3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A-Wings just need to be cheaper.

It's really not that complicated.

Bears repeating.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If 2-primaries were inherently irrelevant none of these would be bringing much to the table

I want to be specific and note most of those aren't 'generic' 2R primaries and all of them have some way to get 'past' the limitation of their offensive power.

The RZ-2 has heroic and optics, which raise the damage floor. On top of that, RZ-2s have a lot of named characters that push it out of the generic space anyway. TIE/Fo and the Torrent work as generic 2 reds. This means at the very least the RZ-1 could probably be forced to work as a 25 point ship, but I don't think that is likely especially as they very clearly are 'better' than the Torrent, but maybe getting close and letting them run as a 'sidepiece swarm' to something could work. TIE/Sa mostly run missiles, specifically barrage rockets, which are downright better than 3 red obviously. A few don't and work out, but they are also packing bombs, which force them to have some damage relevance for obvious reasons. TIE/ag see almost no play in the current meta from what I am looking at. It has been used in 8 tournaments in the last 9 months and it tends to do really poorly unless its on a Sloane list. Generally is in the bottom 50%. I am no expert though, and it seems likely you know something I don't! The Scyk rolls 2 dice when trying to do damage, but tends to be flown for the force multiplier effect of tractor beams, allowing impact in the form of mixing control and distruption with increasing the consistency of the swarm's fire, and the fire of any aces they bring. The Nantex has a 3 red on bullseye, and obviously also has the ace capabilities on most swarm lists. This is especially big because it can get that delicious 4 red crack shot range 1. Finally, the vulture and Hyena obviously can mod 'optimally' every turn when in formation, meaning they never have to sacrifice offense for defense or vice versa.

Some of these are better than others, but there seems to be a consistent theme of needing something on top of the 2 red single mod, be it tractoring for their buddies, secretly having a way to get 3 red, or basically treating the focus result as a hit/evade at all times until you generate more than ships in your list.

The A-wing could get that in a few ways (again, you are right that finding a really clutch high value missile would help a lot, or there was a rebel equivalent of Howl or Sloane or something that helps out the TIE/Lns), but points alone would probably require it to be priced at torrent/FO tier, simply because missile torrents aren't a thing, so I wouldn't be super optimistic about missile RZ-1s either if they costed more.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I just don't buy it. What else should the RZ-1 "Feel " like ? We don't see it blowing things up much in the movies or shows .. .

If we only cared about the movies and shows, Boba would be some I2 loser with a lame ability, because in the movies he does absolutely nothing cool besides have a cool character design.

The A-wing has a pretty long history in the EU outside of that, which is part of why its such a loved ship that has people clamoring for changes to it in a way they don't really clamor for... I dunno... the G-1A to be fixed. It has this 'elite mystique' to it due to its history as a raiding and scout ship, it was often used by rebels as almost a 'black ops ship.'

Obviously it shouldn't be made super crazy, and I think pushing raw actual damage with its guns isn't a great space for it to be, and if that EU history isn't an important part of its identity to you that is fine and the lovely thing about upgrades is you could in theory buff the points AND make high impact upgrades.

But that is why there is a bit of grumble grumble grumble about it being placed as the rebel's 'cheap filler ship' and so much focus being placed on the points rather than how it actually preforms. Its why a lot of people who are iffy on the state of the RZ-1 also aren't a fan that it is mostly a Jake platform, because Jake isn't exactly bamboozling the enemy as much as helping his buds, and its why Starbird slash feels exciting and on theme to me even if you don't get it: I could 100% imagine a Rogue Squadron Raid or even the old A-wing Slash (which, in hindsight, was a truly silly maneuver but hey it was still cool!) when I imagine that ability in use, in a way that a points change doesn't... really do it for me at all.

We are imagining two subtly different ships based on different experiences with a truly massive 40 year old transmedia product. It isn't that unreasonable that people have sliiightly different views on what a given thing is when the universe doesn't just exist in the movies, but over 450 books, and well over 2000 comic issues, a bunch of videogames, RPGs ect. The odds of us actually sharing a significant overlap in what star wars media we have consumed outside the primary source stuff is actually pretty low, just due to the sheer absurd scale of the universe. And that is fine, and obviously that means the film version takes 'precedent' but its history as this slick scout ship would be also nice to preserve, which is why people who care about that aspect talk about jams (which, again, I agree probably aren't a great idea despite it actually 100% being a thing the A-wing could do to TIE fghters) or sensor slots or slick moves, because that is important to a lot of Star Wars fans just as its important to a lot of fans that say... IG is a cool (set of) character(s) (and i think they are, despite being deeply off meta!), even if that wouldn't be something you assume based on (pre-mandalorian) mainstream Star Wars Media.

If you want a piece of transmedia near and dear to my heart that explains why I am in this camp, check out the D20 starwars games from WoTC! Saga Edition's A-wing literally had special rules for a jamming array that was impossible to mod onto any other ship of its size that allowed it to completely tank the intelligence score (AKA sensors and computer) of small space ships like the TIE. This isn't the first instance where I encounted the 'Blackops A-wing' but it was awesome to be able to play it myself in a game!

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The Phoenix is basically the best-use-case for Intimidation if it weren't for the excessive price. What could possibly be better?

Arvel, unless the phoenix is priced to the point where its actually worth considering losing 3 red dice compared to paying the extra for Arvel because you can get something more valuable than 3 red dice into your list with those points.

That said, there is no reason the phoenix couldn't be priced down so that it makes more sense to use both Arvel and a Phoenix. It is just clear that having usable abilities that amplify the impact of a ship can have a greater impact on a ship than even relatively big points swings.

It seems to be the case across most lists running intimidation that the extra 3 red dice at range 0 are valued much more highly than an extra 5 points, and it makes sense. You can evaluate the difference between a lone intimidation phoenix and Arvel as you choosing to 'sell' your 3 red dice for only 5 points. The cheapest set of 3 red dice you can get in rebels is currently 24 in extended and 29 in hyperspace, and it doesn't seem to be the case that you would run either of those ships at 0 red for only 19 and 24 points respectively, so it makes sense that this is seen as generally a poor deal and doesn't see a ton of play.

Obviously there is more complexity than that, because if you block you might still get your shot, but your not getting the shot on someone with -1 agility, and you may not even be getting the range 1 bonus, while Arvel is allowing you to effectively get 3.3 dice vs a blocked target assuming it can't passive mod, not just 3.

I do want to reiterate, because this feels like its getting a little nasty, I am still on team 'points change.' I just don't agree that that is the literal only relevant balance tool that could be used here, that doesn't make any sense when no game purely balances under-preforming archetypes and options by reducing their opportunity cost. Again, there are multiple ways to improve things, and I don't understand the insistence that only one way is the absolute right way to do it if it fails to address the more emotional desires of the chasis over the mechanical ones, that again, people have because a LOT of people are talking about different upgrades rather than just bringing the points down.

This is ultimately just a lot of people posting in a very round about way 'hey, I care about this aspect of the ship that wouldn't be served by a points buff' and and while I get your skeptical of that, and have many good points on how this could be served purely by points, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of them. I believe your sincere and they are reasonable conclusions to draw, I don't think there are any dummies in this discussion. I also think the stance 'Hey, I want this ship to be just plain old better doing the things it already does' isn't at all incompatable with the desire for it to do more. This is why upgrade cards are optional, after all, as long as they are priced right!

I also am sensing... I dunno... skepticism? Disbelief multiple people could have a desire outside of a simple increase in points efficiency that would result in people brainstorming stuff involving jams and sensors and target locks, like it is somehow a deception that they view the ship in this way. I think if that is actually happening (and I admit, this may be in my head, but lets be fair FFG's forums can get a bit heated and people have been far less charitable about the validity of other people's emotions here before, so I think its fair for people to be on edge at times!) maybe we can just drop this and agree to disagree if this is just too charged to talk it out, because I don't think its worth it for anyone to feel unhappy or to get bad vibes about other people over something so comically minor.

4 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

the RZ-2 will always make [Starbird Slash] unaffordable for the RZ-1 since it gets straight-up better use out of the same points. If Starbird Slash were an effective fix, Intimidation should have been as well, and... it certainly hasn't. [...] Starbird Slash would just be more of the same, unless it comes out at 1 point in which case it will be absolutely busted and disgusting on the RZ-2 and will get over-nerfed, leading to the same situation anyway.

I'll add: this is almost surely entirely correct about Starbird Slash.

Is there the possibility that it will be different prices for each ship? Thats what I would do if I was in FFG’s shoes. I would make it cost “x” points on an RZ-2 and “y” points on an RZ-1. Where y < x.

Just now, Gupa-nupa said:

Is there the possibility that it will be different prices for each ship? Thats what I would do if I was in FFG’s shoes. I would make it cost “x” points on an RZ-2 and “y” points on an RZ-1. Where y < x.

I don't think so, but this might not matter.

The RZ-2 already has a lot of great upgrade choices to make it have a lot of impact, as well as lots of character choices that likewise do this, so you may not be willing to drop even more points on something that could be cleared just by your opponent committing to fly blue for a turn, rather than be pretty sure your going to roll at least 1 hit every attack and boost your defense on top.

Meanwhile the RZ-1 doesn't have these options to increase its consistency in affecting the match outside of bumps, and intimidate doesn't seem to be 'worth it' right now based on the stats for most RZ-1s. So even though Heroic and Optics are 'preferred' they can't take them, and will settle for the slash.

So even though it has 'more synergy' due to the rear shot allowing you to follow up, it may be that its 'better' on the RZ-1 because its worse than heroic and optics and you don't want to take all 3. This, obviously, isn't great for making the RZ-1 equal to the RZ-2, but it still means there is a possibility the upgrade can be priced at a point where the RZ-1 uses it and the RZ-2 doesn't go crazy with it.

Even if that isn't the case, raising the 'floor' of both ships still helps the RZ-1 if it can find a home in rebel lists (likely due to a points reduction) that would want to run it without entirely switching over to being resistance to use the 'better' A-wing. It isn't entirely zero-sum.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

TIE/Sa mostly run missiles, specifically barrage rockets, which are downright better than 3 red obviously.

This isn't true and hasn't been for quite some time. Some builds do, but the most successful ones have just been naked or bombs, run as beefy sidekicks. No extra offense from their front arcs.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

TIE/ag see almost no play in the current meta from what I am looking at. It has been used in 8 tournaments in the last 9 months and it tends to do really poorly unless its on a Sloane list.

Sloane is a separate issue, but since the last points drop they've actually done very very well, even without her. Their time-on-target is fantastic and they're almost as beefy as the Bomber. If anything, it's proof that a drop of 2 points can make a huge difference to a ship chassis.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

The Scyk rolls 2 dice when trying to do damage, but tends to be flown for the force multiplier effect of tractor beams, allowing impact in the form of mixing control and distruption with increasing the consistency of the swarm's fire, and the fire of any aces they bring.

And this is more like the type of role we're looking for the RZ-1 to move into. Better pricing and talents do this but most other things don't.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

points alone would probably require it to be priced at torrent/FO tier

This is the main point I'm disagreeing with. As you said, the RZ-1 is straight-up "better " than the Torrent or TIE/fo because of its maneuverability and extra talent/missile access. The torrent's maneuverability is horrendous and the TIE/fo has blues but no access to missiles. Neither has boost at all, let alone an always-on free-boost ability. They're both fine at 25 without a talent, surely the RZ-1 would be fine at 27 with. That's all they need.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

the lovely thing about upgrades is you could in theory buff the points AND make high impact upgrades.

I'm fine with this. I just don't want the devs to get away with thinking that making powerful (undepriced) upgrades is a way to get out of fixing points costs. That's what they did with the B-Wing, giving it SSfoils (which I like) for too cheap and not fixing the inherent pricing of cannons (which makes me sad and makes them useless on every other 3-primary). I'm fine with new content. I love new content. But these "Fix" threads always throw out all these weird and OP card ideas or suggestions for all kinds of new slots and abilities that often feel OP even if they weren't off-theme in the first place.

I'm just trying to say that while some of these ideas might be cool, none of them fundamentally "fix" the A-Wing. I love the 2.0 design of the A-Wing. They got it smack-dab in the middle of perfect. More options are cool but fundamental changes aren't. All it needs to work as intended is the correct price, and that's what it's never had in the history of 1.0 or 2.0. This is why I keep pushing for it in the face of all other changes.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

Arvel, unless the phoenix is priced to the point where its actually worth considering losing 3 red dice compared to paying the extra for Arvel because you can get something more valuable than 3 red dice into your list with those points.

Which is exactly the case I'm asking for. Most of the time you'll have someone you're not blocking in arc anyway. If it's truly a 1-on-1 block, you're not getting shot anyway so you're scot free. Even if someone else does have arc on you, you're I1 so you definitely have a focus or evade and their attack won't hurt half as much as the attack on the ship you blocked.

Even without changing intimidation (which I think it should but that's just my opinion man) a 27 point Phoenix with 3-pt Intimidation vs a 37 point intimidating Arvel makes for a pretty interesting decision.

1 hour ago, dezzmont said:

This is why upgrade cards are optional, after all, as long as they are priced right!

And again I agree that those things are cool and interesting but unless the base price changes they don't "fix" the A-Wing, they only "change" it.

To "Fix" the A-Wing, you decrease the points (and maybe add high-I pilots)

16 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And again I agree that those things are cool and interesting but unless the base price changes they don't "fix" the A-Wing, they only "change" it.

I think that is the fundemental disconnect: For you, a price reduction is the critical issue, and while things that change it are nice, they are ancillary, because its far more about being able to fly the ship in any form in a 'meta' way.

But to other people, changing it is a critical issue, and a points reduction is ancillary, because its far more about how the chasis doesn't fit very well with one part of the setting's history.

That is why its weird for it to be pushed that 'all they need is a points change.' Like, its totally valid that is your main concern, but I care a lot less about that than the ship not really fitting with that image of the A-wing as a raider/scout. Luckily, we both likely will be catered to, but insisting its 'just points' sorta misses why people talk about the dodads and whistles that they wish the A-wing had. Its a closely related concern (That are also ultimately aligned, if one of us wins and gets what they want, the other one also wins too, at least to some extent), but its important to not confuse them.

Constantly saying its just points is true for you. It may not be true for everyone else, even if it were to make the RZ-1 the number one ship in metawing!

8 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This is the main point I'm disagreeing with. As you said, the RZ-1 is straight-up "better " than the Torrent or TIE/fo because of its maneuverability and extra talent/missile access. The torrent's maneuverability is horrendous and the TIE/fo has blues but no access to missiles. Neither has boost at all, let alone an always-on free-boost ability. They're both fine at 25 without a talent, surely the RZ-1 would be fine at 27 with. That's all they need.

I certainly can't disagree that in a direct comparison the A-wing is superior. But on the flip side, I've also had more success running a mini-swarm of V-19s than a mini-swarm of RZ-1s.

I love the way the A-Wing flies on the table; but I get more value out of the tools available to ships like the torrent (Sinker, dedicated, synched console, etc.).

3 hours ago, Target_2.0 said:

I certainly can't disagree that in a direct comparison the A-wing is superior. But on the flip side, I've also had more success running a mini-swarm of V-19s than a mini-swarm of RZ-1s.

Of course you have found more success with the V-19s. You're not wasting 2 points a ship with them the way you are on the overpriced A-wings.

At very least, the *first* thing RZ-1s need is a points change. Maybe some new tricks could come down the pike, but anything else they get is going to work better if the ship doesn't start out overpriced.

15 hours ago, dezzmont said:

But to other people, changing it is a critical issue, and a points reduction is ancillary, because its far more about how the chasis doesn't fit very well with one part of the setting's history.

I guess I'm asking why? It's definitely been true for some ships, in two categories:

1. Thematic: The B-Wing upon release, for example, still felt a bit off. It didn't have much reason to carry cannons and didn't feel like the specialized cannoneer that it was. Stabilized S-Foils fixed that. It felt wrong, now it feels right (well, it would if it were baked into the chassis as it should be, and the base chassis cost more, and cannons were cheaper, but it's hard to do that because it's not in the standalone blister which it should have been, grumble grumble you get the point). Some people are disappointed with the YT-2400, which got the 4-primary as a basic ability, that doesn't feel right for Sato's Hammer for example, but was a distinct feature of the Outrider. Maybe we'll get a different version in the future, maybe not. I would still consider that a "Fix."

2. Mechanical: This applies more to upgrades than to ships, but there are ships it certainly does apply to. The first to come to mind is obviously the Nantex. Thematically it's right on point; weird tractor shenanigans at super-close-range, funky turret, just a bug-eyed, off-the-wall ball of strange certainly fits the bug ship. But it makes for huge problems with the game due to inherent NPE. It's hard to balance around because it's just mean. Even if it's not "Good" it's just un-fun. I still think they need to change tractor tokens to "You spend the tokens to move the ship" and raise the base cost of the Nantex, but others vary in opinions on how to fix it. Few people don't think Ensnare Nantex is a problem though. The same goes for the Jumpmaster before it had the cannon slot. It was too much health and board presence to allow it to be very very cheap, but it had so little offense and maneuverability that it was hard to choose it in your list rather than something else. A happy medium seemed unlikely (rather an unhappy medium seemed inevitable, a ship that didn't do anything but be annoying and take forever to die). Then they added a cannon slot and now it plays a lot more fairly. The fixed front guns also weren't represented before the cannon slot came along so there's a good argument that it fixes it thematically as well.

I'm just saying I don't think the A-Wing has a fundamental problem in either of these areas. Thematically, it plays just like an A-Wing plays "an extra little something" like a Jamming array or whatever could be nice as a refit, but isn't by any means a fundamental part of the chassis. It's not in canon anyway, and even in Legends it was fairly obscure and not universally present. Mechanically, the A-Wing is like a much more maneuverable TIE/fo with extra talent and missile slots. A 2-point tax for those things seems totally fair, even a bargain. A 4-point tax for those is just too steep and you're better off flying something else.

15 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Its a closely related concern (That are also ultimately aligned, if one of us wins and gets what they want, the other one also wins too, at least to some extent), but its important to not confuse them.

This isn't true for me. If the A-Wing gets new toys and doesn't get its base points changed, I'll still be disappointed. I don't particularly want it to get new toys. I'm a strictly casual player. I don't care about the meta. But I'm also a strategic player and I try to win when I play. I almost always fly A-Wings when I fly Rebels (my #2 faction after imps) and I almost always feel held back by them. This isn't about being meta. It's about having fun flying what I love without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot. I love the way they fly. I think they feel perfect! I just really, really have a hard time getting them to pull their weight.

New cards won't really fix that unless they're underpriced, and I think under-pricing one card to make up for another card that's over-priced is my biggest pet peeve with the way the game gets balanced. It seems too 1.0 for me. I prefer a diversity of options. I don't want a chardaan refit for my A-Wings. I want them to fly the way they should fly out of the box.

I still wish I had a way to boost THEN roll, but yeah they're def still fun to fly. Couldn't agree more on the B-wing S-foil cost and 2400 guns too by the way.

Side note on tractors, I wish it was treated as a lock token. As in had a originating point who's destruction discards the token, opening up some inter/counterplay through the round. And that the token did nothing until the end of the round for it's effect, or it would go with ion timing and effect your next dial instead with like -2 speed of your maneuver or something.

I haven't read the last like three pages of this thread but if we repeat "Phoenix Squadron Pilots should be 27 points" enough maybe it'll randomly happen

44 minutes ago, svelok said:

I haven't read the last like three pages of this thread but if we repeat "Phoenix Squadron Pilots should be 27 points" enough maybe it'll randomly happen

つ ◕◕ ༽つ Phoenix Squadron Pilots Should Be 27 Points!!!! つ ◕◕ ༽つ

つ ◕◕ ༽つ Phoenix Squadron Pilots Should Be 27 Points!!!! つ ◕◕ ༽つ

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つ ◕◕ ༽つ Phoenix Squadron Pilots Should Be 27 Points!!!! つ ◕◕ ༽つ

Watch, now they drop them to 28 just to spite us. 😆

Hello there.

I partly understand your thoughts but I will take a different path.

I hope for a points reduction. I hope in a dedicated talent. I hope for new pilots.

That said, the A-wings are as good as they are... much better than many of you are claiming.

I agree with @_iaco_ with the dedicated talent. The rz-2 basically has one with heroic, and I don't see anyone using selfless on an rz-1....

I do however feel the FFG should never make a big jump unless it is absolutely necessary. In that I mean, if we see something is really good (or in this case bad), I think that FFG should gradually lower its price and the prices of its most used pieces. Then give it more tools (pilots/upgrades), if it is still a problem. I dislike it when FFG just goes and destroys something with the nerf bat, or something else gets a really big buff.

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つ ◕◕ ༽つ Phoenix Squadron Pilots Should Be 27 Points!!!! つ ◕◕ ༽つ

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つ ◕◕ ༽つ Phoenix Squadron Pilots Should Be 27 Points!!!! つ ◕◕ ༽つ

Phoenix, you shall not pass 27 points!!!

Could dead-eye/marksmanship Phoenix squadrons be good? Dead-eye shot shouldn't be more than 2 points, and it had better be one or it won't get used (cough cough crack-shot cough cough).

38 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

Could dead-eye/marksmanship Phoenix squadrons be good? Dead-eye shot shouldn't be more than 2 points, and it had better be one or it won't get used (cough cough crack-shot cough cough).

Can't run two talents on a phoenix, so it would have to be a green, and that means your paying a 3 point tax for initiative and the talent slots. The A-wing CAN make use of the I3 much better than many ships reposition wise, but not as much I-kill wise, so its weird.

That is 35 points for something that has only 4 health behind 3 defense dice (Which is good but not great if you need to offensively mod on red dice), and which struggles to actually get the crits onto people. You also can only run 5 of them, with a 25 point remainder, which is not ideal for Rebels.

What might work is running them as a 'sidepiece,' especially if you just ditch Marksmanship (which if you don't care about the initiative can be evaluated as 'would you spend 4 points on marksmanship?') and go for deadeye shot alone on a Phoenix, and use it to help other ships while applying some damage itself, rather than trying to make that your entire squad's thing. Your saving a pretty significant amount of points on Thane by ditching 1 red dice (which is a lot) and his initiative, and it would be a decent way to fill out around a 30 point range of spare points, which rebels can struggle to do at times as a whole.

Another option is to put this combo on Jake, who you want to run anyway and who thus eliminates the '3 point tax' element on your second talent slot. This puts him at 39 points, which means you might be able to do something like XXXUA by using some CAZs instead of Blue squad. The downside here is that I-killing is kinda important to beef's plan, but its also a good example of where the combo of a points decrease and new capabilities might help the A-wing be more proactive, because if the A-wing fell by two points overall, including Jake, it would be possible to just run it straight up at I2, which at least means you I-kill droids, and the increased offensive impact of the A-wing due to Dead-Eye and Marksman, combined with the increased health in the list from the U-wing, offsets the downsides of swapping an X-wing for an A-wing.

13 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Another option is to put this combo on Jake, who you want to run anyway and who thus eliminates the '3 point tax' element on your second talent slot.

This is the problem with the RZ-1 right here. Jake will be amazing with the Dead-Eye/Marksmanship in my opinion. I flawn him a bit and his two die fails to matter a lot of the time, but if you can aim the bullseye with a Roll>Focus>Boost and still get two hits while using the Dead-Eye, its gonna be much more potent. But Jake never struggled to do well. Same for Arvel. The problem is the generics area, which has no serious place in the game.

I would really like to see a Talent using the A-Wing as requirement and working with only the front arc. RZ-2s can use it, but not with their rear arc. And RZ-1s will just be able to constantly benefit from it. Maybe something like "If you perform a V-Arc Primary Attack and you are Focused, you can reroll one attack die." It would help with the poor offensive capabilities of the RZ-1 in my opinion.

Phoenix Squadron is 29 points. Baron of the Empire is 28 points. Has in my opinion a better dial and better action economy in my opinion, as it can both Roll and Boost into a Focus. Not to mention it is also I3 instead of the I1.

Take 6 Barons with Crack Shots and FCS and they will eat alive the 6 Phoenix Squadrons with Crack shots and whatever you decide to put on them more. Not to mention you cannot even field 6 Greens with Crack Shot anymore.

Phoenix should be 27 and Green should be 28 or 29 in my honest opinion. The ship ability is cool... But not really. Not on the low Initiative ones at least. If they had the Tie Interceptor ability, able to choose between Roll and Boost, that's another story entirely.

EDIT:

The new talent should be valued based on initiative, because its a Front Arc reroll, which is much better than Predator, not to mention Heroic. But its straight out worse than Heroic. But then again, higher initiative pilots will have it easier to trigger it, as they will have a higher chance to shoot first.

15 hours ago, Gupa-nupa said:

Could dead-eye/marksmanship Phoenix squadrons be good? Dead-eye shot shouldn't be more than 2 points, and it had better be one or it won't get used (cough cough crack-shot cough cough).

Even if they could run two talents, at 31 points (29+1+1), no it wouldn't be good. 34 points for a Green with MMS/DES would also be bad.

A-Wings are just too expensive.