So I'm assuming this is a double sided card Offensive Stance you get 2 AIM tokens when you perform that action and 2 Dodge tokens when you perform a Dodge.

This can only go on a unit with Force capabilities and Training

Who can take this?

Anakin, Luke Operative, Vader Operative, Maul? Obi-wan Kenobi

Do you want to take this?

Because of the Action requirement, I'm not sure this is better than Hunter for 6pts or Offensive Push (don't require the action) although if the other side gets you 2 Dodge tokens, you could maybe use that to keep a figure alive as they march forward. Until there's a double training slot jedi (Aayla Secure or Mace Windu maybe) you don't get the benefit of Double Dodge and Situational Awareness. I guess this is if you're afraid of rolling bad (which happens)

What do you think? Are you looking forward to this or is it DOA?

I could see running this a fair bit, particularly on Obi-Wan if I played Republic. Assuming that the card is Defensive Stance and it does the same thing with dodges I think it'll see play. One dodge on a deflect unit is good at deterring some fire; two is better.

The offensive side is gonna be more dependent on the user. Units that roll red or mostly red (IE OP Vader) won't get much use out of it, but I could see it being ran on OP Luke who has a large enough die pool to get good mileage off of two aims.

Commander Vader could theoretically make good use of defensive stance if he had a training slot. Commander Vader should get a training slot to open up options for him because right now his force power lineup is pretty much locked in and compulsory. It would be nice if saber throw didnt cost Vader a force slot too. Commander Vader should get some options for his upgrades and sadly right now he has zero options.

Operative Vader can use defensive stance since he doesnt really need aim tokens. Operative Vader can certainly use the extra dodge token. And it interacts very strongly with Vader's command cards that give him dodges. So I like it on operative vader. But giving up endurance for it kindve sucks because the suppression will really pile on from spur without endurance. I do think spur needs to be changed though.

Operative Luke would definitely benefit from it more than Vader since both offensive and defensive stance are useful to Luke. I think its a no brainer on operative Luke.

I think it will be really useful with Anakin and his Exemplar rule.

2 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

I think it will be really useful with Anakin and his Exemplar rule.

Article also mentions how he can retaliate or counterattack. Will have to wait and see everything Anakin can do.

Well in theory, the Rebels and Empire will get a force user who comes with this upgrade some time in the future, just to prevent Rebel players buying Anakin to get the upgrade for their OP Luke. So I think we'll have to see the design space of how this functions on people like Obi-Wan and Anakin, and that'll probably give us some clue as to who is coming for Rebels/Empire.

Most likely it'll be Kanan or Ezra with Grand Inquisitor or Seventh Sister, but we'll have to see.

3 hours ago, Nithorian said:

Well in theory, the Rebels and Empire will get a force user who comes with this upgrade some time in the future, just to prevent Rebel players buying Anakin to get the upgrade for their OP Luke. So I think we'll have to see the design space of how this functions on people like Obi-Wan and Anakin, and that'll probably give us some clue as to who is coming for Rebels/Empire.

Most likely it'll be Kanan or Ezra with Grand Inquisitor or Seventh Sister, but we'll have to see.

or adult Ahsoka since she's coming to the Mandalorian in a month. More Hype!

48 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

or adult Ahsoka since she's coming to the Mandalorian in a month. More Hype!

I think they'll want to put her in the Clone Wars long before we see her in the GCW. I also wouldn't be surprised if they are reluctant to do characters that are cross faction, that change a lot between their variations. Because we know with OP Luke/Vader and R2/3PO that command cards are bound to the character not the specific version of a character.

So for things like Old Ben or Fulcrum Ahsoka, I doubt we'll see them, at least not for a very long time, because they won't want to force people to buy the Clone Wars versions of them (and with Kenobi that is the whole core set) just so you can get all of their command cards.

21 minutes ago, Nithorian said:

I think they'll want to put her in the Clone Wars long before we see her in the GCW. I also wouldn't be surprised if they are reluctant to do characters that are cross faction, that change a lot between their variations. Because we know with OP Luke/Vader and R2/3PO that command cards are bound to the character not the specific version of a character.

So for things like Old Ben or Fulcrum Ahsoka, I doubt we'll see them, at least not for a very long time, because they won't want to force people to buy the Clone Wars versions of them (and with Kenobi that is the whole core set) just so you can get all of their command cards.

They could do both or release a dual pack (adult and teenager together) that way they show up for both factions together, kind of like R2D2 did.

If we're right about the defensive card effect, I could see it being good on obi-wan with force reflexes. Not sure if I'd want to give up his tenacity though.

8 hours ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

If we're right about the defensive card effect, I could see it being good on obi-wan with force reflexes. Not sure if I'd want to give up his tenacity though.

He almost needs that to keep his damage up, just like every Force user has Force Reflexes stapled to them so far to try and stay alive until they can pop their double attack

by making deflect require a dodge token to activate they ensured that force users will always and forever take force reflexes.

I personally would like to see the rules for deflect change to not require a dodge token anymore so taking force reflexes is less compulsory.

I dont think its good for the game for force reflexes to be a compulsory upgrade.

Compulsory upgrades are bad for the game because it defeats the entire purpose of upgrades which is to have different options available to play characters in different ways. But if one option is always the best option it locks the character into only being played in one particular way.

Note that Defensive Stance will most likely not work with Force Reflexes. Offensive Stance grants double tokens on an Aim action, so Defensive will probably grant double on a Dodge action.

10 hours ago, OneLastMidnight said:

Note that Defensive Stance will most likely not work with Force Reflexes. Offensive Stance grants double tokens on an Aim action, so Defensive will probably grant double on a Dodge action.

defensive stance could also give nimble. which makes more sense than double dodge tokens IMO. since double dodge tokens isnt quite enough to make me want to take a dodge action with a jedi. but I might consider it for nimble since nimble+deflect would be pretty decent.

12 hours ago, Khobai said:

by making deflect require a dodge token to activate they ensured that force users will always and forever take force reflexes.

I personally would like to see the rules for deflect change to not require a dodge token anymore so taking force reflexes is less compulsory.

I dont think its good for the game for force reflexes to be a compulsory upgrade.

Compulsory upgrades are bad for the game because it defeats the entire purpose of upgrades which is to have different options available to play characters in different ways. But if one option is always the best option it locks the character into only being played in one particular way.

I'd really like to see the dodge token mechanic dropped from Deflect. It's never felt right to me. I think Deflect should be an always active ability. If it proved to be too powerful, then just tweak it to only kick in if the attacking unit is within range 2 or something.

If there's ever a second edition of the game I hope they rework Deflect to make it independent of tokens.

23 hours ago, Nithorian said:

I think they'll want to put her in the Clone Wars long before we see her in the GCW. I also wouldn't be surprised if they are reluctant to do characters that are cross faction, that change a lot between their variations. Because we know with OP Luke/Vader and R2/3PO that command cards are bound to the character not the specific version of a character.

So for things like Old Ben or Fulcrum Ahsoka, I doubt we'll see them, at least not for a very long time, because they won't want to force people to buy the Clone Wars versions of them (and with Kenobi that is the whole core set) just so you can get all of their command cards.

Command cards are bound to a character's name. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader don't share command cards, for example. FFG could get creative with the names to keep Rebel and Republic versions separate. Perhaps Rebels will get Ben Kenobi and Fulcrum instead of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka.

I think R2/3PO are different because they don't age and change the same way as other characters.

6 hours ago, Shrike said:

I'd really like to see the dodge token mechanic dropped from Deflect. It's never felt right to me. I think Deflect should be an always active ability. If it proved to be too powerful, then just tweak it to only kick in if the attacking unit is within range 2 or something.

If there's ever a second edition of the game I hope they rework Deflect to make it independent of tokens.

I think deflect should always be on as well and trigger on defensive surges.

That might be a reason to introduce a black defense die to the game. Just so you dont end up giving most jedi a 2/3 save which would be way too good.

The black defense die could be block/block/surge with 3 blanks that way they still get the same 1/2 save they have now and the same 1/6 chance to deflect.

53 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I think deflect should always be on as well and trigger on defensive surges.

That might be a reason to introduce a black defense die to the game. Just so you dont end up giving most jedi a 2/3 save which would be way too good.

The black defense die could be block/block/surge with 3 blanks that way they still get the same 1/2 save they have now and the same 1/6 chance to deflect.

No need for black dice, just have a surge for Deflect ability given to Force users. That buffs Vader and Vader Operative automatically

So dont give deflect to every jedi automatically?

I mean it would be fine on Vader because hes trash. but when you give it to Luke its kindve overpowered. Luke is already so good.

My concern with deflect being free is that it makes some characters way too good. The last thing Luke needs is a 2/3 armor save with surge to deflect always on.

Just now, Khobai said:

So dont give deflect to every jedi automatically?

I mean it would be fine on Vader because hes trash. but when you give it to Luke its kindve overpowered.

If they were going to change it, yeah, I wouldn't give it to all of them. Some of them were better at deflecting than others. Operative Luke should have it, ESB Luke probably shouldn't.

Actually the CW guys have different variations on the deflect, hence Soresu Mastery for Obiwan, Block for Grievous, etc.

@buckero0 If it didn't involve extra bookkeeping and further complicate the game, I could almost see the introduction of "Force Charges" similar to X-wing v2, with the ability to spend Force Charges to active Deflect. Each character could start with a different amount, different Force upgrades could cost some number of points to activate, etc. But this is probably just adding complexity for complexities sake, which isn't necessarily good design.

12 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

Command cards are bound to a character's name. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader don't share command cards, for example. FFG could get creative with the names to keep Rebel and Republic versions separate. Perhaps Rebels will get Ben Kenobi and Fulcrum instead of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka.

I think R2/3PO are different because they don't age and change the same way as other characters.

The "issue" being that the first character that would allow for this sort of name manipulation (Darth Maul) was released without the "Darth" honorific on his card, which would probably be more appropriate for later versions of the character. So while this is possible, we don't yet have evidence that this is planned. It is further possible (and probably likely) that the names have to be approved by Disney as part of the licensing deal, which would mean FFG might be limited in their flexibility here. But this is a good way to keep the "flavour" of a cross faction character restricted to particular factions. Another would be to just print "Rebel faction only" on the Command card.

18 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

Command cards are bound to a character's name. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader don't share command cards, for example. FFG could get creative with the names to keep Rebel and Republic versions separate. Perhaps Rebels will get Ben Kenobi and Fulcrum instead of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Ahsoka.

I think R2/3PO are different because they don't age and change the same way as other characters.

Those are far more likely to be the titles on the units rather than the unit's name. Vader is fine, because he is often shown/seen as being a completely different character/persona from Anakin Skywalker. But for Ahsoka and Obi Wan that would be a lot harder to pull off, because they aren't that different from their younger counter parts. Ahsoka is more powerful, Obi Wan might be a little weaker with his lightsaber, but probably has gained another rank of Master of the Force.

When you compare Ahsoka to Commander/OP Luke, you can see how she might get a similar treatment, where they release an older more powerful version later (Fulcrum). The trouble is they operate in different factions, and this is going to come up again if they ever do the ST factions, because R2 and 3PO should be in the Resistance as well, but they won't have unit cards/tokens for that faction. So they'll likely come up with a solution to these cross faction characters that change significantly between the factions long before we get to the ST factions, and run into the issue with the droids.

They could always allow the older versions of the characters to be played in the Clone Wars as well. Maybe Old Ben is an Operative, that comes with both a Rebel and Republic Card (perhaps the Republic Card's art has younger Obi Wan on it). Then they could give you all of his command cards both Commander and Operative in the Operative pack, so Rebels don't need to buy the Clone Wars core set and the Republic players get them all as well, just encase they also never bought the core set. We know you can use any official model to represent a character on the board, and it is the unit card that decides which version of the character it is. So if having Old Ben in your Clone Army doesn't feel right, you can still use your Commander Obi Wan model with the Operative unit card.

On 9/1/2020 at 1:49 PM, buckero0 said:

So I'm assuming this is a double sided card Offensive Stance you get 2 AIM tokens when you perform that action and 2 Dodge tokens when you perform a Dodge.

This can only go on a unit with Force capabilities and Training

Who can take this?

Anakin, Luke Operative, Vader Operative, Maul? Obi-wan Kenobi

Do you want to take this?

Because of the Action requirement, I'm not sure this is better than Hunter for 6pts or Offensive Push (don't require the action) although if the other side gets you 2 Dodge tokens, you could maybe use that to keep a figure alive as they march forward. Until there's a double training slot jedi (Aayla Secure or Mace Windu maybe) you don't get the benefit of Double Dodge and Situational Awareness. I guess this is if you're afraid of rolling bad (which happens)

What do you think? Are you looking forward to this or is it DOA?

I'm looking forward to it on Maul, assuming he throws a good amount of dice. The only time I've ever seen an Aim action taken by a force user was when that force user was already engaged with a tough multi-wound model that hadn't had a chance to move/withdraw yet. I've seen it with Saber Throw too but the 1-2 range usually means I'm trying to keep up with whatever I'm attacking if I don't last-first, so an Aim action isn't always guaranteed.

Defensive Stance seems pretty good too, there are definitely times I would want a Dodge action in addition to Force Reflexes for 1 or 2 turns, and the ability to just flip it at the start of your activation means you aren't stuck with it on the turns that you want to go ham. Pretty versatile for only 5 points.

19 hours ago, Khobai said:

I think deflect should always be on as well and trigger on defensive surges.

That might be a reason to introduce a black defense die to the game. Just so you dont end up giving most jedi a 2/3 save which would be way too good.

The black defense die could be block/block/surge with 3 blanks that way they still get the same 1/2 save they have now and the same 1/6 chance to deflect.

I think there are many good reasons to introduce black defence dice. Their introduction would be pretty significant though and such a change would probably be best done at the start of a new edition. Hopefully they'll boost Deflect before then.

19 minutes ago, Shrike said:

I think there are many good reasons to introduce black defence dice. Their introduction would be pretty significant though and such a change would probably be best done at the start of a new edition. Hopefully they'll boost Deflect before then.

I agree that such a change is best handled in new editions.
But am of the opinion that similar arguments can be made for additional colours of attack die. At that point, all the dice can be cheaply replaced with with traditional number dice, with does away with much of the simplicity of symbolic dice. However, that is a discussion that has been covered in a different topic.

6 hours ago, Nithorian said:

So if having Old Ben in your Clone Army doesn't feel right, you can still use your Commander Obi Wan model with the Operative unit card.

Clearly old Ben in the Republic army is if Order 66 never occurred, or at least if his entire army somehow disabled their control chips and defected. 😛