I honestly think the A-Wings will see some more play once the Deadeye Shot talent becomes available. A I3 A-Wing veteran will be able to grab Marksmanship + Deadeye Shot and have this easy to use Bullseye Card flip with each attack. Maks their 2 Dice attacks more deadly.

2 hours ago, Schanez said:

I honestly think the A-Wings will see some more play once the Deadeye Shot talent becomes available. A I3 A-Wing veteran will be able to grab Marksmanship + Deadeye Shot and have this easy to use Bullseye Card flip with each attack. Maks their 2 Dice attacks more deadly.

I don't think so; they are already too pricey, there's really little chance adding the price of 2 EpTs on top of it helps.

@dezzmont my dude you've hit a lot of individual items that were going to have to pick through to get to a core. You type long like I do, so we're going to get along great though lol 😆 I had a long point by point break down of commentary, but slept on it and decided to rewrite it in a tighter form. Still got long. Forum forgive me like I know you won't 😂

Most of your points all point back to one source material. And your, to be blunt, hero worship of it. We can all sympathize of course. I was around for the old X/TIE games, but also ironically never played them. Instead all my seat time in an A was in classic BF2. My N64 days were all in SotE, and Pod Racer. So I'm a Dash super fan. Never actually got to the RS game until the past few years at Bar-cade. For the design of any element though, we have to be mindful of all the sources. And then fit that within the scope of the game. I'm about to reference this a ton. For all my love of the Dashster, this scope view keeps it in check.

This often means condensing and reducing by common denominator. Most fighters had jammers, even the Falcon, even the X. So jams out as it's not a focus of it's theme, and easily so as even you point out it was difficult for the pilot to do on the fly. Easy cut. Missiles have to be kept at least in scale with the other ordnance carriers abilities, especially in a faction so full of them. The best way to up it's ordnance ability will be to up everyone's, so that it doesn't steal thunders. Improved ordnances will just happen as the game goes along anyway, so that's out as a specific fixer.

We got to get into some dismantles of ideas though, I can't not address some of these. The A, for all our love, much respect from a fellow enthusiast, was just not as great as you talk it up to be. The first battle they deployed it, only 2 survived. Throughout it's use in Rebels, it was the redshirt. Some sources called it a Slim for not just shape, but slim chance to live. Compared to some old sources that put the X-wing's kill rate of ties in the hundreds to one, where the A was no where near that. And the scope of this game is (sometimes sadly) front line combat ability.

You also mentioned, and repeated, the ramming being a focus of it's design. That's simply untrue. Only one pilot card has that, and the upgrade Intimidation is featured in other ships designs as well like Zeb and Fangs. Only Arvels gets more remembered because he was far more featured in one epic screen shot. Most people don't use this block/ram feature anyway, relying on crack shot instead. Which is more efficient and consistent. It seems that it's you who's hyper focused on it, and who could blame you really. Depending on your experiences it would have been a coin toss how you saw it as Arvel is half it's named pilot pool currently. It was never going to stay that way however. That never made ram/block the ships theme. It's real focus has been elite skills, and that was carried over from it's 1e development and fixing. Hence why we get S-Slash, but share it with the -2.

Jake does not intrude on the Sheathipede at all. Jake has a cheerleader effect, comparable to Garven even. Basic Coordinate will never be threatened by Jake doing stunts for inspiration, when coord can make ships literally move and impersonate advsen entirely at I1.

The A is not priced, or even designed, as a trash ship. It's designed and priced in that scope I mentioned. It's guns are closer to a TIE, definitely less than an X, so 2. Agility high, so 3. Small hull, so 2. Shields comparable to others it's type, so 2. Add in actions and dial, compare to game scope and scales, gets you around 30. They do have it too expensive right now though. (Go home horse, your dead drunk lol) all the things you cite as reasons that made the A great, the X had similar or was better in other regards, or another ship was in it's place. There's no X-wing world where the A stands higher price pound for pound than an X, when it still needs held to the scope of the E-wing alone, let alone any other ship. This also touches why the Sensor slot is risky on an A, because than it overlaps some of the uniqueness of B's and E's. And if they wanted to give you any of that tech, they could just as easily open it's Modification slot for all the tech it has like stealth and jammers. That's a more generic slot anyway, that doesn't infringe on anyone's identity, though brings it's own problems.

We do get down to one issue that we share with it currently, slipperiness. In the conversion from 1e with the blessed death of PtL, the effect of double reposition had to be divided out individually. A personal gripe I've had since then was the loss of boost>roll ordering on the A. But remember scope enters here too, and that meant the Tie Interceptor would retain that trick as it was a strong part of it's identity also. The A kept it's implied speed via it's own version instead with it's better dial and ability together. The two had to be seperated and have a unique trick each, and without the health pool the Squint needed that versatility of reposition order queues more. Sad, but needed to happen. So they will go back to the theme of elite skill, and keep finding ways to try and push different position tricks, just like we want. But it's going to take more than tricks that it has to share with it's younger brother to give anyone a reason to fly it over said younger brother.

So long as the 2 has it's enhanced board arc coverage, the 1 will always be in it's shadow as it has been. It's what had made this topic one of the more recurring ones. There's no escaping that. If you try too hard to split them, you might even lose the connective tissue in the process. Give the 1 a sensor and then you wonder why the 2 doesn't have the same on top of it's ST identity of Tech.

A little bit off topic, but thane kyrell+deadeye shot can flip two cards with one dice. That's wild

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

And your, to be blunt, hero worship of it

Nope. Just trying to be hyperbolic to get through to people this is not a mechanical problem, it is a problem of identity. The ship getting cheaper to the point you would use it as a filler ship instead of the headhunter in extended isn't going to fix the fact that its real feels bad for such a loved ship to constantly accomplish nothing and then exploding.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

The A, for all our love, much respect from a fellow enthusiast, was just not as great as you talk it up to be

It kinda is? The A-wing shows up a lot in EU material and is, in fact, sorta a rebel super ship that required constant tune ups and served as the tip of the rebel spear, so to speak. On screen it was nothing special, but in the EU it was way more. It certainly wasn't a Defender in terms of hype, but it was very much supposed to be an elite ship.

The A-wing is a very beloved ship due to its appearances in supplemental materials, but the mechanics in X-wing are pretty heavily based purely on its fight on Endor. That is fine for part of the theme, but its part of why there is such a huge disconnect with it and why its a common point of contention among rebel players: its... special. ❤️

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

Missiles have to be kept at least in scale with the other ordnance carriers abilities, especially in a faction so full of them

The A-wing was explicitly a missile ship in a lot of supplementary materials. While many ships in the faction use ordinance, this isn't the case of 'a rising tide raises all ships.' Unilaterally buffing ordinance merely makes the ships that are viable with ordinance better. It does not help A-wing ordinance, which as others have noted have unique problems to prevent it from working (mainly the fact that low initiative TLs are hard, and the anti-synergy between low health high agility ships and TLs, and the ship's ability with TLs. The A-wing is just... a bad ordinance carrier for a ship noted for its ordinance in setting).

This is a problem because in the old lore the A-wing's combo of unusually powerful missiles, sensors, and jammers made it a 'raiding/scout' ship, that would be able to collect data on facilities extremely quickly and do lots of damage before escaping because unlike most other fighters its jammers were capable of fully jamming a TIE. The combo of missiles, sensors, and jamming make up its entire combat role in the old EU.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

You also mentioned, and repeated, the ramming being a focus of it's design. . That's simply untrue

I mentioned bumping being a focus, because that is true at least mechanically. That is the ship's current niche that actually utilizes any lore aspect of the ship (specifically its superior shielding in the front). I think the only real argument that could be made that this isn't a focus for the ship is that the ship currently has no focus and this just was the mechanical niche it landed on, which isn't much better IMO.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

Jake does not intrude on the Sheathipede at all. Jake has a cheerleader effect, comparable to Garven even.

Jake serves as a coordinate in any scenario where your trying to get a double mod, rather than a reposition, on a better more survivable ship (And it says something about AP-5 that it is really terrible at staying alive that an A-wing is better defensively). The Sheathipede basically doesn't see play in extended except as a budget crew carrier, which is why a crew slot on an A-wing is probably not a good idea. Jake sees a comical amount of play because rebels want double mods far more than off turn reposition. It was his entire purpose in Handbrake Han for example.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

The A is not priced, or even designed, as a trash ship

It is exclusively low initiative ships with 3 agility 2 firepower and no way to gain value at the moment besides sheer firepower. It is currently 7 points more expensive than a TIE fighter or Headhunter. I think it is celarly a trash ship.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

all the things you cite as reasons that made the A great, the X had similar or was better in other regards

This is just... not true. To quote the Wookiepedia:

Quote

Although a capable starfighter, the a-wing was especially notable for its intelligence-gathering and reconnaissance missions....

...The ship was littered with concealed multi-spectral imagers and other sensors, which allowed it to gather information about an enemy. These abilities were further enhanced by its sensor-jamming system, which was powerful enough to disrupt detection and targeting systems of TIE fighters and other small vessels....

I don't think Jam is very mechanically interesting, but the fact the ship basically did flyby sensor sweeps and then jumped out is a pretty cool place to find a way to put more 'proactive' power into the A-wing. The ability to quickly scan things as you flew by could really easily be re-interpreted as some sort of 'get a target lock while going fast' effect, and synergizes with how it routinely raided instillation and pounded them with missiles before bailing by making ordinance A-wings more of a thing.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

This also touches why the Sensor slot is risky on an A, because than it overlaps some of the uniqueness of B's and E's

While this is true, the ship is so fragile it would still feel very different. An A with a sensor is very unlike a B or E with a sensor because it still is totally incapable of jousting.

A mod slot is fine too, but I think a config that emphasizes its history as a scanner/jammer ship might be more wise.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

So long as the 2 has it's enhanced board arc coverage, the 1 will always be in it's shadow as it has been. It's what had made this topic one of the more recurring ones. There's no escaping that.

There are so many ways to escape that, even if reverse firing would be cool for some people.

The RZ-2 doesn't overshadow literally every interceptor of a similar statline in the game, because those interceptors have unique upsides outside of budget pricing to help make up for it. The TIE/In, TIE/x, TIE/v, Nantex, and Delta-7 are all low durability with similar abilities in terms of being able to repo+mod, but don't exist in the shadow of the RZ-1 because of a native 3 red, the crit functionality, the force users with good abilities, the side arc coverage, and the force users and CTL options to get to 3 offense respectively.

The RZ-1 doesn't have to emulate the arc coverage to match the RZ-2, because rear guns are not a requirement for low initiative 'trash aces.' It does however, need some upside to parley the fact it is an ace platform not using an ace into something useful, which every other ship of this class can do to justify a non-ace pilot.

That is why exclusivity is probably a better angle to get the RZ-1 out of the RZ-2's shadow, because the RZ-2 doesn't just have thew rear fire arc, it also has Heroic and Optics, two upgrades that massively cover up for the weaknesses of 3 agility 2 firepower which rebels can't ever emulate on the RZ-1. So it is, in reality, probably safer to give the RZ-1 a totally unique niche that the RZ-2 can't just emulate but with those upgrades, which giving the RZ-1 a rear arc option would not accomplish, because why not just run it in Resistance which does rear arc As better anyway?

This is why I lean towards the 'RZ-1 config' concept. It creates a really clear distinction between the RZ-1 and RZ-2 in terms of what it is for

In rebels would be able to confidently run 1-3 A-wings as a complement to other things as a sort of 'harrier' ship, rather than a trash blocker/focus engine. Conceptually, "Dogfighter/Harrier support/distruption" is such a delightful place for the A-wing to live, while making it distinct from the RZ-2 even if most A-wing exclusive upgrades were shared, and mirrors the 'I help you' vs 'you help me' thing the rebels and resistance use to differentiate themselves, but ultimately I think 'Most of the time the A-wing offensively does nothing' is a way bigger problem than arc coverage.

Quote

You type long like I do, so we're going to get along great though lol

WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS WORDS 😄 I am trying desperately to edit this down from a 5 page essay and failing.

Ultimately this is all minor nonsense anyway. I am mostly in the 'Give A-wings some guaranteed non-damage value, or an easy way to lock' camp, for a TL;DR, but just hope for more 'fly over' effects as a rad ship theme as a bonus, to summarize my actual desires rather than debate lore bits that aren't even 100% canon anymore!

@dezzmont I will go in order, while trying several of your points together for a concise post. Multi quotes out of the context of their full paragraph framed ideas don't ever seem to read well. Not to mention how you missed their conclusion in favor of interrupting.

Using hyperbole to push your argument and admitting it only shows how weak your case is on a functional level. But it is fun, so why not. Enthusiasm of your kind had been absent since JBR7 left. Can't hurt to have a little

Supership though it may be, you still are not addressing that in the scope of it's design, next to so many other super ships, in the same design space. This was the whole lesson of my earlier posting.

Your next few are all one section so I'll connect them for convenience. The A as an ord carrier is not as worse off, as your already admitted hyperbolic presentation, would make it out to be in comparison to any other ord ship in the Game. Again borrowing the X as an example, X's in the novels could fire off multi shot, multi target, salvos of their torpedoes on timers with burst detonation settings to inflict similar and often greater damage then an A. Honestly to some hilariously Anime like levels in some sources. Y's, similarly so. Both these other fighters were also used as raiders, and scouts in many sources. We even get one of these raids in R1. So this is not a unique enough quality to emphasize. Though if you would like, perhaps you'd enjoy exploring some deployment trick options? Rear facing guns are something that were very unique to the craft, over the course of it's continued tinkering, so could be selected as they are not a common denominator. Again, in the scope of the games design space to the other Rebel Raiders.

Moving on to the bumping and intimidation which I'll also tie together here. If the semantics of a word choice was your issue with the comment, by all means use whichever you want. The only reason you keep coming back to this is still a hyper focus on your part with Arvel, and the i1. Any ship throughout X-wing's life that had a decent movement and an i1, gets to be labeled a bumper. Simple as that. From Academy pilots through Quadj/bumpers. That's a feature of i1s in general, not the focus of it's theme for the A as a ship. For every Arvel that has flown with Intimidation, many more A's have flown with Crack shot(see below). CS is the one offensive solid thing for the A right now which happily nests into it's Elite theme. At time of this posting, it's even ranked the best upgrade, intimidation by comparison was at 20th place: https://meta.listfortress.com/upgrades? Which also it should be said that if we based all this discussion on tourney data, we'd be remissly ignoring the casual player side that lives on the theme elements you and I both are so eager for. Tourney data can only show you what wins, but hardly and rarely how a player felt about it's thematics. Except for the salt of course lol 😂 . In the future too, please cite any event data you would like to reference for the benefit of any reader.

Onto our coordinate vs Jake case. For starters it is almost half again more expensive to give an i4 a *red* coordinate with an upgrade in Squad Leader, then it was to make the jump from an i1 Pheonix to Jake by itself. That's just how good coordinate is, that it's so expensive to even grant a red one to the bar. Coordinate shenanigans were so bad they were some of the first things to go up in price in updates we've had. As I said, cheap AdvSen for a whole squad was really strong. Focus was a nice fall back for a choice. But being able to pull tricks like put up a blocker with an action, get a block, then post move coordinate it out of contact, in to link, get shots against no mods, and so on, were very powerful turns. Jake is allowed to continue at his cheap price because with out decent synergy he can't pull the same shenanigans. He's not in any coordinators spot. He's the budget option for support because his ability isn't anywhere as good in versatility. Coordinate is a more valuable ability. Hence why it comes at a premium. That's just fact. The Sheathipede early days made AP-5 bump himself out of the S rank range he was so good, and ended up taking must of coordinate sources with him. Jake just happen to be an okay other way to get something back and we settled for it. It is still pretty good after all. Never denied that.

Price and 'trash'status is next if I'm not missing anything, apologies if so. It's hard to sort through the pile a bit with all the seperate quote boxes and all. With respect you do realize you're trying to compare a on one hand the A to a TIE with no shields, less health overall, no upgrade bar to speak of, no linked actions, a lesser action bar overall, and a worse dial by a good bit. And on the other hand to a ship that still has less agility, still not a single link action, and one of the actions they share is red, nevermind the still huge difference in the Bar, and a worse dial by miles. My good dude, you could not have found better oranges to compare with your A-wing is for Apple. At least try and compare it to a Squint or something even close. You did eventually do this though so, I guess you got around to it.

Onto lore call out. Which is actually quite fine because the game does very often dip back. Even getting to recanonize things at times. From the X-wing article 'A Bertriak "Screamer" sensor jammer provided additional defense by scrambling the sensors of enemy starfighters and homing warheads.[3]' from article https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-65B_X-wing_starfighter which also had the bits about it's crazy targeting and sensors nonsense for fun. Always a hoot. Yup, totally had jammers. You were the one who said you didn't want to keep discussing this item in your conclusion though so, not really sure why you had this bit there.

Okay finally, (lol, high five we made it! 😆 ) We can get into this conclusion, which is in a roundabout way where we get to a crux of it. And your so close to getting my point too. All the other interceptors bros you mention do have that augment of making a 2atk actually matter, yes, sometimes through a combination of items. As I pointed out earlier, we already got Crack shot, and an extra elite slot, and a missile. So off to a good start foundation wise. Just getting the higher init aces which are undoubtedly probably already at the printers and were done being designed a year plus ago, will be another item to getting that psuedo-3atk to stick. Now you just need a threat bubble. This was a problem back in 1e too with the old /x1. So much so it's fix just became it's ability in 2e. For the RZ-2 they aptly put down it's second arc, which doesn't need to modify it's gun stat at all, it just doubles it's range one threat zone, and then they let it fly hard. Then the core rule of range did the rest. It's really quite clever, I have to hand it to them. The -1 could well have been planned to actually get that arc treatment well before you and I discussed it here actually. I wouldn't be surprised if they held it back in the edition change just so the -2 had a few years to sell. Might've even been sitting on the B's foils too, realistically

And don't fret too much over the length thing. Pretty sure folk left a long time ago. Just us hanging out now I'd wager. Maybe in the future though we do the forum a solid and not go with the multi quotes thing eh? Just pick a point and we'll get to the others later. But that's our 2n2, so I'm good.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along. Lol 😜

On 8/28/2020 at 5:46 PM, gamblertuba said:

But the fluff and the hilarity are worth it I think. Should be free too. And they still need to be a couple points cheaper.

Yuusssssssss.

A-wing configs!!

Broken/stuck toggle turrets for the win!

"Sorry, Hobby....my cannons are jammed to the rear... Guess I'll just be shooting Prockets today..."

@Bucknife . As much as I want to see that happen, I dont think that is best for the ship. That encroaches onto the design space of the RZ-2. I do think that a config is a good idea, but not to give it a turret. If the RZ-1 were to have a turret mechanic (which personally, I don't see happening), I think that it should come in the form of a pilot ability. If it was a pilot ability it would represent the uniqueness of the upgrade, as canonically the swivel cannons were an aftermarket mod on the RZ-1. I definitely think there should be a way for it to stress the pilot and get jammed as well.

The best way to do this is start small, and change little things. Start by adding a sensor slot, and dropping the points. Then more pilots, and maybe a ship specific talent.

I personally think that a ship specific talent is a good way to represent the high pilot skill required to fly the ship. It would represent the teamwork that was necessary to take down larger prey, ect...

Please excuse me, whilst i practice the ancient art of necromancy.

My proposal for the RZ-1 Specific sensor is as followed:

“After you execute a manuver, you may choose one enemy ship at range 0-1. You may either assign that ship a jam token, or lock it”.

The wording is a bit clunky, but I think the idea is somewhat sound???

52 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

My proposal for the RZ-1 Specific sensor is as followed:

“After you execute a manuver, you may choose one enemy ship at range 0-1. You may either assign that ship a jam token, or lock it”.

The wording is a bit clunky, but I think the idea is somewhat sound???

Action-less jam is not cool. C1-10P has proven that to me. The lack of "fully" after "execute a maneuver" always raises my hackles. Also, it is free action economy which needs to stay dialed back unless we want major power creep. Executing a maneuver and getting free lock is essentially stress-less Push the Limit. If you want to do a jam, have it add the jam action to the action bar.

Summoning @ClassicalMoser with a hardy "They just need to drop in points." He has said it several times, and I agree. New pilots wouldn't hurt, but dropping the I1 to 27 and the I3 to 29 would likely be good enough.

Fair, but if you have to pay to fill the sensor slot, it isn't free.

I'll say for the record that I think cost is the main issue here. But I also want higher initiative pilots with cool abilities. I'm OK w/ two attack dice. It's not a heavily armed ship. But at the cost they're going for, a ship that puts out 2-3 damage a game is hard to put into a list.

I don't think cost is the main issue, I think it is more that the ecosystem is absurdly unkind to 2 red-3 green single modders, because you are either doing no damage to a large portion of the meta on most attacks, or are not defensively modding and thus losing out on the main defensive advantage of the 3 green.

That said, better action economy that is as unconditional as 'just get close to em' isn't the way to go either, at the very least I would make that sensor require passing through the target or being at range 0. I think this has been a problem among MANY ships in X-wing, and a design goal of quite a few of the upgrades seems to be 'make inconsistent ships have consistent results' and just constantly reducing the price of every single piece in the game unable to contend with very defensive ships isn't a viable long term balancing philosophy, which is why a few rather scary upgrades to people who survived 1.0 are coming out: If a ship can't accomplish anything until its points reach farcical levels, your only options are to give everything absurd action economy, or create effects that bypass defenses on some level.

I am more optimistic about Starbird Slash making the RZ-1 a thing than say... a 2 point drop, for perspective. A 2 point drop doesn't change the fact the ship very frequently will not accomplish anything vs Boba or droid swarms. Starbird Slash does. Obviously past a certain dropped price point you basically can tape missiles onto it and solve some problems, but then the difficulty getting locks is its own issue and you still often get completely blown out by swarms.

I dunno. There have been a few not-too-bad Baron of the Empire lists since the adjustment. Seeing A-Wings at least as good as that is, well, probably enough.

Not going to be Nantex-good, but who wants that? So long as someone can play them and be not-a-chump, that's great.

45 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

I don't think cost is the main issue

Cost is always the main issue.

When some inherent NPE factor isn't in play, the only thing making something oppressive or garbage is that it's costed poorly. There's no case that the RZ-1 presents any inherent NPE factors. The problem is pricing, nothing less, nothing more. It's abysmal and has been since the launch of 2.0. Doesn't stop me from playing them anyway, but it does stop me from doing well with them.

46 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

I am more optimistic about Starbird Slash making the RZ-1 a thing than say... a 2 point drop, for perspective.

If I'm remotely accurate in my prediction Starbird Slash will be about as effective as Saturation Salvo on arrival; it will be priced for an imaginary best-case scenario, and the RZ-2 will always make it unaffordable for the RZ-1 since it gets straight-up better use out of the same points. If Starbird Slash were an effective fix, Intimidation should have been as well, and... it certainly hasn't. I run my RZ-1s with intimidation exclusively, but it's a point too expensive to be worthwhile and the RZ-1 is two points too expensive to be worthwhile. Together that makes the entire cost of intimidation so it doesn't add up. Starbird Slash would just be more of the same, unless it comes out at 1 point in which case it will be absolutely busted and disgusting on the RZ-2 and will get over-nerfed, leading to the same situation anyway.

I think it will be cool but it absolutely won't be the fix the RZ-1 needs. It just needs to be cheaper.

6 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Summoning @ClassicalMoser with a hardy "They just need to drop in points."

They just need to drop in points.

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I dunno. There have been a few not-too-bad Baron of the Empire lists since the adjustment. Seeing A-Wings at least as good as that is, well, probably enough.

The adjustment occurred really recently, and in the last month the Baron of the Empire has only seen play in reported lists on metawing 7 times, and it only did reasonably well in 4 of those 7 tournaments, with the 3 where it did poorly it did REALLY poorly. In 2 of the 4 tournaments where it preformed well it was simply a filler ship in a 'semi-aces+vader' list, something that isn't exactly realistic for the A-wing to do because it doesn't have fantastic candidates to fly along side as an I3 'ace' vs swarm lists.

While it is true that not everything should be Nantex-Good, I think it is fair to say despite the fact that the price point for the baron is very silly, it may not make a meta-splash at all long term as a full list. It seems more to have just allowed empire to go from 3 aces to 4, with the condition that they lose the initiative on more 'pure' aces.

2 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The adjustment occurred really recently, and in the last month the Baron of the Empire has only seen play in reported lists on metawing 7 times, and it only did reasonably well in 4 of those 7 tournaments, with the 3 where it did poorly it did REALLY poorly. In 2 of the 4 tournaments where it preformed well it was simply a filler ship in a 'semi-aces+vader' list, something that isn't exactly realistic for the A-wing to do because it doesn't have fantastic candidates to fly along side as an I3 'ace' vs swarm lists.

I think there's a fair point brought up here in that many of these ships are pushed out just because aces are so stinking good (and rebels don't have any).

I do think rebels need aces. I don't think that will fix the RZ-1.

The problem with aces is the same as the problem with the RZ-1. They're priced wrong. Especially the I5+ force aces; Kylo, Obi-Wan, and Plo Koon have been really really strong for a long time. Maybe I'm biased to think the imps are close to right now that Whisper, Duchess, and 5bro gunner got hit again, but time will tell. Push on the aces just a little more and something will give.

But that still won't fix the RZ-1. It just needs to be cheaper.

3 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The adjustment occurred really recently, and in the last month the Baron of the Empire has only seen play in reported lists on metawing 7 times, and it only did reasonably well in 4 of those 7 tournaments, with the 3 where it did poorly it did REALLY poorly. In 2 of the 4 tournaments where it preformed well it was simply a filler ship in a 'semi-aces+vader' list, something that isn't exactly realistic for the A-wing to do because it doesn't have fantastic candidates to fly along side as an I3 'ace' vs swarm lists.

"It's been a month, and they're already blowing the doors off of A-Wings" is another way of phrasing this.

How dare you ninja me, you dastardly ninja!

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Cost is always the main issue.

There are 5 ways to buff an under-preforming option in a game: You can reduce the opportunity cost of the option (Reducing the points cost), you can introduce more synergy to the option (starbird slash, for example), you can buff things that help the option (Ion missiles going down in price), you can nerf the things that prey upon the option (Raising the price of Boba and droids), or you could change core rules (Like the change to the number of tokens required to affect large ships with many control effects).. X-wing hasn't been, and shouldn't be, purely balanced by trying to fiddle faddle with the base cost of a chasis until it sees play, because that ignores what is actually happening at the table and why things are struggling.

A good example of where something other than a points buff really helped a ship out without (entirely) depending on price bumps was the Jumpmaster gaining a canon slot. That single change meant the ship got to see a respectable amount of play as a rather powerful off-meta ship that probably wouldn't have happened with just the points buff alone unless they went with an extremely wacky price for a 9 health large that let you fly 5. Sure, the points drop was very important, but most of the chatter about that ship was about how clever it was giving them that slot because it solves a really big problem with the ship that was holding it disproportionately bad. I think the lack of ability to meaningfully affect the outcome of a game due to it struggling to do anything proactive vs many types of lists is a similar problem facing the A-wing that probably more needs a fix in giving it more capabilities than just dropping the points, especially because the A-wings that already do have proactive abilities do see play, so even though there is a better ship that can take the upgrade, in some ways that ship 'needs' it less than the RZ-1.

I have no doubt in my mind that the RZ-1 won't become meta or overtake the RZ-2 because of that upgrade, but it offers a solution to a problem 2 dice 3 defense ships have, and which the RZ-2 already has a solution for in the form of Optics and Heroic. The difference between 'no positive impact on your turn vs some' is infinitely larger than going from some impact to a bit more. The RZ-2 already has solved the problem of the general zero impact a 2 red 3 green ship has in a game, but the RZ-1 hasn't, so tools that go to both do in fact help both even though the RZ-2 'started better.'

Again, don't get me wrong, a price decrease probably is in the A-wing's future, and cost should probably be the first place people look when something is doing poorly, but I don't think that alone is going to do much in a meta where the main opponents you are going to face down take out the A-wing with only 60 points worth of offensive firepower and only lose 3 points worth of health on average when shot at, unless FFG pushes the big red button and drops them to something like 25 points (Which would make them comparable to the TIE/Fo, which is the only 'vanilla' 2 red 3 green ship doing anything in the meta without a massive support tool like Sloane right now). This doesn't seem like the optimal outcome and just kicks the problem down the road.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The problem with aces is the same as the problem with the RZ-1. They're priced wrong

I think there is some truth to that, but I also thing the design of some aces aren't great because they push the minimum damage output of lists a bit too high. I think the sin here with aces is too much defensive power concentrated on too few ships.

I think the actual 'solution' for the A-wing is going to be an 'everything but core rules change' situation (though I don't think I would be sad if the core rules for force changed), in part because this isn't JUST an A-wing problem, and in part because its only a matter of time before another Whisper or Boba or whatever comes out. It also just... isn't fun to fly a ship that misses most of its attacks or blows up despite being 'dodgy' depending on how you spend its focus, which probably matters more to a lot of the people complaining about the RZ-1 than its actual level of power than you might think, compared to the fact that dead turns and blankouts on a ship you are emotionally attached to doesn't feel good.

Part of what is going to interest me about Starbird Slash if it is going to be enough of an 'emotional buff' regardless of if the RZ-1 goes 'meta' enough to make the 'plz buff RZ-1 threads stop.' Because if the RZ-1 gets to 'do stuff' on its turns vs very hard to hurt ships, even if it doesn't win a lot of tournaments, that might be enough. Part of the problem is the 'feel' of the RZ-1 can just be plain old bad.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I do think rebels need aces

I agree. Most of the arguments on 'why rebels can't have good aces' ring hollow now that Republic exists and the 'ace meta' is at a point where giving an ace one bonus action from a support ship being 'too spooky' is sorta a joke, compared to the 5 native actions most good aces get.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

"It's been a month, and they're already blowing the doors off of A-Wings" is another way of phrasing this.

The RZ-1 has been used twice as often and more succesfully than the BOTE purely because of Jake's ability to create value regardless of his personal firepower contribution, and Arvel's ability to more consistently do damage via intimidation and mod denial (most importantly, at range 0 vs a focused Boba, he is more than twice as effective as a regular A-wing at range 1 without an intimidate, and is obviously far more points effective than 'losing' 1 A-wing's attack to give another the intimidate). Obviously they are doing way better than generic RZ-1s, but blowing the doors (Canopy?) off the generic RZ-1 is in no way an accomplishment to write home about.

This indicates the problem is less 'points' and more 'the ship in most matchups does nothing but give your opponent 30 points' and that more capabilities to the chasis at its core WOULD help the ship, which tracks: The RZ-1 isn't fundementally that different from most other naked ace platforms, but those platforms tend to have abilities that allow them to actually accomplish something in a match despite their guns being weaker by default, such as force, a 3 damage bullseye, or an advanced targeting computer, or slot into another existing concept very well.

4 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Part of what is going to interest me about Starbird Slash if it is going to be enough of an 'emotional buff' regardless of if the RZ-1 goes 'meta' enough to make the 'plz buff RZ-1 threads stop.' Because if the RZ-1 gets to 'do stuff' on its turns vs very hard to hurt ships, even if it doesn't win a lot of tournaments, that might be enough. Part of the problem is the 'feel' of the RZ-1 can just be plain old bad.

I do agree with this. This is also why it needs more pilots. No I5-6 is just a feelsbad for the poor RZ-1. My only point was that at a fundamental level it doesn't fix the A-Wing in terms of making it actually perform better.

I'm skeptical of a lot of slot/config ideas I've seen. I wouldn't horribly mind a trainer version if it came with a significant downside (lose vectored thrusters, -1 agility, increase difficulty of turn maneuvers, or something similar), and a "Spearhead" or "Early War A-Wing" that trades off some maneuverability for hull and/or firepower seems kind of interesting, but those are sort of fringe options and shouldn't affect the base chassis. Stuff like a rotating arc, a sensor slot, a second missile, or the reload action would change the way the RZ-1 plays at a very deep level that just seems thematically incorrect to me. I think it feels right where it's at, it just costs too much.

9 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The RZ-1 has been used twice as often and more succesfully than the BOTE purely because of Jake's ability to create value regardless of his personal firepower contribution, and Arvel's ability to more consistently do damage via intimidation and mod denial.

That doesn't mean the RZ-1 is okay. It means that Jake is okay. Jake gets little value from the chassis he's on and would be used a similar amount if he were a headhunter pilot. He really isn't representative of the chassis any more than Soontir is of the Interceptor (which is finally doing okay).

11 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

This indicates the problem is less 'points' and more 'the ship in most matchups does nothing but give your opponent 30 points' and that more capabilities to the chasis at its core WOULD help the ship, which tracks: The RZ-1 isn't fundementally that different from most other naked ace platforms, but those platforms tend to have abilities that allow them to actually accomplish something in a match despite their guns being weaker by default, such as force, a 3 damage bullseye, or an advanced targeting computer, or slot into another existing concept very well.

See, in the examples above, the issue is still cost. The TIE Interceptor was an "Ace Platform" that had no value whatsoever at 34 points base. Now at 31 it's a very decent filler piece to draw attacks or else provide some nice 3-dice attacks. Win-win. The TIE Advanced still struggles for a place since its cost doesn't let it contribute enough without PS or FCS, both of which reduce its defensive mods. Weird balance to strike, but they're still generally a little better off than the RZ-1.

I'll play the devil's advocate and say the RZ-1 really does have "abilities that allow them to actually accomplish something in a match despite their guns being weaker by default," namely: lot of blue, vectored thrusters, and double talents. These bring a few strengths:

1) A highly-maneuverable I1 blocker. I1 is fantastic for blocking vulture swarms, among other things. Guaranteed move-first if you have even 1-2 points of bid vs swarms, and extreme repositioning and stress-shedding really helps you be where you have to or just denying area.

2) Playing into the above, an I1 Intimidation carrier. Intimidation grows in value as the initiative goes down. Intimidation is the only value I've really gotten out of A-Wings, and I think it's quite comparable to starbird slash, except it lasts the full round instead of just one attack. 3 points is a bit steep for what you get but it can consistently generate offensive results.

3) Double-talent I3 for Snap/Juke, Crack/Predator, Daredevil/Intimidation, or other combos that most ships simply can't carry at all. Again a lot of talents are priced steeply and the steep cost of the naked RZ-1 doesn't help that. That doesn't mean there's no value proposition, just that you're not getting what you pay for it.

4) Missile slot is actually relevant now more than ever. A 3-agility ship that takes a lock early either draws early fire off your centerpieces which is great, or gets extra firepower late which is even better. At a cheap enough cost the risk would be worthwhile. It's not quite there though. There's a lot of spike damage potential now that Prockets are down to 6, and there are probable options on the horizon now that thread tracers seem to be coming back soon.

38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I do agree with this. This is also why it needs more pilots. No I5-6 is just a feelsbad for the poor RZ-1. My only point was that at a fundamental level it doesn't fix the A-Wing in terms of making it actually perform better.

While I agree no A-wing ace is bad feels, I think the fundemental fix the A-wing needs is to actually have table impact more consistently.

38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Stuff like a rotating arc, a sensor slot, a second missile, or the reload action would change the way the RZ-1 plays at a very deep level that just seems thematically incorrect to me.

I am not a fan of the rotating arc, second missile, or reload action. The sensor slot speaks to me more because it is a fundemental game changer to how the ship operates as a low initiative missile platform that makes it harder for it to be trivially I-killed before firing a single missile vs aces, which is a big problem with it as a missile ship. It also does have some thematic backing as the ship was used a lot as a scout ship, and most of the sensors the A-wing can use 'fit' the ship, such as collision detector or FCS. FCS also does something for the ship if it can get a lock early, which is to let it consistently defensive and offensively mod on the cheap, which would also be a big game changer for the ship.

38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

That doesn't mean the RZ-1 is okay. It means that Jake is okay. Jake gets little value from the chassis he's on and would be used a similar amount if he were a headhunter pilot. He really isn't representative of the chassis any more than Soontir is of the Interceptor (which is finally doing okay).

I agree Jake doesn't get a lot of value from the chasis (Arvel does though, and Arvel seems to be doing work as intimidate-Arvel actually reduces the power of Boba defensively quite a lot without sacrificing firepower in your list if you pull it off), its more that the big thing holding the chasis back is the lack of game impact. Jake's ability is good, but it isn't super crazy, and yet its such a big game changer that it actually makes the overall package good. Sure, the A-wing does diddly on offense most turns if your flying to keep the thing alive, but at least that diddly is coming with something that makes you more likely to win the game.

38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

See, in the examples above, the issue is still cost. The TIE Interceptor was an "Ace Platform" that had no value whatsoever at 34 points base. Now at 31 it's a very decent filler piece to draw attacks or else provide some nice 3-dice attacks. Win-win.

The difference between 2 dice and 3 dice offensively is very large when defenders have consistent modding. The TIE-Interceptor is twice as effective offensively as the RZ-1 vs Boba at range 1 for example, and at range 2 (assuming Boba is getting re-rolls from other ships) it is 6 times as effective. The TIE-Advanced-X definitely isn't anyone's first pick for a naked swarm, but it has seen more play than naked A-wings. Again, this is not a massive accomplishment, because both of these ships have devastatingly low play on their generics, but its worth noting, and I suspect the Taxi would see more play proportionaly if the faction didn't have a better 'out of the box' naked generic that doesn't have a hoop to jump through to get the crit on top of the 3 red.

38 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'll play the devil's advocate and say the RZ-1 really does have "abilities that allow them to actually accomplish something in a match despite their guns being weaker by default," namely: lot of blue, vectored thrusters, and double talents.

Intimidation isn't really doing much to support the chasis right now, both because of the fact it generally means sacrificing 32 points to your opponent for a one turn advantage. It mostly has seen play exclusively on Arvel in the last 8 months, and only has seen play on the generic A-wing in 10 lists, compared to the 300 times it was used.

The upshot of Starbird on Intimidate is that it is more 'guarenteed' at low initiative than intimidate, and it exposes your ship to far less risk both because you don't need to generally be in front of your opponent's list after using it, and because you can mod after using it. It is weaker 'wide' and stronger 'tall' if we are imagining it also priced at 3 points. I am not saying intimidate A-wings are terrible unless they are Arvel, but its another big hint the chasis more needs more functionality because the difference in power between the two is so stark: The ability to get that shot in vs not is dramatically overshadowing a 5 point price difference about 10 times over in play rate.

Missiles are more interesting because they also solve the 'lack of impact' bit, and if any purely points change fix were to 'land' I think it would have to do with missile A-wings. I found most of my success with the A-wing using homing missiles, both because it 'forces' the 1 damage and lets me hold the lock so I can use focuses on future turns defensively while still trying to threaten damage, not flying a full list of them, but using two of them while maintaining a core brawling list. It wasn't super consistent, but it might work a bit better if there were more points to play with for the core list, because right now sacrificing 68 points for that is really questionable. The issue is that right now the main 'budget' missile is the ion missile, so people might not be a fan of a ton of those showing up in one list getting spammed.

Double talents is going to always be a joke unless FFG changes their talent pricing philosophy holistically. While I am hopeful that these new upgrades intended to address long standing meta issues might be priced aggressively, I am not holding my breath for juke-snap to come down, despite wanting that combo to work so bad, despite the fact that Juke-Snap isn't... even good (Vs a Boba with re-rolls it literally is only .4 damage). This is definitely a spot where 'buffing the stuff that could synergize with the A-wing' would help a lot, but people get mad when you mention Snap-Shot is actually garbage and probably should cost half as much as it does, so I tend to not bring that up.

Again, I can't stress enough a big issue is the points, but something sprinkled on top (Better missile options, better talent options, better pilots) probably needs to happen to actually solve the 'core issue' here: You can force the A-wing to be 'good' by making it a TIE/Fo equivaelent and cramming it down to 25 points, but if it isn't fun and doesn't fit the mental image people have of A-wings it isn't gunna matter, which is why soooooomething to do with aspects other than points is probably needed. That would solve the issue for people who care about seeing them in the tournament meta (Who are heckin valid, even if that isn't my main dog in this fight!) but fails to address other issues such as gamefeel and fantasy.

We are really talking about two different problems here pretending to be one problem, but I also suspect points would be less helpful for the 'make the list have a better competitive performance' problem than one might expect, regardless of how it doesn't address the 'I don't like my favorite ship either constantly missing or being a glorified coordinator' problem.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

The RZ-1 has been used twice as often and more succesfully than the BOTE purely because of Jake's ability to create value regardless of his personal firepower contribution, and Arvel's ability to more consistently do damage via intimidation and mod denial (most importantly, at range 0 vs a focused Boba, he is more than twice as effective as a regular A-wing at range 1 without an intimidate, and is obviously far more points effective than 'losing' 1 A-wing's attack to give another the intimidate). Obviously they are doing way better than generic RZ-1s, but blowing the doors (Canopy?) off the generic RZ-1 is in no way an accomplishment to write home about.

This indicates the problem is less 'points' and more 'the ship in most matchups does nothing but give your opponent 30 points' and that more capabilities to the chasis at its core WOULD help the ship, which tracks: The RZ-1 isn't fundementally that different from most other naked ace platforms, but those platforms tend to have abilities that allow them to actually accomplish something in a match despite their guns being weaker by default, such as force, a 3 damage bullseye, or an advanced targeting computer, or slot into another existing concept very well.

I'm not talking about Jake, I'm never talking about Jake, and I've said that nearly every time.

EVERYBODY KNOWS that the deal is rotten Jake is solid, and Arvel is viable too.

People just want to be able to fly generic A-Wings without being FORKING IDIOTS. Not revolutionize the entire concept of X-Wing. Just be OK.

I get that you've got a lot of opinions about 2 red dice and 3 highly modded green dice. But points clearly fix the issue of generic A-Wings being UTTER TRASH compared to EVERY OTHER SIMILAR SHIP.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But points clearly fix the issue of generic A-Wings being UTTER TRASH compared to EVERY OTHER SIMILAR SHIP

What other similar ship is seeing play right now that doesn't have some way to handle the 2 red situation?

The only one I see is the FO, which hits the 25 point break point, which is the main reason it works as a generic 2 red 3 green ship. Everything else in the meta has a way to either stack mods or get more consistent value in some way above and beyond what that statline would suggest.

So I suppose if you really wanted to make the A-wing not trash compared to 'similar ships' you would push it down to the 25 point break point.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

People just want to be able to fly generic A-Wings without being FORKING IDIOTS. Not revolutionize the entire concept of X-Wing. Just be OK.

People want a lot of things and feel a lot of different ways about similar issues and similar concerns. I get that to you you just want points, but other people care about the ship's 'feel' being bad. I have talked to many of these people. Both problems could be fixed, it isn't a 'caring about one or the other' situation.

It isn't exactly 'revolutionizing X-wing' to say 'hey, ships that only roll 2 attack and 3 defense and can't stack mods tend to do really poorly regardless of their price point unless you can run 8 of them. Maybe to make ships that have 2 attack and 3 defense workable we should look at why they aren't able to get stuff done regardless of other aspects of their ship' or to notice solutions that aren't just points buffs have worked in the past.

3 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

Vs a Boba with re-rolls

Boba is rough on RZ-1s. Every single practical example you used Boba though, which seems a bit of an overreaction. 3-agility force aces also create a problem, but on the flipside, 3-4 defensive green dice on the A-Wing have been largely overlooked as presenting the very real advantage they do. 2-primaries still do have a place though. 2-primaries that are doing well right now:

• RZ-2

• TIE/fo

• TIE/sa (most versions throw 2 most of the time)

• TIE/ag

• Scyk (most versions throw 2 most of the time)

• Nantex

• Torrent (this is a big deal)

• Vulture

• Hyena

If 2-primaries were inherently irrelevant none of these would be bringing much to the table. Some of these are good for plinking. Some are good blockers. Some have good time on target, some have special tricks. Some are just dirt cheap. The RZ-1 has a little of each except for the dirt cheap bit.

Why should Intimidation be better on Arvel than anyone else? A ship that's both cheaper and lower initiative should rather get better than worse use out of Intimidation. Losing a blocker in one round because it blocked is ... a rather ridiculous assumption. You don't usually use Arvel in 1 round when he blocks. Either you're blocking alone and they're not shooting back, or you're blocking a group and you get to shoot too. I don't see the problem here. The Phoenix is basically the best-use-case for Intimidation if it weren't for the excessive price. What could possibly be better?

9 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

I get that to you you just want points, but other people care about the ship's 'feel' being bad.

I just don't buy it. What else should the RZ-1 "Feel" like? We don't see it blowing things up much in the movies or shows... it's kind of a "float like a buttefly, sting like a butterfly" sort of deal. You use it for maneuvering, harrassment, etc. In the hands of an ace it can do great work. Generics get the most use out of blocking, talents, and missiles. None of this seems to call for a sensor slot, and it doesn't seem right either. Passive Sensors doesn't seem right on an A-Wing, and something like Advanced Sensors seems almost ridiculous. The TIE Aggressor and Jumpmaster were also scout ships (the only other two in the game as far as I'm aware) and they don't have a sensor slot. I would say they don't need it either.

I care more about 2-primaries being "good" or at least usable than I care about what the RZ-1 feels like in the larger context. If there are things making a focused 2-primary utterly obsolete, that thing should be pushed toward the edge of the meta. There's a case this is true and that it hasn't been pushed on enough. That's really a separate issue though.

Besides, the TIE Aggressor and the TIE Bomber are doing very well now, even without their signature upgrades. They're affordable and kind of beefy support ships. Aggressors have a lot of time-on-target with a dorsal turret too. Guess what that costs? 28. And the Scimitar bomber is 27. It doesn't have to magically hit the 25 breakpoint to be worthwhile. Besides, we're arguing for 27 which is awfully close to that anyway. It would be a great ship in its current state at 27. 25 it would be utterly busted.

3 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The only one I see is the FO, which hits the 25 point break point, which is the main reason it works as a generic 2 red 3 green ship. Everything else in the meta has a way to either stack mods or get more consistent value in some way above and beyond what that statline would suggest.

Except that's utter nonsense. TIE/fo sees play in a bunch of squads that don't come even close to the 25 breakpoint.

Is it inflated because it's the cheapest ship in the faction? Probably, but the A-Wing would be the cheapest ship in Rebel Hyperspace .

27/29 P/G. That's it. Done. A-Wings are OK. Great? Probably not. But like, that's a huge difference on a cheap ship.

8 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

People want a lot of things and feel a lot of different ways about similar issues and similar concerns. I get that to you you just want points, but other people care about the ship's 'feel' being bad. I have talked to many of these people. Both problems could be fixed, it isn't a 'caring about one or the other' situation.

Except, it kinda is.

A-Wings aren't the only 2 / 3 ship out there. An A-Wing specific fix for that, but not for the other ships, doesn't really improve the status quo. It leaves all the other similar ships in the lurch. An "A-Wing fix" that solves 2/3 for the A-Wing only would be a jerk move.

So the things have to be addressed separately.

So A-Wings just need to be cheaper.

It's really not that complicated.