info that is printed on cards for gameplay reasons), surge on attack is kind hard of having , maybe only adding critical 1 or 2 on the ship and this is it , would help both weapons and solve most of the problems.

20 hours ago, Khobai said:

The reason the T-47 feels good with the medium blaster is because it gives it the attack pool it always shouldve had in the first place. Its common for other heavies to throw out 8-10 dice attack pools (often with surge to hit). But the airspeeder only has a 6 dice attack pool in its front arc and doesnt offensively surge.

Essentially youre paying extra points for the medium blaster to get what the T-47 shouldve had naturally.

Thats why the airspeeder needs surge to crit or at the very least get critical 2. But surge to crit would be better since it would help both its front and rear weapons. The ground buzzer wouldnt be as bad if it could surge to crit and had suppressive. The harpoon is harder to fix but giving it surge to crit, an extra red die, pierce 1, and immobilize would make it a lot better than it was at least. And both of the rear weapons should be free as well.

And the advantage of giving ALL speeders a free dodge token and outmaneuver is that they only have to change the universal rules for speeders. And it would give every single speeder in the game a much needed defensive bump.

Its definitely not getting barrage ever. That would be way too good with 3 black and 3 red dice. Unless it was a new pilot with an one use ability that gave it barrage for one turn that would be fine.

Theres nothing wrong with Arsenal 2 anyway. The problem is the weapons themselves not the arsenal 2. Both the front and rear weapons need to be good enough to stand on their own. The problem is its firing two separate crappy attack pools. When it should be firing two separate good attack pools. Both the front and rear weapons need a buff which is why giving it surge to crit and buffing the rear weapons would help fix it. Making the rear weapons free makes it not a downside to take the rear weapon too.

21 hours ago, Khobai said:

And the advantage of giving ALL speeders a free dodge token and outmaneuver is that they only have to change the universal rules for speeders. And it would give every single speeder in the game a much needed defensive bump.

Maybe they could gain free dodges equal to their Speeder X value after they do a compulsory move. That'd make the T-47 way more survivable

They should get rid of compulsory move being compulsory and make compulsory move optional instead.

If you choose to take the compulsory move you get a free dodge token. If you choose not to take the compulsory move you dont get the free dodge token.

Compulsory move is a bad rule that makes no sense because speeders can absolutely slow down and/or hover in place. Getting rid of compulsory move also helps fix the kamikaze nature of the airspeeder.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

Compulsory move is a bad rule that makes no sense because speeders can absolutely slow down and/or hover in place. Getting rid of compulsory move also helps fix the kamikaze nature of the airspeeder.

Nah, not in the time in which a game of Legion takes place. Given how small the battlefield is, it's probably only a few minutes. When the battle starts they are basically already up to speed. They can't stop and start on a dime (at least not without killing the pilots), so compulsory move fits. The "kamikaze" issue is a player problem, not a unit problem. The Airspeeder isn't super good even when played well. It's even worse when you just go screaming straight in at the enemy.

That argument doesnt make any sense. Because I can make a compulsory move and double move actions with my airspeeder one turn then next turn im slowed back down to one compulsory move. Youre saying that accelerating from speed 3 to speed 9 then back to speed 3 is fine but going from speed 3 to speed 0 doesnt make sense? That argument isnt very compelling. Of course speeders can stop. They can even hover in place. They are repulsorlift vehicles. Thats why compulsory move is dumb.

Compulsory move is a bad rule. It doesnt make sense and it actually detracts from units like the airspeeder by forcing you to kamikaze them.

And youre absolutely wrong about the kamikaze issue being a player problem and not a unit problem. Because the airspeeders guns are fixed in its front arc. If you want to shoot an enemy unit you have to be facing an enemy unit when your compulsory move ends. It doesnt matter how good of a player you are if you want the airspeeder to attack it has to end its compulsory move facing the enemy. There is no way around that irregardless of whether youre a new player or a competitive pro player.

Compulsory move should be optional rather than compulsory. And as a reward for doing it you should get a free dodge token (and all speeders should inherently have outmaneuver)

In this case the carrot approach is better than the stick approach. rewarding players for doing something they dont want to is better than forcing them to do it.

5 minutes ago, Khobai said:

That argument doesnt really make sense though. Because I can make a triple movement with my airspeeder one turn. Then next turn im slowed back down to one compulsory move. Youre saying that accelerating from speed 3 to speed 9 then decelerating back to speed 3 is fine but going from speed 3 to speed 0 isnt doesnt make sense? That argument isnt a very good one.

Compulsory move is a bad rule. It neither makes sense and it actually detracts from units like the airspeeder by forcing you to kamikaze them.

And youre absolutely wrong about the kamikaze issue being a player problem. Because the airspeeders guns are fixed in its front arc. If you want to shoot an enemy unit you have to be facing an enemy unit when your compulsory move ends. That makes it a unit problem.

It would be ridiculous for them to get rid of compulsory move altogether. They're speeders, they gotta be moving thats how they work they cant just stop immediately in mid air very well. And slowing from speed 9 to 3 is a lot different from going from speed 3 to a full on slam on the brakes stop. And no you absolutely do not have to kamikaze the airspeeder. That's just how people tend to use them and then give up on them saying they're useless. If you can pilot them well, you dont have to kamikaze at all and they can actually be not terrible. A simple last-first activation with the airspeeder can get two powerful attacks in without having to kamikaze yourself into the enemy forces.

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It would be ridiculous for them to get rid of compulsory move altogether. They're speeders, they gotta be moving thats how they work

speeders definitely do not need to be moving in order to work. they are not airplanes or sharks. there is no requirement for them to always be moving forward to stay flying or stay alive.

they just shouldnt get a defensive bonus if they arnt moving full speed. which is why compulsory move should be entirely optional instead and speeders should get a free dodge token if they perform the optional free move. But if they dont perform the optional free move they shouldnt get a free dodge token.

That rewards you for performing the extra move but doesnt force you to to it every turn. It is a much better way of handling speeders.

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And slowing from speed 9 to 3 is a lot different from going from speed 3 to a full on slam on the brakes stop.

its the same exactly thing. whether you decelerate from 9 to 3 or 3 to 0. its not an airplane its not going to stall. its a repulsorlift vehicle. it will simply hover in place.

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If you can pilot them well, you dont have to kamikaze at all

how? its weapons are fixed in its front arc. the only way you can attack with it is if its facing the enemy after its compulsory move.

unless you alone have discovered a secret way of firing the airspeeders front guns without it facing the enemy. In which case I implore you to enlighten us as to how youve managed to do what none of the rest of us are able to.

because every time ive used the airspeeder or seen someone else use it they have to fly directly at the enemy so its front guns can attack. that doesnt mean the path you have to take has to be a stupid one, you usually fly up the board edge on a flank to minimize how many guns can shoot back at you, but if the airspeeder wants to attack it has to always be flying towards an enemy unit. And more often than not that gets the airspeeder inevitably killed.

The airspeeder should absolutely be able to hover in place. Forcing it to move forward every turn makes no sense. Even moreso when all it gets for is a measly cover 1 and an inevitable deathsentence from being forced to kamikaze itself closer to the enemy each turn.

12 minutes ago, Khobai said:

how? its weapons are fixed in its front arc. the only way you can attack with it is if its facing the enemy after its compulsory move.

You don't just blitz up the middle of the field towards the bulk of your opponent's army. Try to engage as few units as possible, preferably from a flank. Use taller terrain to limit what can shoot at it, like usual. There are tons of ways. If you can't think of any of that: once again, it's a player problem.

Also, by your definition, every single unit in the game is a "kamikaze" unit. Yes, you have to get into range to shoot at them, and they might even shoot back!

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Also, by your definition, every single unit in the game is a "kamikaze" unit. Yes, you have to get into range to shoot at them, and they might even shoot back!

what are you talking about?

trooper units often dont move. its preferable for them to aim and attack whenever possible.

so no every unit fits the definition of a kamikaze unit. because not every unit is forced to move speed 3 towards the enemy each turn.

and no unit should ever be forced to compulsory move. because compulsory move is absolutely stupid. it should be a completely optional extra move that speeders can choose to take or choose not to take and they either get a free dodge token from doing it or they dont. That is a far more elegant approach than forcing people to move their units each turn for no benefit.

And its far better than the idiocy of having to drive your speeder bikes around in tight circles in area terrain. And far better than having to kamikaze airspeeders into the enemy. Compulsory move is an absolute garbage rule. It adds nothing beneficial to the game whatsoever and mostly just detracts from the effectiveness of speeder units by forcing them to do stupid things.

This is exactly why people take trooper units over speeders. Because of crappy rules like that. And the equally crappy rules that dont let speeder bikes score on more objectives. A guy on a speeder bike can conceivably stop, get off his bike, and grab an objective. Just like in the mandalorian when those speeder bike scouts grabbed baby yoda, they got the objective.

Legion has entirely missed the point of speeder bikes. The whole point of speeder bikes is to transport scout troopers from point A to point B quickly. The point of speederbikes is not to fly around at max speed in endless circles all game praying that your awful attack pool actually kills something before you get murdered by anything that shoots you. All while being pathetically unable to capture objectives.

On 9/10/2020 at 12:41 AM, Khobai said:

Again... lowering the cost wouldnt help. Even with a reasonable points drop it would still be a flying dumpster fire that has to kamikaze itself into the enemy army. It fixes nothing.

The airspeeder is better off staying moderately expensive and actually being somewhat good rather than being cheaper and still bad. Its better to fix its problems than to ignore them and make it cost less.

And yeah cover 1 is pretty useless, it only gets it because its a speeder, and all speeders get cover 1.

But all speeders (airspeeder, landspeeder, and speeder bikes) should get a free dodge token every turn and outmaneuver. they can keep cover 1 too because it doesnt hurt having it but cover 1 alone isnt enough.

I disagree, a drastic points cost does make it more effective. It alows players the ability to take it and have more points for other units to support it.

18 hours ago, Khobai said:

speeders definitely do not need to be moving in order to work. they are not airplanes or sharks. there is no requirement for them to always be moving forward to stay flying or stay alive.

I mean it's how they work in the game. The entire battle of a legion games takes a matter of minutes so for a speeder to stop doesnt make much sense to me

18 hours ago, Khobai said:

unless you alone have discovered a secret way of firing the airspeeders front guns without it facing the enemy. In which case I implore you to enlighten us as to how youve managed to do what none of the rest of us are able to.

Geez troll much?

As i think someone else already pointed out the airspeeder works best as a flanking unit. It can hone in on important units for objectives such as a unit with a box or a hostage unit. Dont even get me started on it for bombing run...It's meant to get places quick, take out straggler units away from the main enemy force, and take some heavy fire away from your other forces before going down

18 hours ago, Khobai said:

Compulsory move is an absolute garbage rule. It adds nothing beneficial to the game whatsoever and mostly just detracts from the effectiveness of speeder units by forcing them to do stupid things.

This is exactly why people take trooper units over speeders. Because of crappy rules like that. And the equally crappy rules that dont let speeder bikes score on more objectives. A guy on a speeder bike can conceivably stop, get off his bike, and grab an objective. Just like in the mandalorian when those speeder bike scouts grabbed baby yoda, they got the objective.

People take troopers over vehicles because as the game is rn, vehicles in general kind of suck. FFG is making ways to make them better with recent objectives and deployment cards and maybe eventually they'll be viable units. But for now it's got nothing to do with the fact that compulsory move is a bad mechanic its entirely due to the fact that they can't score objectives. And yes, speeder bikes should be able to score objectives but I'd say theyre the sole vehicle that should be able to do say, MAYBE also the AT-RT. So FFG didn't want to make an exception like that at the very start of the game with a unit

if you allow speeder bikes to capture objectives then compulsory move becomes hard to explain.

because if the speeder cant stop how is it capturing objectives?

so I kindve consider the two things linked. in order for speeder bikes capturing objectives to make sense compulsory move has to be removed. thats why making the compulsory move optional makes more sense so you can change speeder bikes so they can capture objectives.

I also think all the smaller vehicles should be able to capture objectives not just speeder bikes. So units like droidekas (when not in wheel mode), speederbikes, AT-RTs, etc... they should all be able to capture objectives. I dont see any real problem with allowing that.

Only the larger vehicles shouldnt be able to capture objectives. Because its pretty hard for a guy to get out of an airspeeder or AT-ST and capture an objective.