Bit more mulling of options. Love the synergy builds all this is opening up but starting to remember simple is mostly best. 70% of the time, smashing your opponent square in the face with all the damage works every time.

Likely you'll want only 1 of these special things in your squad, maybe 2, and many will just go unused. High priced upgrades don't sit well on immobile 1ag.

The alternative is a Palp aces style deal, impossible to say how that will pan out but possibly not badly. Again though, over loading the LAAT for shenanigans probably not wise.

However, Fire Convergence alone looks stronk. Warthog is gonna be the man, I guess. 3x 7B mentioned already, but seems like it will break 200pt fairly easily.

I'm wondering about 2x ARC, 2x V-Wing- assuming 60ish for 2 generic Vs, 140ish with 104ths. 60ish left for whatever force multiplier the LAAT can pack, likely just 1 of the many special things. Probably Warthog with a cheap buff/debuff thing.

Simples. ARCs double mod. Interceptors intercept, LAAT chugs around looking to block space and keep the turret relevant. Throw dice, watch everything burn and cackle like Palps living his best life.

15 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, the article is "Concentrate Your Fire," not "Hose Your Fire Willy-Nilly All Over The Place."

Anyhoo, limiting things to Bullseye is an amazing power-balancer IMHO. Especially since it relies on the oft-vaunted Ability to Fly.

As more Bullseye mechanics crop up, I think FFG does have to take a good hard look at how they price initiative and how they handle first player and bids. Moving last is kinda important.

47 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

As more Bullseye mechanics crop up, I think FFG does have to take a good hard look at how they price initiative and how they handle first player and bids. Moving last is kinda important.

While undoubtedly true, decent bullseye effects aren't only good at higher Init. Using them to give action stacking joust aces a dodge or die choice can be pretty neat. They can be an excellent tool at either end of the spectrum.

12 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

On that note too, the more I read and think about Aayla, the more I'm confused what her text ability is even bothered to be printed for. Like if she's on anything that can carry her in the whole faction, she'll only have one defense die natively. And needs a separate ability or token to actually get profit out of her ability.

So you have to have the attacker in bulls

And either be the target yourself or have it at med range

And botch a die on the defense

And then you get to to spend a token/ability to get something out of that.

Jump through hoops much!? Like at best you make your super dodgy Jedi fighters even more dodgy (read: aggravating). Or if you get this perfect storm of things to go right, +1evade on something. I'd rather they just saved me a point or two and left the ability off lol 😆 😂 just give me a Force/link Coord, that's all I want out of her 🤣

Well like someone mentioned Aayla on an ARC-170 could be pretty good. ARCs get really nasty with a good run of defense dice. ARCs and these LAATs are already pretty healthy ships. Saving a few health while avoiding the opportunity costs of regen astromechs could be a fairly big deal.

And the Torrents tend to hang around longer than they should already. They are filler ships at low initiative mostly already taking focus or evade actions. Aayla on Warthog with a couple of Dedicated Blue Squadron Protectors could hang around and punch above its weight because of Fire Convergence and just sticking around a lot longer than it should. With Fire Convergence your torrents will sit with essentially focus and target lock, plus Aayla's defense boost. Throw a Suppressive Gunner ARC-170 on the wing and you've got these ships that just won't blow up.

Something like:

Warthog - Aayla, Suppressive gunner, Concussion Missiles

2x Blue Squadron Protector - Dedicated, Concussion Missiles

OddBall (ARC-170) - Suppressive Gunner, Sync Console, Kit Fisto

@dezzmont I can't figure that quote thing out either lol. 😝 But I'm always on mobile so maybe the interfaces are different. Anywho...

I agree with you on many of your points, but I think, IMHO and all that, that your conclusion is flawed as you are reaching at the end to make a justification. Let us get what we do agree on down first though. Like your commentary on SG. Perfect. I myself am looking forward to having something to spite the nose of a dodgy ace off in the distance, I just hope it will be impactful enough. The ace will probably shed that deplete before it's next shot anyway. And on a future huge ship with a pile of attacks? Oh yeah baby! Can't go high for damage? Great I'll go low for effects! There's a bunch of high Epic potential in this box we haven't gotten to yet, which makes me very happy 😁

Also on it being a balance of design. Sure. Thanks for agreeing to the highlighting favorites, I agree we should avoid a jank slushy. X-wing had walked this line well for most of it's 2e. 4xFang, 5xRZ2, Droid swarm, TIE swarm, 3xFirespray, 5xX, TIE/Sf swarm, on and on and on. All of those chassis still had options as ships added to another list though. Other times they kinda fall flat, like on the N-1, where it's Ric, or Ani, or filler, but never it's own. But we'll have to see if the second set of points drops on it helps out.

I would point out however that while mutual benefit and supportive ships is good, it's not what the rebels were 'known' for. Capital ship wise, yes. But not as much on fighters till late war, by which point so was the Empire. Rebels are almost always on screen seen flying one or two chassis in tow of the Hero ship. Yavin had only X and a few Y. Most of Phoenix life they only had As. So on flavor term, we could call mono X just par for the course. Just like the empire had it's mono chassis TIE swarm, Rebels get there's in Xs. And that's cool. Saying it's an 'awful place' is a subjectivity issue that not everyone shares. Objectively it's good for variety and sales/converts. And importantly, with points change shenanigans, they can take it in and out of the viability range.

We essentially agree on synergy. Yes, building a synergistic list is good, and fun. But then jumping to the conclusion that it requires you to use different chassis is where we diverge. Let me use 5xRZ2 as an example. It's a mono chassis build that has internal synergy. Tali has a random defense buff who likes having multiple things around them to get a chance to trigger. Lulo and Zizi are hard solo hitting power houses who want some backup. And having some recruits gets you cheap blockers and threats. All together, they become better. Reconfiguring any pile of these little guys is still synergy just like you and I want, and that's good and fun. And you can also take them as parts of other lists and they still work. That's what I want FFG to strive for in all their designs. It's subjective to say it's ideal for mixed chassis too be the ideal. Objectively, that's bad for sales too. Why make a ship to only sell one of it? You can still have synergy in mono chassis swarms, it just comes on the pilots and upgrades cards.

And it's a technicality, but I also disagree that the ship ability (*cough pilot/talentabilityinthewrongspotcough*) is anti-synergy to itself. It's cross upgrade slot synergy because it allows gunships to give missile rerolls to each other and maintain their locks for their turret shots later. So it does have that going for it, which is kinda sweet really. But you have to pay 'up' to it to activate it. It works cross platform and in platform. And the theme of Empire belongs in Empire. Republic has the Brotherhood theme . That's a neat-pick. Command works for both themes, but the way this ones implemented I really don't see the empire style of 'dominating command' or a continuity, but hey that's just me. They do try to shoe horn the LAAT into a command ship forward role when to me it should be a Gunship forward that can carry a commander. But that is somewhat subjective on my own part. Future expansions could expand it's role towards assault anyway if needed. Something to look forward too. Cheers!

9 hours ago, dezzmont said:

@ForceSensitive because I am a dummy who can't figure out multi-page quotes.

6 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

@dezzmont I can't figure that quote thing out either lol. 😝 But I'm always on mobile so maybe the interfaces are different. Anywho...

What I've started doing is quoting, moving onto the next page, and using the "Your previous content has been restored" feature. Selecting everything in the comment window, then copying it, and later pasting, also sometimes works, but it can be a bit of a pain, the quote blocks don't always select well...

@Frimmel It's going to be really dependant on costs, mostly on whether or not the two supports are close to the 60pt mark, but it's quite a lot. My builder subs in 200 when the actual price isn't known.

THREE'S (732/200)
================
LAAT/i Gunship: "Warthog" (200 + 200)
+ Suppressive Gunner (200)
ARC-170: "Sinker" (54 + 200)
+ Aayla Secura (200)
V-19 Torrent: Blue Squadron Protector (26)

V-19 Torrent: Blue Squadron Protector (26)

V-19 Torrent: Blue Squadron Protector (26)

And I can't imagine I'll be able to fit both of these named clones, but if the ship is even 48, it could be an interesting formation without the Clones.

Le Alpha (1012/200)
=================
LAAT/i Gunship: 212th Battalion Pilot (200 + 200)
+ Wolfpack (200)
LAAT/i Gunship: 212th Battalion Pilot (200 + 4)
+ Clone Commander Cody (4)
LAAT/i Gunship: 212th Battalion Pilot (200 + 4)
+ Cluster Missiles (4)
LAAT/i Gunship: 212th Battalion Pilot (200 + 4)
+ Cluster Missiles (4)

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

The alternative is a Palp aces style deal, impossible to say how that will pan out but possibly not badly. Again though, over loading the LAAT for shenanigans probably not wise.

I think this is interesting as Palp didn't have a great carrier so far in Republic. If you can fit Ani and Obi (or Plo, Mace, or someone else) in either the Aethersprite or Actis alongside a Palp gunship we could have a 1e Palp aces-esque list (in composition at least) that could be really interesting. Maybe not good, but certainly interesting, and the LAAT will provide more useful fire support than a Lambda did.

8 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

The alternative is a Palp aces style deal, impossible to say how that will pan out but possibly not badly. Again though, over loading the LAAT for shenanigans probably not wise.

I think that LAAT + Obi-Wan & Anakin will definitely fit. It’ll depend (bid wise) on what you use upgrade/crew wise on what the make up of the list looks like. (R2/D2 on an Actis, Patience, do you add Yoda/Palp) etc.

edited I’m referring to the Actis (I believe the Aethersprite will be banned from Hyperspace when they arrive)

34 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

@Frimmel It's going to be really dependant on costs, mostly on whether or not the two supports are close to the 60pt mark, but it's quite a lot. My builder subs in 200 when the actual price isn't known.

Well I used Extended in the builder and subbed in Palps and Ahsoka gunner for Kit and Suppressive gunner in my Tough Torrents list. I have 58 points left for the LAAT.

Suppressive gunner is unlikely to be 12 points and in extended you can get another four points back subbing cluster missiles for the concussion missiles. So I'm probably having in the 65 points range for the LAAT. I think Warthog though will be the pricey pilot out of this but even at that, dropping Oddball ARC to a SSV could let you drop Kit (Kit wants to hang out with Odd Ball IMO) and now your ARC gets a zombie shot as well.

I think though Aayla would be good with your Torrents. That could become a pretty nice anvil depending on what sort of hammer you'll be able to fit.

Yeah it could be, but I'd still be worried about overall punch. 4 out of 5 ships only have 2atk prime, and the one that does have a 3 needs time to turn. And Aayla, even in the ever so slightly better ARC, still had to get that bulls and range all working together. That is still a LOT of hoop jumping. I'll still lean more on her coord I think but not sure where that gets me yet.

Who here wishes the LAAT has a 3-dice Bullseye attack, like the Eta-2, along with the 2-dice bowtie?

Then again, most of its weapons are for ground attack. And game balance is a factor.

I wonder what iterations FFG came up for the LAAT's arcs.

After seeing all this I now understand why 7th fleet gunner was added to hyperspace. 7th fleet on Laat, you give extra die + 2 rerolls. You don't even need that 2 die attack.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

Yeah it could be, but I'd still be worried about overall punch. 4 out of 5 ships only have 2atk prime, and the one that does have a 3 needs time to turn. And Aayla, even in the ever so slightly better ARC, still had to get that bulls and range all working together. That is still a LOT of hoop jumping. I'll still lean more on her coord I think but not sure where that gets me yet.

Well her co-ordinate is going to get you further than Battle Meditation or most other examples of co-ordinate since you do not have to entirely pass off her ship's action to another ship because of focus->co-ordinate link. It will depend on if you can get some free target locks for missiles via Synchronized Console or so on. And don't get forgetful. The spread from the announcement makes it look like we'll get these in the expansion:

Those could allow this ship to hit pretty hard. We'll see when we get the points I guess.

I did not double submit.

Anyway these LAATs look like fun and all the new gunners and crew will make for some interesting choices for my ARCs.

@Frimmel I'm thinking those pods are going to be like 10 points though. Not sure about the fit. And again, if someone gets caught in the bulls of a LAAT, in range, and with a lock or get passed one, it will be as much dumb luck as anything. So I'm only ever expecting it to pull the work load a barrage rocket would do itself, since my side turrets would be just as good in the 180 arc that isn't also in my front, so the pods do me no good there. So if I'm stuck shooting range 1-2 for 3 die in the front arc anyway, may as well be clusters for two shots right? If the pods are bizarrely cheap like 6? Well, we're all just guessing here.

Saturation salvo though, that might get you somewhere with the pods. That might be a thing if there's an elite on a LAAT, but I don't there is.

2 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

Yeah it could be, but I'd still be worried about overall punch. 4 out of 5 ships only have 2atk prime, and the one that does have a 3 needs time to turn. And Aayla, even in the ever so slightly better ARC, still had to get that bulls and range all working together. That is still a LOT of hoop jumping. I'll still lean more on her coord I think but not sure where that gets me yet.

Aayla has text? I figure she's good just for the force and Focus > Coordinate.

24 minutes ago, ForceSensitive said:

@Frimmel I'm thinking those pods are going to be like 10 points though. Not sure about the fit. And again, if someone gets caught in the bulls of a LAAT, in range, and with a lock or get passed one, it will be as much dumb luck as anything. So I'm only ever expecting it to pull the work load a barrage rocket would do itself, since my side turrets would be just as good in the 180 arc that isn't also in my front, so the pods do me no good there. So if I'm stuck shooting range 1-2 for 3 die in the front arc anyway, may as well be clusters for two shots right? If the pods are bizarrely cheap like 6? Well, we're all just guessing here.

I'm almost expecting something kinda cheap on them. For most ships, they won't have Calculate, so it'll be a lock missile which does 3 dice against someone in arc. Cluster Missiles without a bonus attack.

Bullseye is nice when you can pull it off, but 4 dice < 5 dice, and Proton Rockets are 6 points.

Mostly, though, I still kinda don't expect the MMPs to be that good.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Aayla has text? I figure she's good just for the force and Focus > Coordinate.

Honestly, I went blind after seeing the Focus > Coordinate. I have no clue what the crew actually does. Now, I need to go back and look.

Are there any other linked actions aside from the SF rotate that doesn't require stress in non-epic?

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Aayla has text? I figure she's good just for the force and Focus > Coordinate.

That's what I said! Like a page ago lol! 😂

A key thing about Aayla for Epic, for those who are interested. Ships that are not part of your own list are not considered friendly to your ships, so she doesn't help allied players' ships.

Current RR page 11 and 12:

FRIENDLY
All ships/devices controlled by the same player are friendly to each other.
Any dice rolled by that player are friendly to those ships. This is in contrast
with enemy

• Ships cannot perform attacks against friendly ships, unless specified
otherwise.
• A ship is friendly to itself and can affect itself with any of its abilities that affect
friendly ships, unless those abilities explicitly refer to “other” friendly ships.

Epic Battles RR page 2:

ALLIED
Allied ships are ships controlled by another player on the same team. The
following applies to allied ships:
• Allied ships are not treated as friendly ships.
• Allied ships are not treated as enemy ships.

This applies to any ability that requires the subject of the ability be "friendly" to you.

Upon further review, Aayla gets even better. Unlike Bariss or Lumi, she does not need to spend a force token to alter results. Not a bad ability considering you'll be taking her for Focus > Coordinate. She'd like Vonreg: you're buying something else with your points while the bullseye ability is incidental and a bonus if it triggers.

3 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

I think that LAAT + Obi-Wan & Anakin will definitely fit. It’ll depend (bid wise) on what you use upgrade/crew wise on what the make up of the list looks like. (R2/D2 on an Actis, Patience, do you add Yoda/Palp) etc.

They'll have to be the Actis version-it's nowhere close to fitting with double Delta-7b (I tried it with palp and a generic ARC and it was probably ~20 points over? post-nerf delta-7b on ani is a trip ) and probably doesn't have enough teeth with CLT. That being said, the Actis looks like an absolute beast so I'm not worried, and it's a good bit more maneuverable than the Delta-7 anyway.

2 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

They'll have to be the Actis version -it's nowhere close to fitting with double Delta-7b (I tried it with palp and a generic ARC and it was probably ~20 points over? post-nerf delta-7b on ani is a trip ) and probably doesn't have enough teeth with CLT. That being said, the Actis looks like an absolute beast so I'm not worried, and it's a good bit more maneuverable than the Delta-7 anyway.

That's the version I'm talking about, I think by January update the Aethersprite will be banned from Hyperspace.

7B should never see Hyperspace again

55 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Upon further review, Aayla gets even better. Unlike Bariss or Lumi, she does not need to spend a force token to alter results. Not a bad ability considering you'll be taking her for Focus > Coordinate. She'd like Vonreg: you're buying something else with your points while the bullseye ability is incidental and a bonus if it triggers.

Or Tallie, same thing, which I think I pointed out earlier? But counter point, whatever she does get to use her ability on will still need to spend something to take that focus and turn it into a result.