New card, new questions! I stole this question from reddit:

When does the "closest valid attack range" come into effect?

During the declare target step, sub-steps happen in this order:

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a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.

b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.

c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.

Can you choose a weapon like a Concussion Missile to limit the choosable range to 2-3 since it is before the "declare defender" substep? So if an enemy ship is at range 1, if I choose Concussions can I shoot a ship behind it?

It would seem to me that you are not making any choices about your target until Step (c), at which point you are limited by your weapon's range as well as ATP's restrictions. Note that ATP also specifies that you must choose the closest valid attack range (i.e. the weapon you're shooting with might make some attack ranges invalid).

In the case of a Concussion Missile or other weapon with a [lock] requirement, that attack requirement would still be in effect, as well, so you could easily by-pass everyone at range 1-2 and shoot the guy you have locked out at range 3.

Your chosen weapon's arc requirements would come into effect, as well. If you chose a HLC, for example, it might lock out that fellow at range 1 in front of you, as well as that guy at range 2 who isn't in your bullseye, allowing you to shoot the guy who is in your bullseye at range 3.

I would say yes because Choose Defender (ATP occurs here) happens AFTER you choose the weapon.

I'd say that's in keeping with precedent. Using secondary weapons used to get around tergeting restrictions goes back to 1e, and I don't think things have changed significantly.

6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd say that's in keeping with precedent. Using secondary weapons used to get around tergeting restrictions goes back to 1e, and I don't think things have changed significantly.

Maybe. There is something to be said that ATP *may* be triggering during sub-step A. But that would be restrictive and now allow you to pick the weapon.

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Declare Target: During this step, the attacking player identifies and names the defender of the attack.

a. Measure Range: The attacking player measures range from the attacker to any number of enemy ships and determines which enemy ships are in which of its arcs.

b. Choose Weapon: The attacking player chooses one of the attacker’s primary or special weapons.

c. Declare Defender: The attacking player chooses an enemy ship to be the defender. The defender must meet the requirements defined by the weapon.

d. Pay Costs: The attacker must pay any costs for performing the attack.

Not saying I think it should do that necessarily, and i more or less agree with your statement.. Just putting it out there that the debate is likely around sub-step A vs C.

Dakka tug?

tough topic. i will agree with @Lyianx here. it is very possible that you could be restricted by your choice of weapon. i'd say it's even likely at this point in time. it's not sufficiently clear, though. not that i think it makes that huge of a difference in practical terms, but i feel it would be a lot less complicated if you couldn't restrict you choice of target by choosing a different weapon. seems like the card would be easier to balance that way - and generally work in a more consistent manner. i just feel that would be better for the game. we'll see. posting the relevant rules text here for reference.

@meffo , I disagree. I think the rules are quite clear in this instance.

Attack range is determined by the attack arc , and the attack arc is determined by the weapon being used. Therefore, we cannot know what our valid attack ranges are until we have chosen a weapon, know what the attack arc is, and can actually determine attack range.

I agree with @DR4CO .

The ability would read something such as: “While you perform an attack, you must choose the nearest possible defender you are able to attack.”

4 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

I agree with @DR4CO .

The ability would read something such as: “While you perform an attack, you must choose the nearest possible defender you are able to attack.”

I'm thinking that since it specifies range, and not defender, that might be too specific? Posit: you have four possible targets in your arc: two at range 1, one at range 2, one at range 3. You'd be required to pick one of the ones at range 1—though the choice of which of those two would still be up to you.

Just going by the specific wording of the card text. Could be totally wrong.

On 8/28/2020 at 4:22 PM, Lyianx said:

Maybe. There is something to be said that ATP *may* be triggering during sub-step A. But that would be restrictive and now allow you to pick the weapon.

Not saying I think it should do that necessarily, and i more or less agree with your statement.. Just putting it out there that the debate is likely around sub-step A vs C.

To be sure, it's a maybe. Pretty often, there are multiple valid interpretations of the rules text.

I just don't think there's a tonne of reason to preemptively decide against it. X-Wing has been "pick weapon, then terget" for as long as I can remember. Mostly it hasn't mattered in 2e, but here it does. I just think it'd be best to stick with precedent in grey areas--some of our oldest precedent--until hearing more from Devs.

I agree with @DR4CO and @JBFancourt : the key is the specific use of the term "valid attack range." That implies that you have already chosen the weapon you wish to use, which may have range restrictions and is the only way you could have gotten a "valid" attack range. It's a deliberate usage of the language - unless some dev was merely trying to be all fancy and high-falutin', ha ha.

Associated question: what about a TIE/sf with turret pointed rear-wards? I'd argue that you can choose your weapon--front primary, or turret primary--and thus attack a Range 2 front-arc target instead of a Range 1 rear-arc terget. I suppose that'd also apply to any other tech-equipped ship with more than one primary weapon, but TIE/sf is the only one in the foreseeable future.

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Associated question: what about a TIE/sf with turret pointed rear-wards? I'd argue that you can choose your weapon--front primary, or turret primary--and thus attack a Range 2 front-arc target instead of a Range 1 rear-arc target. I suppose that'd also apply to any other tech-equipped ship with more than one primary weapon, but TIE/sf is the only one in the foreseeable future.

If the ATP effect kicks in at step c), then the /SF would be able to choose their weapon (and by doing so choose a more distant target).

On 8/29/2020 at 7:47 AM, DR4CO said:

@meffo , I disagree. I think the rules are quite clear in this instance.

Attack range is determined by the attack arc , and the attack arc is determined by the weapon being used. Therefore, we cannot know what our valid attack ranges are until we have chosen a weapon, know what the attack arc is, and can actually determine attack range.

Good catch

It does specifically say "Closest Valid Attack Range" and that is defined on pg 5.

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During an attack, the attack range is determined by measuring range from the closest point of the attacker to the closest point of the defender that is in the attack arc

During an attack, the attack arc is the arc that corresponds to the weapon the attacker is using.

Soo yeah, you pick the weapon first.

Them pointing out "Valid" seems to track with being able to select a range limited weapon, as attack range and attack arc dont take the weapon range limits into account in their definition.

Anyhow, there was a revised passage in the FAQ on this.

Takeaway: choosing to attack with a Lock-based missile with only one locked target puts any range or closest valid stuff out the window: the only valid terget is the locked one.

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Q: What does "closest valid attack range" as mentioned on Automated Target Priority mean exactly?

A: The "closest valid attack range" is the closest attack range for a given attack that has one or more potential valid defenders. A valid defender is a ship at the proper attack range in arc that meets the requirements for the chosen attack (such as attack [󲁁])

For example, consider a TIE/sf fighter equipped with Concussion Missiles that has one enemy ship in its 󲈫 at range 0, one enemy ship outside its 󲈫 at range 1, two enemy ships in its 󲈫 at range 2, and one enemy ship in its 󲈫 at range 3 (on which it has a lock). Its 󲈭 is in its 󲈫.

The TIE/sf fighter measures range (determining the above information) and chooses a weapon as normal.

• If it chooses its primary weapon, it determines the closest valid attack range as follows:
  • Range 0: Range 0 is not a valid attack range for its primary weapon, so the enemy ship in its 󲈫 at range 0 cannot be selected.
  • Range 1: The enemy ship outside its 󲈫 at attack range 1 is not in arc, so it cannot be selected. As there are no potential valid defenders at range 1, range 1 is not a valid attack range.
  • Range 2: There are 2 enemy ships in its 󲈫 at range 2. The attack does not have any special requirements. Thus, range 2 is a valid attack range. The attacking player can choose either of these two ships as the defender, regardless of which one is physically closer.
  • Range 3: There was at least one valid target at range 2, so range 3 cannot be the closest valid attack range. It cannot choose the ship in its 󲈫 at range 3.
• If it chooses its Concussion Missiles, it determines the closest valid attack range as follows:
  • Range 0: Range 0 is not a valid attack range for Concussion Missiles, so the enemy ship in its 󲈫 at range 0 cannot be selected.
  • Range 1: Range 1 is not a valid attack range for Concussion Missiles. Even if the enemy ship at range 1 was in arc, could not be selected.
  • Range 2: There are 2 enemy ships in its 󲈫 at range 2. However, Concussion Missiles has a special requirement of Attack (󲁁), and the attacker does not have a lock on either ship at range 2. Thus, range 2 is not a valid attack range for Concussion Missiles.
  • Range 3: There is an enemy ship in the attacker's 󲈫 at range 3, on which the attacker has a lock. Thus, attack range 3 is a valid attack range, and the ship at range 3 can be selected as the defender.
    • Note that if the TIE/sf had two locks, one on the ship at range 2 and the other on the ship at range 3, Range 2 would be the closest valid attack range and thus it would be required to choose the ship on which it had a lock at Range 2.