Vader Soontir GI is currently 173 points without upgrades. What do you think this list should cost?

https://strawpoll.com/dbpjzejkx

It’s fine.

I don't know, what should Guri, Talonbane Cobra, and uhh, Unkar Plutt cost without upgrades?

Arguments could be made that Vader and GI are slightly undercosted, but meh, it's mostly fine.

20 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

Arguments could be made that Vader and GI are slightly undercosted, but meh, it's mostly fine.

Arguments like that have to wait until the issue with Barons and Petranaki Aces are dealt with.

But yes, Vader is indeed slightly undercosted, especially when compared to Poe or CLT Anakin. Grand Inquisitor is slightly undercosted, especially when compared to Holo (Holo's fine where he's costed, just that Grand Inky is better if you're flying either vanilla) or to CLT Plo.

I dont think Vader is undercosted, but Vader with his toys are undercosted. Afterburners probably could be 8pts on him, and fcs 4pts. Naked vader is fine and never really been a major threat. GI could probably be a point or two higher to be on equal terms of CLT Obi seems about right. I think Soontir is perfect where he is. Deadly in a good players hands, and a waste of 54pts in other players hands. You could make things like predator and crack shot and other bullseye talents initiative costed since high initiative takes more advantage of bullseye abilities. But naked Soontir is fine.

NOTE: I am biased however because you are talking about my boys!

So far that list was pretty bad:

https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos/152?ranking_start=2020-01-20&format_id=1&

The versions with 5th did better than those with GI, by the way.

Here we go again...

Poll is biased because there's no option for decrease 😜

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

The versions with 5th did better than those with GI, by the way.

5th is also undercosted, by at least 2-3 points. His ability is better than 7th Sister's, yet he's somehow cheaper.

His hit+crit homing missile threat is very strong. Naked, they're about equal, with 7th helping do damage more often, while 5th can capitalize on hits to do greater damage than 7th. But 7th's ability is primary limited, 5th's is not.

Dathomir has 12 lists with Soontir:

• 2x VaderSoontir + (GI/Duchess, so high orange/purple)
• 3x VaderSoontir5th
• 3x VaderSoontirPunisher
• 4x VaderSoontir +2 generics

We'll see how well they'll do

Soontir 69

Grand Inquisitor 69

Darth Vader 69

16 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Soontir 69

Grand Inquisitor 69

Darth Vader 69

" OK wait. If you guys are really us, what number are we thinking of?"

7 hours ago, wurms said:

I dont think Vader is undercosted, but Vader with his toys are undercosted. Afterburners probably could be 8pts on him, and fcs 4pts. Naked vader is fine and never really been a major threat

The issue is Vader naturally synergizes 'more' with lots of upgrades compared to other pilots due to the raw power of the chasis and pilot ability. The fact he goes so nuts with Afterburners or passive sensors or whatever really reflects more on him than those upgrades. While those upgrades getting initiative scaling wasn't a bad thing, just because a ship isn't great vanilla doesn't mean the ship isn't undercosted itself if it keeps breaking a ton of upgrades.

You slap literally any upgrade in the game on Vader that somehow messes with his action economy even more and he hulks out. Pricing these upgrades assuming they are on Vader means they only fit on Vader, but pricing Vader assuming these upgrades is fine as long as you don't 'over correct' the issue and make what should be a neat synergy you can choose from not really a synergy.

It is the Whisper problem all over again: Whisper resulted in the entire ship getting a nerf and multiple upgrades getting nerfs because they were just absurdly strong on her, but it turns out that in reality her ability just broke most things, and she became this massive design limiter who needed to be nerfed.

Eh, +2 each.

If that doesn't work--lather, rinse, repeat.