Just needs a configuration slot, so we can get the two seater we see in rebels (crew slot)

edit: so if one configuration is a crew slot, perhaps another should be an option to add the jam action?

6 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

If it's based on Phoenix Squadron, they are more likely to include the ships that appeared in the Rebels TV show.

Getting back to this, sorry dude didn't mean to leave you hanging. That's very true. So an A or two for sure, and the Y would be good thanks to the Rebels show connection to getting the first Ys into the Rebel fleet, and Choppers personal connection to the Y as well. But I still doubt the B. If they every make the alternate paint 'prototype' scheme, it will probably be one of their limited edition ones (ugh, LEs, why doth thee vex me 😑 ). Putting it in the squad box would be weird because you want to have plenty of reason to buy the squad box in multiples, and having a bunch of a one-off paint scheme seems odd. In the same way we don't get the one-off black and orange T-70 in the Resistance box, and it too will probably come back only as an LE.

@Schanez I agree with almost everything you said there. But as Saint already pointed out, there were lore bits of swivel guns on -1s. 👍

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Yeah, gamble abilities can be cool (Ibtisam ARC is wicked under-rated... I used to fly it in 1e as Braylen, and it's kinda nice). I just don't want them for turret-flips on an A-Wing. =D

But wai tho!? Let me give you fun! Embrace the awesome! You know you love it! 😁 😂

Y'know, it also would be kinda neat that all the alphabet ships have a flip config. That would be a neat faction identity. Rebels as the 'transformer/voltron' faction... Don't tell JJ 😐

6 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

In the same way we don't get the one-off black and orange T-70 in the Resistance box, and it too will probably come back only as an LE.

??????

We do get the one-off orange-and-white paint scheme and the one-off green-and-white paint scheme.

Not to mention that Anakin's Aethersprite was also a one-off, and as far as we know Saw's U-Wing was too. That's three out of nine squadron pack paint jobs.

7 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Just needs a configuration slot, so we can get the two seater we see in rebels (crew slot)

edit: so if one configuration is a crew slot, perhaps another should be an option to add the jam action?

I'd love it if A-wing got a configuration with a Trainer (crew slot) on one side and Jammer on the other. I think I saw some suggestions farther up I liked about handing out a jam token to range one after a boost or full maneuver or something like that.

53 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

??????

We do get the one-off orange-and-white paint scheme and the one-off green-and-white paint scheme.

Not to mention that Anakin's Aethersprite was also a one-off, and as far as we know Saw's U-Wing was too. That's three out of nine squadron pack paint jobs.

Were those 70's one off? They looked pretty basic to me. Just squad colored I thought. Anakin's I could see, though it's so generic it doesn't look that weird. Anakin's REAL one off was given to Plo Koon, which did get an LE.

I think the conversation should also be around which role does the A-Wing fit. It has all the ingredients of an Ace (speed of movement including interceptor blues, mod + reposition, double reposition if needed, 3 green dice, etc) but it is lacking two key points to really start doing the job, an extra red die and high Ini pilots. Of course that's on purpose. A wings are thought as a Swarmy missile in and out bunch, but I don't think there are good enough options in the missile department for that, and low ini doesn't really work with that phylosophy.

Just reducing the cost can't be the fix to everything, and I think it really isn't what is going to give generics the boost they might need. I had a lot of success with Jake and Arvell, and also with a generic Ini 1 bumper. The proposed "more pilots" I think is something we really need and love, and also a specific missile thought for A Wings. Reload has been suggested and I think that might be key for the in and out role, maybe a 4 die range 1 missile with 1 charge, and a configurarion that allows reloads (maybe not as an action, with some kind of shenannigans like not being shot at that turn or whatever, not very awake at the moment to think of something better).

I really think the issue is more in the trouble finding its identity in a beefy-squadron-oriented faction when they are missile aces / in and out squadrons without high inis or good enough tools.

I agree that while more points down may be necessary, it really is more about giving the A-wing some value to add to a list. The idea of Rebel generic swarms are just gross to me, its so not what they 'should' be thematically, and part of their 'teamwork' identity should be mixing the strengths of different ships.

This is part of why Starbird slash excites me so: Its such a great way to give the A-wing a good value to add that isn't trying to intimidate block (Which feels weird thematically to me and which often ends poorly for the A-wing, which is rough both for a ship that is loved and because... you know... giving away 15-30 points to land a block is a comically bad plan) and which rewards the A-wing for slickness, which is really what the A-wing is about in my mind, and it fits rebels so wonderfully to have the fast ship go in and open things up for their slower ships, its great thematically and would help the 'X-wing doesn't feel super star-warsy' vibe I sometimes get.

Things that make you say 'I want 1-3 A-wings in my list because they will help the rest of it' is the gold standard for me. Missiles can help with that, because they are pseudo-control, so a config to make missile locks easier would be neat, especially if it was dot limited and deliberately under-priced to 'push' the chasis.

I am not a fan of turret rotation being patched into the RZ-1 for a few reasons. I get its a BIG part of the RZ-2's value, but it always felt weird for a small fighter and it doesn't exactly fit my mental image of the A-wing, even though its canon. Maybe evoking rotation makes more sense, an effect to fire out the side arcs or rear arc while taking a deplete once or twice a game, for example, but I think the best way to make the RZ-1 not 'Rz-2, but worse' is just giving RZ-1's a config to give them a clearly different role so that future A-wing stuff gains a different kind of value on both ships, rather than the rebel's just being 'budget and bad.'

For example, what if the RZ-1 got to take a free or semi-free target lock any time it bumped or flew over someone as a cheap config? This helps define the RZ-1 as a missile ship and the RZ-2 as focused on its guns, and means Starbird Slash has different kinds of values on the two ships (Rewarding you more for setting up a future shot by giving the value to someone else, vs getting a smaller reward but that shot is immediately there for you). It also helps make the RZ-1 feel more like a deadly dogfighter even though its low initiative (which I think is a design space that should be explored, low initiative ships that still feel sleek like an I6 double repo-ace does) rather than some chump you hurl at your opponent's face to block an action and die.

I honesty do not think, that adding a Turret Arc on the A-Wing will be a good idea. It has its distinctive feel from the RZ-2 right now. And seeing the Baron/Inquisitor Tie do good with just a front Arc, I feel like the answer is elsewhere. A config might be nice, but perhaps one adding some form of additional linked actions, to let the A-Wing get a Focus > Roll?

I feel like Jake Farrell is the best A-Wing pilot in the game, just because he can do a Roll > Focus > Red Boost > grant a Focus to someone. Arvel is unique in his ability to punish people bumping him. Especially if you fly him with Intimidation.

I do think that making it a pilot ability for one RZ-1 would be an interesting concept, giving that "prototype" feel to the ship. It would not be as broken without the Heroic+Optics, but it would be decent. But I still stand at the point, that the RZ-1 should be its own ship, not just an RZ-2 wanna be. Configuration would let all of the RZ-1s to field a turret arc, which I think would be too much.

An interesting lore concept might be to give them a Config to turn the 4-5 Straight into White and give it a Jam Action > Red Roll. They had a powerful short range Jammer installed. And it might be an interesting thing to let the Rebel A-Wing be this annoying short range token stripper. Generics with that and a Predator could be quite good.

EDIT:

Explanation on the Config idea! Lore wise the Jammer was pulling power from the Engines, so that is why I would see the 4-5 turned into Whites. To express the lower speed of the ship.

7 hours ago, Schanez said:

I honesty do not think, that adding a Turret Arc on the A-Wing will be a good idea. It has its distinctive feel from the RZ-2 right now. And seeing the Baron/Inquisitor Tie do good with just a front Arc, I feel like the answer is elsewhere. A config might be nice, but perhaps one adding some form of additional linked actions, to let the A-Wing get a Focus > Roll?

I feel like Jake Farrell is the best A-Wing pilot in the game, just because he can do a Roll > Focus > Red Boost > grant a Focus to someone. Arvel is unique in his ability to punish people bumping him. Especially if you fly him with Intimidation.

I do think that making it a pilot ability for one RZ-1 would be an interesting concept, giving that "prototype" feel to the ship. It would not be as broken without the Heroic+Optics, but it would be decent. But I still stand at the point, that the RZ-1 should be its own ship, not just an RZ-2 wanna be. Configuration would let all of the RZ-1s to field a turret arc, which I think would be too much.

An interesting lore concept might be to give them a Config to turn the 4-5 Straight into White and give it a Jam Action > Red Roll. They had a powerful short range Jammer installed. And it might be an interesting thing to let the Rebel A-Wing be this annoying short range token stripper. Generics with that and a Predator could be quite good.

EDIT:

Explanation on the Config idea! Lore wise the Jammer was pulling power from the Engines, so that is why I would see the 4-5 turned into Whites. To express the lower speed of the ship.

Okay. So how about a config card that adds a crew slot (Rebels Canon)

And this configuration:

Jammer.
1 charge (non recurring)

after fully executing a maneuver, you can expend a charge to assign a jam token to an enemy ship at range 0-1.
When you reveal your dial you can increase the chosen maneuvers difficulty to recover a charge.

This makes low cost generics strip tokens, but can't necessarily be done every turn.

20 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Okay. So how about a config card that adds a crew slot (Rebels Canon)

And this configuration:

Jammer.
1 charge (non recurring)

after fully executing a maneuver, you can expend a charge to assign a jam token to an enemy ship at range 0-1.
When you reveal your dial you can increase the chosen maneuvers difficulty to recover a charge.

This makes low cost generics strip tokens, but can't necessarily be done every turn.

I doubt they will add a Crew slot to the A-Wing. Imagine a Leia on board. Low cost super support behind 3 Agility and an Evade. If they do, there must be some serious drawback to it. Or some serious cost. That would be an amazing support ship.

Imagine Jake or Arvel with Baze Malbus or Magva Yarro, even Hera Syndula. Arvel with Cassian is just busted.

44 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

And this configuration:

Jammer.
1 charge (non recurring)

after fully executing a maneuver, you can expend a charge to assign a jam token to an enemy ship at range 0-1.
When you reveal your dial you can increase the chosen maneuvers difficulty to recover a charge.

Not to keep crapping on ideas, but anything with a whiff of C1-10P rubs me the wrong way.

And to nitpick, with the way you worded it, you could reveal a blue, knock it down to a white, fully execute the maneuver, then spend that charge. As long as you aren't blocked and are doing a blue (common on A's) you get a free jam every turn which, unlike C1-10P, cannot self jam if no one is at range 0-1. This card would need a downside of some sort.

9 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Not to keep crapping on ideas, but anything with a whiff of C1-10P rubs me the wrong way.

And to nitpick, with the way you worded it, you could reveal a blue, knock it down to a white, fully execute the maneuver, then spend that charge. As long as you aren't blocked and are doing a blue (common on A's) you get a free jam every turn which, unlike C1-10P, cannot self jam if no one is at range 0-1. This card would need a downside of some sort.

Fair enough. I'm a strictly imperial player, so not fully aware of all the rebel scum.
Honestly, Im just spitballing ideas. But, make it 2 non recurring charges, and spend 2 charges for the jam. Makes it every other turn.

honetly I'm just trying to get the lore into the game - well, mainly the a-wing crew slot.

as to the a wing crew config.. how about can't equip on a limited pilot - it’s a trainer after all.

1 hour ago, Schanez said:

I doubt they will add a Crew slot to the A-Wing. Imagine a Leia on board. Low cost super support behind 3 Agility and an Evade. If they do, there must be some serious drawback to it. Or some serious cost. That would be an amazing support ship.

Imagine Jake or Arvel with Baze Malbus or Magva Yarro, even Hera Syndula. Arvel with Cassian is just busted.

One way to make it work would be to put restrictions on it.
For example, the title could be restricted to non-unique pilots, and only allow a crew that costs, say, 4 points or less. It's a trainer, after all, so it shouldn't have an ace pilot. The 1.0 TIE Shuttle title had a point restriction, so it's not like it would be completely unprecedented. The point limit could possibly even be a little higher, especially with the non-unique restriction, but I wouldn't want to make it high enough to allow, say, Leia crew.

It would still make for an interesting support ship, but would avoid the most problematic combos.

52 minutes ago, Schanez said:

I doubt they will add a Crew slot to the A-Wing. Imagine a Leia on board. Low cost super support behind 3 Agility and an Evade. If they do, there must be some serious drawback to it. Or some serious cost. That would be an amazing support ship.

Imagine Jake or Arvel with Baze Malbus or Magva Yarro, even Hera Syndula. Arvel with Cassian is just busted.

Any A plus Zeb. We're all Budget Arvels in our heart lol 😆

Back to@all

Joke aside. I really don't get the push back on swivel guns for the A. Every argument I've seen raised against so far is just as easily used to say that the T-65 shouldn't have an S-foil card if the -70 is going to have one too. After all, ONLY the -70 ever was seen often on screen switching modes while in combat. For the -65 it was an under developed feature and Wedge even orders the foils to be LOCKED for combat purpose like it was a regular thing to not switch while fighting. But both get a distinct version of it and nobody's bothered by it. The -70 gets a better one to even show it as evolved from it's predecessor and gets some limited guns back. Which many in their own pitch have included.

So why not the A? It's not like we're talking about subverting two wildly different chassis role from each other. Like if we were saying we should model one of the two As after a TIE/sf, you'd have a point in not wanting to overlap the roles with say missile turrets for instance. But we're talking about showing the heritage line between the same chassis over only it's two direct linked iterations. You'd expect if it's cool to have a link between two T series, it would be cool to have it between the two RZ series.

I just don't see the logic in rejecting one known feature of the ship in lore, which brings you this great thematic continuity (something I feel you like from our other discussion @dezzmont ), just to turn around and want something more obscure and even more rare like a crew or jam. The *trainer* ship is the one you want to put in the combat game? You want the high speed interceptor to work as a electronic warfare ship? That's all just very very bizarre to me. Not bad ideas per se, just bizarre to pick over a more obvious choice. Heaven forbid they ever make a Falcon for each er..a... .... Oh... Wait. Lol 😝

No.

Fix the points. That's all.

Everything else might be cool but it's strictly extra.

They need more pilots!

If RZ-2s only had 2 unique pilots, one of which was zari and the other being tallie, we would see far fewer of them.

We would see some, but they wouldn't be the pedestal of the resistance like they are now

A wings are sort of the same way, they need more pilots, higher initiative, and lower cost

1 hour ago, Roller of blanks said:

If RZ-2s only had 2 unique pilots, one of which was zari and the other being tallie, we would see far fewer of them.

Tallie would still be everywhere. I5 is no joke.

3 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

They need more pilots!

If RZ-2s only had 2 unique pilots, one of which was zari and the other being tallie, we would see far fewer of them.

We would see some, but they wouldn't be the pedestal of the resistance like they are now

A wings are sort of the same way, they need more pilots, higher initiative, and lower cost

Shara Bey (Poe’s mom) will happen eventually (hotshots and aces)

5 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I just don't see the logic in rejecting one known feature of the ship in lore, which brings you this great thematic continuity (something I feel you like from our other discussion @dezzmont )

I love thematic continuity!

However, game design is, ultimately a task of balancing a bajillion tensions, for example theme in fantasy and theme in mechanics, balance, relationships between different things, ect.

I don't like the swivel guns because of the fact they don't fix my problem with the RZ-1's thematic fantasy, because I mostly love the RZ-1 from the old Rogue Squadron N64 games (I am 'too young' to have been into the original X-wing and TIE fighter games, what a scandal! Still, in my minds eye the A-wing will eternally be low-poly) and the appeal of the A-wing in those games was that it was hella fast, hella slick, and hella good at popping folks with missiles on drive-bys.

I would not be opposed to a swivel gun option, but it isn't the fix for the chasis for me, because it feels goofy to me, and doesn't make the A-wing more 'classic A-wingy' in terms of the fiction, it just makes it more like the RZ-2 mechanically. This may be a 'me problem' but there are other issues too, mainly that it makes changes to help further differentiate the RZ-1 and RZ-2 hard,, and may actually push it more into its successor's shadow, not less.

If a swivel gun mechanic came about, I would hope it evokes the RZ-2's, and shows a lineage, without out and out copying the effect, something to reflect that this isn't really what the RZ-1 was about and its more a neat gimmick of the ship at this era.

I also agree the idea of a crewed RZ-1 is a bit scary, especially because Jake already just really is unkind to the existence of the Sheathipede. It doesn't fit a good mechanical spot (Really cheap crew carriers tend to pay a tax for the right, or are deliberately bad in a fight, like with the Lambda being the most comically easy large to kill in the game due to how it moves through space like a bloated whale) and thematically it isn't what the ship was about at all. I don't imagine it as a mini-command ship or a multi-person fighter at all.

The jammer and sensor stuff I am more ok with, because the ship WAS this super slick scout ship in a lot of missions (I distinctly remember in Rogue Squadron Wedge would often go on solo missions using it to scout and avoid detection!), and that opens up a lot of ways to bridge the reality of the ship's current state with the fantasy of it: You can do a lot to reward the A-wing predicting your opponent's moves and trying to stick close to get a big reward without having to do wild things to its offensive power. This has the side bonus of encouraging A-wing mini-swarms, rather than a six pack in rebel, 3 hypothetical "I am not touching you, but oooonly juuuuust nyah nyah nyah" A-wings that toss out jams by flying dangerously and using their reposition helps the A-wing feel like a slick interceptor even at low initiative or in matchups where the A-wing can't push damage, without getting... weird.

The biggest problem with the A-wing is that its priced as a trash ship, but it isn't a trash ship in most people's hearts. People don't want the A-wing necessarily to be 'good' (though it REALLY shouldn't be bad) but they want it to like... feel like an A-wing, and in lore the A-wing is... awesome? Like its kinda completely out of the ship's theme to be this super cheap garbage ship that struggles to do anything and which you use as a suicide blocker, because its supposed to be this badass super-interceptor with an amazing computer and tons of missiles which is so specifically tuned it actively is a struggle to logistically maintain them (which screams 'costs more than the X-wing!). I want effects that showcase this 'slick, sexy ship' aspect, not to make my bad choice to run 3 A-wings made incrementally less bad by just reducing the investment.

This is why I am so comically hyped for Starbird slash by the way, which does exactly what an A-wing upgrade should do: Make me imagine feeling super cool and awesome pulling cool maneuvers and running circles around people. I mentioned this before, but it makes the A-wing feel thematically like an ace running circles around people, despite being low initiative, which is a very cool theme for X-wing to explore, as being a slick pilot 3 steps ahead of people should be a feeling every player should get, not just people running aces who are 'forced' to be slick by getting perfect information.

I would be happy in a world where triple A-wing Aces was a thing.

Will that ever happen? No

But it would be cool

18 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Shara Bey (Poe’s mom) will happen eventually (hotshots and aces)

What if her ability was 1.0 poe?

Fits with her ARC ability (focus results) and shows her connection to Poe kinda.

Also, if she was I5, she would be sick as a "rebel zizi"

(1.0 Poe's ability was "while you have a focus token, you may change 1 focus result to a hit or evade)

1 minute ago, Roller of blanks said:

I would be happy in a world where triple A-wing Aces was a thing.

Will that ever happen? No

But it would be cool

One thought I had was an A-wing 'ace swarm' thing where the rebels get 3 A-wings for, effectively, the price of 2 or 1.5 aces, by virtue of not being able to easily double mod unlike most 'traditional aces.' One of those slots is probably filled by Jake, but with 2 other cheap A-wing I4s, 5s, or 6s it could happen.

It would be a neat way to give rebels ace toys while limiting their endurance as aces, because A-wings tend to go pop pretty quick.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I think the best thing for the RZ-1 (besides cheeper pilots, and more of them), is to get a sensor slot, with an RZ-1 A-Wing unique sensor. This would allow them to take upgrades like advanced sensors on Arvel, or collision detector on Jake. Passive sensors could maximize the missile capabilities and ease of locking. I think a specific, limited sensor that let the rebel a- wing Jam a ship at range 0-1 after executing a blue maneuver, would be a good way to go about it. I liked the idea earlier about increasing the difficulty of the maneuver, so if it turns out the blue maneuver -> jam is too good you could change the wording. I am in the camp that the answer isnt a turret. Let that be the RZ-2’s thing. We need something else that makes it unique. Earlier I saw a post about it being a zippy thing that is focused on missiles. I think a good way to represent this is with a reload (if you go back to the original post, you can see my exact wording for the card), and a squad buff mechanic for other rz-1s (the more of them you fly the better). Ya. I know I may be a broken record. But I love this ship and it isnt as good as it should be. Justice for the rz-1 is in order. (Just look at the original post. Its much better written...)

24 minutes ago, Gupa-nupa said:

I think a good way to represent this is with a reload

I think reload is super over-rated and not a great way to make you want missiles in the first place. The value proposition of giving up an entire turn of shooting to get another shot is very questionable, especially if its red. I use Y-wings a lot and despite running torp Ys it just rarely comes up even if I run APTs. I wouldn't be opposed to the option, but it wouldn't get the ship 'there.'

The sensor slot would do a lot to make missile A-wings better at low initiative and WOULD get it there. I am not opposed to it getting a slot and some sensors that are great with it, but passive sensors don't help my desire to be as slick as an otter covered in crisco. I wouldn't be sad if that was the only change (I would if points is the only fix, because the cost of the A-wing, while off right now, fundamentally misses I think why people are sad about the chasis), but it wouldn't be my ideal compared to getting sensor options that give it a unique mega efficient way to get target locks (Again, 'fly overs' getting a totally free target lock would be awesome, for example! Target Lock Slash+Starbird Slash lets go!).

Ultimately the ship just feels bad in the 'kinda basically a generic because the reposition lacks value at the moment' space. It lacks the fun factor that makes you ever super overjoyed to slot specifically an A-wing, or anything that feels particularly A-wingy about it, because they over-focused on one scene that involved Arvel's crash and made that pretty much entirely the ship's thing and ignored the entire rest of canon, when no one who loves the A-wing loves it because of Arvel's crash.

That said, again, different goals can be chased at the same time. Mechanically I know people love intimidation A-wings and for them it really just is about a price reduction, so that is something that probably should happen. But for A-wing superfans like myself (I literally picked rebel over empire purely because of A-wings despite liking the idea of 'shuttle commander' lists mechanically better! This sorta thing MATTERS to a lot of players) it needs more 'classic A-wing hotness' stuff too. A points fix may be needed, and may be all it needs to be 'viable.' But it isn't actually enough. Pilots may help, but that risks just making it about running all the 'good' A-wing pilots who have generically strong abilities, and I would much rather get nifty options for the A-wing that let me try it out in different ways that feel unique to it.