Hmm, well, I guess this will exist in about a month. These are all of Poe's final positions (I believe, I might have missed something) off of revealing and performing a 1 straight with the following loadout...

Poe Dameron (67)
Daredevil (2)
BB-8 (8)
Primed Thrusters (10)
Overdrive Thruster (???)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)

Ship total: 89 + ???

What is everyone's thoughts on this? (to good, will it be good, to expensive, resources are to limited, ect) Also, with seeing this, how much should Overdrive Thruster cost?

About half of my squad dedicated to Poe, a pilot with no Passive modifiers limited to BB charges.

If this ever becomes a thing Sloane is gonna be Poe's Boogeyman...woman? I love Poe but that many points feels like a trap when I got A-Wings and efficient ships like Bastian, Jess, Cova+Leia, Kaz, and possibly Rey.

I admit its a nice trick but limited.

Personal guess for the Thruster is 4. There are both benefits and limitations. It is also unique so only one per squad.

I don't know what you're talking about. Decloaking on command at i6 is fine .

We totally didn't already break one version of this game that way.

At least it won't have... Many... Mods? Or something?

That's still pretty spooky, who am I kidding lol 😐

Too expensive and with several limitations.

It's a funny upgrade but although I love Poe, I don't think this will be enough for put him on the table and be sure that I am not sinking lot of points.

There are several pilots who can spend a million points and create similar fractal patterns. But mostly, they're more horrible, risky fun for one at casual level than actually super good.

So he might be ok. If he's a million points, rather than ten thousand.

But Rey seems like she's on the way back, maybe Rey/Poe might be a thing. So that could be awkward.

Still, I find that these flowering possibilities coalesce down to shoot and be shot, or do nonsense and run away. Most of the options are just decorative.

As always it looks flashy but without passive mods Poe ends up getting burnt down quickly like most T-70's.

If they planned an upgrade that had his old v1 ability in it then we might talking but at the moment that's to much points investment.

Poe with Overdrive thrusters and R4 alone will probably be good.

However Nien with PA and OT could also be better for less points.

It'll be too expensive. He can move well, but often won't have dice mods, and he only has 2 green dice so he's kinda vulnerable to chip damage.

In other words, the same basic problem a Super-Poe has now. Overdrive Thrusters will help him move better, but he'll also cost more, and it'll probably come out in the wash.

Like, does this dude beat Nantex? Naw.

8 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I don't know what you're talking about. Decloaking on command at i6 is fine .

We totally didn't already break one version of this game that way.

He'll need to at least lake an action to use the ability, and with the swarm that are out there, it seems unlikely that he'll get to use his trick super often once he gets into the scrum. Perhaps, BB-8 will help that, but at 2 charges, he'll run out of tricks quickly. He'll be someone to watch against other aces though.

I agree with all the sentiment above. I've tried running a 90+ points Poe with all the toys, and you just don't get the value out of the points. Sure, this will be annoying, but tricked-out Poe builds get too expensive, too fast on this chassis for them to become oppressive/meta.

I played super BB Primed Poe day 1 of Resistance launch...and many times after.

He was - decent - with 9pt Proton Torps, 6 or 8 pt Primed, 6 point BB8 and undercosted Lulo for the nice bid.

He's struggled ever since that first points update with initiative scaled Primed, BB8 and 12+ Prototorps.

.... I wouldn't say this new upgrade or even his new Commander ability is enough to make me seriously fly Poe again.

13 points proton torpedoes but a bit of a hurt on all the X-wings. I liked four red squadron vets with proton torpedoes better than five blue squadron escorts.

19 hours ago, NoobMaster70 said:

Hmm, well, I guess this will exist in about a month. These are all of Poe's final positions (I believe, I might have missed something) off of revealing and performing a 1 straight with the following loadout...

Poe Dameron (67)
Daredevil (2)
BB-8 (8)
Primed Thrusters (10)
Overdrive Thruster (???)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)

Ship total: 89 + ???

What is everyone's thoughts on this? (to good, will it be good, to expensive, resources are to limited, ect) Also, with seeing this, how much should Overdrive Thruster cost?

I’ll let everyone know if it’s real.

Its this but better (or worse, depending on which side of the table you are on...)

Wedge is 55pts in wave 7.

I5 InfiniteForce Luke is only 7pts more at 62.

______

Poe, for:

--+1 shield

--The alternative config (I call that one a wash at best...the t65 config gives that amazing linked focus-boost)

--and an ability that self-stresses and helps Scum Falcon and several other pilots kill him faster if he uses it...and one that also gets massively shut down by Sloane (who isn't going away) and upcoming Pyre crew, etc.

......

I'd fly Poe if he were.....62 points... Maybe. But it'd probably be the exact same situation we are in... R4+Heroic.

I literally can't imagine a scenario where fat Poe is meta viable for me even if he has Leia Crew backing him up.

He just.

Doesn't.

Contribute.

Thanks for listening to my TedTalk.

One of the things that really stuck with me that a teacher said to me is 'things are allowed to be good.' Poe having a very limited window to do a supermove (and, if played well, a persistent threat of the super-move) is interesting in a way a lot of other hyper-reposition stuff isn't.

You want stuff with wowy zowy powers and abilities, the trick is to not make people feel too shut down by someone else's wowy zowy, you want most lists to be able to beat most other lists when played well. Poe tests a lot of your opponent's skill and your own ability to make the charge threatening and affect the game while its on your card, which is part of why Poe is 'too fair' and thus bad in a game where a lot of aces just have overwhelming power on your side. This makes him a poor candidate to just cram upgrades on, though.

At this price point, you gotta ask yourself is this really better than Super-Boba, and the answer becomes really clear really fast it probably isn't.

@dezzmont

That is by far the clearest and most concise summation of everything intriguing, amazing, exciting, and frustratingly bad about 2e Poe I've ever read.

Spot on.

I really wish it were otherwise, but yes, as soon as you look at Boba or basically any other faction's ace in a similar price point (80-100+ points), it becomes really clear - really fast - why he's not competitive.

What would it take to change this?

Probably a LOT more than Overdrive Thrusters.

He'd need a KILLER squad behind him to make that list viable. As far as I'm aware ... Even Thicc Rey would have a hard time carrying that weight in the current high ship count metas.

10 hours ago, Bucknife said:

What would it take to change this?

I think the key cause of this problem is that aces currently aren't 'specifically unfair' with an extreme upside that makes them overwhelming in one area, and which requires you to play around, but 'generically unfair' in that they are kinda just good at everything. Boba can out-brawl an inefficient beef list for crying out loud!

One thing that really highlights a big problem with ace design in my mind is that aces tend to get around 5 actions worth of effects (Ex: Vader can Afterburners, use their ability, take a focus, link a roll, and hold a 'calculate'), and cost under twice as much as characters who's sole purpose is to grant extra actions to your list, which is why stuff that isn't either an ace, a generic, or something that supports generics like Sloane, are struggling. Why run Garven at 45 points to add 1.25 actions to your list, when Vader at 75 adds 5 on a good turn?

The difference in character abilities and their impact between a mega-ace and a non-mega ace are just... extremely high.

Fixing this either requires a dramatic price change to mega aces (so you can only run 1 plus 2 regular aces, or 2 mega aces, or are forced to mix them with non-aces), dramatic price changes to non-mega aces. For example, rebel 5X didn't budge the needle at all and the faction is still totally dead in the water, so maybe reducing the prices even more so that you can shove some named X-wings in would help. This would allow the T-70 to come down as well, meaning that Poe is now capable of running with 3 generic T-70s, or with kitted out named pilots, or with a named T-70 and some named A-wings. A big thing to help make the named mega-aces less oppressive is to just say 'if you don't run all mega aces your getting 2 mid tier ships on them, rather than 1.'

I do think regardless of what happens, Boba is a greater scope problem than just Poe. Poe being 'kinda meh compared to Boba' is more of a veteran player problem, because Poe does just fine vs other casual pieces. Boba is a problem because he crushes the fun of X-wing and is a 'casual Tyrant.' A single ship and pilot existing shouldn't gatekeep lists so hard nor have such extreme results against shakey players. Playing against Imp Aces as a new player still likely results in a loss, but you probably got to have a dramatic and fun turn blowing up a ship (Maybe you got Vader, even! Huzzah!) and its sorta 'obvious' why your getting beat and how you can win vs that list, even if your not able to do it. Flying well vs Boba is not really intuitive, and when your doing well it doesn't feel good or fun. I think the fact you need to strongly consider not flying a single ship regardless of list at a casual night because it may make someone who is learning the game with a borrowed list quit forever is a huge red flag.

Boba probably needs a new pilot card and his old one massively spiked in price, despite the fact that most veteran players feel he is fair, because he is too iconic to just get rid of via a Dash style price hike, but he isn't good for the game's longevity now because he just... stops the fun if your not already a really strong player. The "League of Legends Akali rework" treatment, so to speak. Way too strong a Newbie Stomper, regardless of how most aces don't stack up well against him.

So....

If Wedge is correct at 55 points... Poe has an extra health. That's worth between 3 and 4 points. Pilot ability is worth what? Wedge's ability isn't as strong as full double-mods, but it's no stress. Given the mobility gain, I'd say... maybe 2 points more. So Poe probably should be no more than 61, if Wedge is correct. That's a pretty long way off from current prices.

I'm be fine with Poe costing the same as Vader, even. Vader gets double (or triple) action economy without the stress. Darth has less health, but also has 3 green die always backed by mods even when blocked. He does need to lock to get three dice, but gets crit potential to help that out. the dials are very comparable.

Poe costing more than Vader was silly. Same price is decent. 1 point cheaper sounds right.

I dunno. I just don't know if Vader is the right reference point. The Force is really different, and 3 green dice go up dramatically in value when you have consistent focus conversion.

Just seems like Wedge--who has a really close ship to Poe--might be a better point of comparison. Poe at 12 points more than Wedge? Seems kinda absurd to me.

Ello and Nien are 7 points more than Thane, and I think they probably have better abilities, so T-65 -> T70, at the ace level, seems like it's worth about 6 points. I guess I've talked myself into 62 point Poe, since his ability is a bit better than Wedge's.

I agree with @theBitterFig pricing, 61-62 points Poe seems about right.

Even at this price it won't open too many new list combinations, but at least he'd be at roughly the same cost as Nein PA to make it a debately choice.

As for a fix to bring Poe to a top Tier ace. Overdrive thrusters are a good start. Yet as I stated before, 2 defence dice do not bode well for most aces without passive mods. Wedge commonly suffers the same problem, with so many force ace factions you need some passive balance for some of the factions that just don't have alot of force sensistive resources.

A 2 defense dice ship with passive mods can last the distance of the game that you need an ace to do. Boba, Finn and Rose are good examples.

My personal favoured fix for Poe is a new exclusive title card or astromech with his old V1 ability on it, or at least something akin to it.

Honestly I'm on team Poe just needs a point fix - his ability is neat and IMO all the tricks he can pull are also cool (which related, those could stand to increase if Poe drops because BB8 Poe seems not fun). New Poe will probably be cheaper too, so maybe that'll be what we need.

I think 1.0 poe’s ability would be cool to have as Shara Bey’s ability in the RZ-1

As an old 1E Rey-Poe-shipper, I'd be down with an effective Rey-Poe combo.

Sadly, current Poe is a bit meh for his price. Rey is OK but not as great as she used to be -- but some of that is the chassis.