Hi. I and my friends use to play "vintage" games, using cards also from CCG era. We are a bit confused about Cersei Lannister (Winter Ed.) and what she can cancel. We clarified (thanks to ktom5) that she can cancel passive abilities, but can't cancel constant abilities. My question is: "how can we determine if a certain ability is a passive or constant ability?" Just to be concrete, which of the following could Cersei cancel?

- After you play X, do Y (Mammoth Rampager)

- After X comes into play, do Y (Rabid Wolf)

- When attacking, each defending character gets -1 STR (Moon Brothers)

- When attacking, kill all defending characters before the challenge resolve (Ser Gregore Clegane)

- At the beginning of the dominance phase, chose and discard an attachment from play (The Liberated)

- If you win a challenge in which X attacked alone, instead of the normal claim effects, do Y (Victarion Greyjoy ITE, Northern Sentinel, Pyat Pree)

I think the only one which can't be cancelled is Moon Brothers, right?

And I think that is not the first part of the sentence that determinates "passive" or "constant". The first part is just a play restriction, since Moon Brothers and Gregor Clegane texts begins identically, but one happens at a determinate time, whilst the other is continuative.

If I am right, what happens if Cersei cancel Northern Sentinel ability? It states: "if you win a challenge in which Northern Sentinel attacked alone, instead of the normal claim effects, take control of a location controlled by the losing opponent". Normal claim? No claim?

Thank you very much.

Ikaros said:

There is a definition of both "passive" and "constant" in the FAQ. Passive effects are ones that take place (whether the player wants them to or not) when their play restrictions are met. A constant effects is one that is "always on" and affecting the game. Some constant effects will have play restrictions for when they are active (for example, "if it is WInter" or "while this card is standing"), but when they are active, they cannot be turned off.

To cancel an effect, you are essentially looking for a point of initiation. That means you need and "after" or "at X time" sort of thing in order to know when to initiate something - and thus when to cancel it. Anything that is more of a "when," "while" or "if X is true..." wording is not actually initiating when you go to cancel it because it has always been true.

So in your examples, Moon Brothers and Gregor Clegane are both constant effects. They are both in that "when attacking" (or "if **status is attacking** is true...") format, which means that if you tried to cancel their effects, they are still attacking after the cancel, so their effects would still be true and try to "re-exert" themselves. In fact, Northern Sentinal, Pyat Pree, etc. are also constant effects because if you cancel their effects, they are still attacking alone and you still won the challenge. So none of those can be canceled by Cersei. (That last one is hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around, but the claim replacement effect is always true - if this card is attacking alone, this is what will happen - the point of activation when you win the challenge is the claim effect's initiation, NOT the character ability.)

The others are passive. They have a specific time point at which they are activated instead of always being true. That means they could potentially be canceled by Cersei. All cancels have to work on the initiate-interrupt-(fail to) resolve timing. If you cannot interrupt it (like with Moon Brothers, Gregor and Northern Sentinels), you cannot cancel it.

Thanks, But...

I read the FAQ, but can't understand them properly.
And I can't understand this concept well, maybe because I am not english mothertongue, and I get myself trapped just by the words.

Is not " If you win.. ." considered a play restriction, like the examples in the FAQ ("challenges:", "while Queen of Thorns is standing")?

If it is , the effect of the ability should be just the second part of the sentence.

I can think of it like this examples:

"Response: after you win a X challenge, do Y".

If I cancel this response, I won't cancel the fact that someone has won a challenge (play restriction), but just the effects (do Y).

If I cancel Victarion, I won't cancel the fact that he's winning alone, but just the effects (change the claim).

Or "Knight of flowers" from Core Set, lightly re-arranged: "If Knight of Flowers is standing, at the beginning of the dominance phase, he claims 1 power"

Could Cersei cancel it's ability? She wouldn't cancel the fact that he is standing, just the fact that he claims power...

If it is not ...

Has not "Win a challenge" a specific time point at which it is activated? I.e. step 2 "determining the winner". When winner is determined, the effect takes place. Or maybe, Step 4: passive abilities are triggered.

I think of "If you win a challenge" happening at a very determinated time, which I imagine different from "If you are winning a challenge" (continuative). Isn't it?

If Victarion would read "When you win a challenge in which Victarion attacked alone, instead of the normal claim take control....", would it be different?

Finally...

FAQ 7.1 - section 3.10 - makes a clear distinction between "Triggered Abilities", "Passive abilities" and "Constant Abilities", and seems clear that Cersei could cancel "Triggered Abilities" and "Passive Abilities" but could not cancel "Constant Abilities".

If so, section 3.21states that "Replacemente effects are passive effects", which should put Victarion ability into the 2nd category. Where am I wrong?

Please excuse this long argue of mine, but this concept has affected many of ours games, without possibility of solution by ours talking. I would really appreciate I will undestand it better.

Thank you again, for your time and patience!

Wow. If I understand correctly, all Refugees are bad worded: "If you do not win dominance, pay 1 gold or discard Refugee from play."

If it is constant effect, then there is no chance to save them, you continuosly must pay 1 gold, again and again. Similar with Daenerys Targaryen: "If you win a challenge in which Daenerys Targaryen attacked alone, move all gold tokens from the losing opponent's gold pool to your gold pool." If opponent somehow gets gold afterwards I should be able to steal them again, and it is true until the end of the phase (?). I assume built in simple logic that you cannot check such constant effect before the challenge phase. Or maybe this effect is only checked during resolution of the challenge?

Craster: "If you lose a challenge in which Craster participated, the winning opponent draws 2 cards." So if I lost, my opponent can draw 2 cards and then 2 cards and then 2 cards...? Obviously not. It should be "after you lose...", right?

I've been reasoning about it a while...

Regarding Victarion /Pyatt/Northern Sentinel, how does it work in detail?

Step 3.1: resolve "determine winner" > officially won > replacement effects takes place.
There is no room to a cancel response.
And even if it would, the replacement would re-happen immediately after the cancel.

Step 1.2: settle claim (location change control) > it is a very determinate time .
Step 2.2: save/cancel > Cersei can't cancel the changing of control ? Because it's now a plot ability and NOT a character ability? Why can't she cancel the very control changing effect?

[...]

Step 4: passive abilities trigger > Cersei can't cancel because effects has been fully resolved yet.

So, here, what is most confusing is this statement in rules: " Replacement effects are passive effects ". Shouldn't it be "Replacement effects are " Constant effects"?

And another thing... IF the ability of Victarion is a passive ability , it should take place at Step 4 . And by step 4, claim effects are already gone.

Regarding Ser Gregore Clegane ...

His text reads "...before the challenge resolve". Is it different from, for example, "...after you win a military challenge..."?
It's a matter of timing, again?

Let's see it in detail these two fictional example:
- Ser Gregore Clegane: "When [Clegane is] attacking, kill all defending characters before the challenge resolves"
- Sandor Clegane (fictional): "When [sandor is] attacking, after you win the challenge, kill all defending characters"

Step 1: "determine the winner of the challenge" > Sandor/Gregore controller wins

Step 2: "settle claim effects"

Step 3a: "award unopposed"

Step 3b: "award renown"

Step 1.4: "passive abilities" > here Sandor 's passive ability triggers
Step 2.4: "save / cancel for passive abilities" > Can Cersei cancel the effects? I mean, NOT to cancel that Sandor is partecipating or winning, just cancel the killing of defending characters.

Step 5: "triggered abilities" (for example, "put to the sword")

Step 0.6: "just before end" > here Gregore's passive ability triggers. There is no save/cancel option? What about the same reasoning regarding Sandor?
Step 6 "end of the challenge"

ktom said:

In Ser Gregore Clegane I can read both "when attacking" (constant), and "before the resolution" (point of initiation).

Knight of Flowers from Core Set: "At the beginning of dominance phase, Knight of Flowers claims 1 power, if he is standing"

Again, I can read both "If X is true" (constant) and "at the beginning" (point of initiation).

Are both immune to Cersei? Or could Cersei cancel the Knight of Flowers ability? Where is the difference?

Thanks again.

I know it probably looks like I have been ignoring this one. It's more like I have known it is going to be a long one, so I have been waiting for time to really devote to it.

In general, there seems to be a desire to find a short-hand for play restrictions that, when certain words appear, things are always indicated to be either a constant effect or a passive effect. That is not really the best way to go. The best thing to do is to look at how the effect is applied. If there is a single point of initiation - that occurs whether the player wants is to or no - it is passive. If there is no point of initiation at all, that is, the effect is just applied and becomes part of the game state, it is a constant effect.

Similar, or event the same, play restrictions can be put on either type of effect.

So looking at most of these examples:

- The refugee's "discard if you do not win Dominance" effect is passive because there is a single point of initiation: not winning the dominance count. "Not winning Dominance" has no meaning anywhere else is the game, or indeed even anywhere else in the Dominance phase.

- The Moon Brother's "when attacking" effect is constant because so long as the attacking status is true, the STR gain is true and must be included in any STR check. Since the STR of a character at all times is the total of its printed/base STR and all applicable modifiers, the modifiers themselves are not passive effects (although they can be passively created). You cannot cancel the applicability of the modifier while the character is attacking; you'd have to cancel the action of declaring them as attackers.

- Ser Gregor Clegane is going to depend on the actual text on the card. I haven't looked at the card in years. If the text is simply "while he is attacking, kill all participating characters STR 1 or lower," he is like the Moon Brothers. More to the point, he is like the "kill at 0" part of a burn effect - always true. Now, if his text is actually "while he is attacking, kill all participating characters STR 1 or lower before challenge resolution," there is actually a bit of a problem for when that effect would take place. It certainly sounds like there is a specific point of initiation (before challenge resolution), but in the timing structure, there is no place for a passive like that to actually initiate. There is no "before the challenge resolves" framework window for it to activate in and by the time the passive effect step of the challenge resolution framework window happens, it is too late to kill them "before" challenge resolution. As such, this passive effect would actually initiate in every action window, player or framework, in which Clegane has the status "attacking." Cersei could cancel the effect in the first window, but what's going to happen in the next one? So while he may be a passive effect, he may trigger more than once so long as he is attacking, depending on the text. Get me the exact text, word for word, and I'll maybe we can get into more detail here (there are other possibilities).

- Victarion, Northern Sentinels and other claim replacement effects: You've got to look at these very carefully and consider the entire process in which they are applied. Remember that a challenge is resolved in steps. Specifically:

a. Determine winner
b. Claim effects
c. Award unopposed
d. Award Renown

So, with their text saying "if you win a challenge in which they attack alone, do X instead of the normal thing for claim," you determine in "a" is they effect is applied, then apply it in "b." So when you figure out that they win alone in "a," a new game condition is created, changing the definition of how "b" is initiated. This is not an effect with a distinct point of initiation because you do not activate passive effects for a, b, c or d until all 4 have been completely resolved. If the claim replacement were a pure passive, it would be activated and applied after claim had been resolved and settled - too late to do anything "instead" of the normal claim. Rather, it is part of checking the play restrictions involved in initiating "b." That is how it is applied. The proper way to read the claim replacement effects is "If X (win when attacking alone) is true, Y (do something different for claim) is true as well." You do not read them as "If X happened, do Y," which is what a real passive would be. So, because the real way to apply the results of the claim replacement is as a play restriction that modifies the initiation of the claim effect framework action, this is not a passive effect with a point of initiation that could be canceled by Cersei.

Hope that all makes sense. The real end result is that if you want to cancel something with Cersei, not only do you need a point of initiation indicated by the text of the ability, you need to be able to point to it in the timing structure and identify where, exactly, you would be able to trigger the cancel Response and interrupt it. You have that for the Refugees, Knight of Flowers, etc. You do not have that for Moon Brothers, Ser Gregor (depending on the exact text; I could be majorly messing something up there without the card in front of me) or the claim replacements.

Thanks again.

Regarding Victarion... it seems like I'm beginning to see the light. Cersei can't cancel the fact that he's winning, so replacement happens. And Cersei can't cancel the location control changing, because it's now a claim effect and no more a character ability.
I just think faqs are misleading, talking about replacement effects like passive effects.

Regarding Clegan... maybe I chose an example with bad wording, because he's from Westeros edition. Anyway, the exact text is: "When attacking, kill all defending characters with STR 2 or lower before the challenge resolves", which is almost exactly what I wrote in previous posts.

Regarding all the others... I think it has been all clear from beginning, and there wasn't really a dispute.

So, thank you very very much for your devotion

Ikaros said:

Yes. That is it exactly. She cannot cancel him winning, which is the play restriction for his ability to change the claim effect. She cannot cancel the replacement, or "transformation," of the claim effect because once winning the challenge is true, the application of the replacement is true as well (kind of like with Moon Brothers, while "attacking" is true, the application of the +1 STR is true as well). And she cannot cancel the actual location steal (the next place in the timing structure for her to cancel something anyway) because it is the claim effect that is initiating, not Victarion's character ability, and she cannot cancel claim effects.

Yes, calling replacement effects "passive" can be kind of misleading because most of them are not applied in Step 4 with other passives, but rather as part of whatever they are replacing. They really tend to be something between passives and constants. They are some of the most confusing, and advanced rules, of the game.

Ikaros said:

Ah. Well, that explains it. I didn't realize this was the Westeros version. The entire timing structure we use today was formalized near the end of the second year of the game. Before then, all effects were resolved completely before moving on to the next one. As such, passives and Responses pretty much happened as their own actions instead of as part of another action. So there are some cards from the Westeros and Ice & Fire blocks that do not fit perfectly with the timing. There were different rule and timing assumptions when those cards were created.

As written, it definitely is a passive effect because of the distinct timing point. So, in the WES timing environment, the "before the challenge resolves" passive timing point could, essentially, create itself through the text and would be a passive effect Cersei could cancel. However, in the current timing environment, we run into trouble. The passive cannot create a window of its own (the way it could in WES days) because passives are resolved as parts of other actions. But you never know which player action is the last one before challenge resolution. This means that there are two possibilities for resolving Gregor's effect:

#1: Create an additional framework event in the "Challenge Resolution" framework action window to kill all characters 2 STR or lower, then move on to "determine winner," "claim effects," and all the rest. Keep in mind that if you go with this one, all those dead 2STR characters will technically still be on the table and defending, though they are moribund, when the winner of the challenge is determined.

#2: Have his passive activate in every action window between the time he becomes an attacker and the "Challenge Resolution" framework effect as described in an earlier post.

Looking at those 2 options, #2 seems to be most in keeping with the original intent of this card - removing defenders with 2STR and lower from the determination of winning the challenge. But neither one of them could effectively be canceled by Cersei. In Option #1, the character ability creates the additional framework event so long as Gregor is attacking, and the framework event itself kills the characters. His ability starts looking similar in mechanics to Victarion's replacement effect. In Option #2, the one I would personally go with to fit the old card into the "new" timing structure, Cersei could indeed cancel the passive effect during any one of the action windows between Gregor becoming the attacker and the resolution of the challenge. But unless you find a way for her to cancel it in all those windows, the passive is just going to trigger again at some point.

Anyway, Gregor is something of a history lesson.