16 hours ago, Ebak said:

There will always be players who feel their particular faction is not getting love and attention, whether the argument is legitimate or not. It's also why I despised @Managarmr 's attempt to use 'alternative fact' statistics to present an argument for scum no longer being supported. "50% of a faction terms applied can use illicit slots compared to Scums 68%"

How many ships is that comparatively? 3 to 13? Last I checked 13 is just over 6 times more than 3. It kind of feels like your manipulating data with percentages to make your point seem more valid as @Matanui3 called you out for doing.

So this is where the wind is blowing from? - Apart from Trump's warped perception of reality and the Orwellian usage of language by him and his supporter, there is no such thing as "alternative facts." These do not exist. Facts are objective reality, verifyable, nothing else.

You wrote:
"1 out of 6 First Order ships"
That is factually wrong, both absolute and relative. So you actually warped factual data into wrong values to sustain your narrative.

What made me react. So i stated the correct number, which you interpret as alternative reality! Weird.

Neither did I complain about First Order getting Illicits in that post.

In the earlier post I pointed out the problem FFG has with future points and slots adjustment, now with the way FFG wrote Terex. Again, I was not complaining. This affects Rebels, Resistance and Scum likewise. So, to exclude FO, they would have to use triple keywords on an Illicit to ensure the hypothetical problematic FO-Illicit-combo disappears.

As per Terex you can equip Illicits on Xi, SF and FO. Makes 3 ships, not 1. Simple Math , not "alternative facts".
That this makes it absolutely seen less ships than Scum (3 First Order vs 13 Scum), is correct.

That does not change the fact that First Order jumps from zero to half of their ships (3 out of 6). Thus 50% of ship types versus 68.4% out of all the resp faction's ship types can potentially be equipped with Illicits- now viewed relatively. Again simple factual math , nothing subjective here, no changing of data.

Now, if we go down to pilot level, it is a jump from 0 to 19 (counting only Terex as having Illicit (we do not know about the other XI pilots yet!)) vs 58 Scum pilots (including even the Nashtah) in Extended. Yes, absolutely Scum still has double the number of pilots which can equip Illicits in Extended.

In Hyperspace however, if Xi is added (counting only Terex as having Illicit (we do not know about the others), assuming no other Hyperspace changes to neither Scum nor First Order, we are at 25 Scum pilots (including even the Nashtah) versus 19(!) First Order Pilots. Very close, absolutely. Again simple math.

Facts.

Hmmm. Malarus crew could be useful on Major Stridan with some Homing Passive SF's. If the attack seems likely to hit (typically bc Range 1 or against 2 green focus mod only defender), you don't have too bad a risk of flipping, so go ahead and primary, using passives to calculate. Otherwise, use passives for Homing missiles and stay safe.

Unrelated, in addition to wanting the cannon slot, Recoil now wants a crew!

11 hours ago, Freeptop said:

Also, am I misinterpreting things, or does the "End of Game" text mean that if Terex brings 3 illicits and distributes them, and then he's destroyed while the TIEs aren't, the other player still gets credit for the points of those illicits?

And what about the other way around? If the TIE is destroyed, does Terex regain his distributed illicits? Taking into account End of Game for the TIE could mean when it's destroyed. Otherwise, what is the use of regaining them at the End of Game... To not forget to pack it in his box? 😅

It's just for points. Kind of a neat way to get use from Deadman's Switch without losing the points for it.

The illicits always count as points on Terrex.

I am looking forward to try a squad composed of:
- Terex Pilot with Snoke as crew, illicits deadman's switch and maybe contraband
- TN
- 2 silencers, Maybe Rish and Recoil, the last with predator

It all depends of the cost of the shuttle. I am expecting somthing around 35-40 points (a little less than the lambda, a little more than the tie bombers).

15 hours ago, Asaverino1019 said:

it's not that terrible.

Is still terrible.

14 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

You fail to realize that everything an opponent does limits your choice of deployment and/or maneuvers. Sure, most of the time you aren't assigning tokens to the opponent's ships, but you'd be a fool to take the exact same maneuvers no matter which side of the board your opponent sets up on. Not to mention how your play changes depending on if you're facing off against a jousting block, two or more Proton Torps, or something like triple aces. Pyre merely limits you in a different, more readily apparent way.

Every upgrade is made to give you a strategic or tactical advantage in some way. Even not taking upgrades, sometimes. Please don't complain that your opponent's upgrade is giving them a strategic or tactical advantage against you. Especially before even knowing how much it costs them to take in the first place.

I do not fail to understand that. I think all of you defending this are getting a bit caught up in the trees and missing the forest here. This is a flat out handicap to begin the game on one of your ships, that your opponent gets to choose after you've revealed your tactics. It isn't just, "I don't want to joust so-and-so, I need to try and put rocks here and deploy my ships so I can do such and such." I do not have an issue with that sort of thing. That's the game. That's list-building and strategy. That is on turn zero indirect action on your opponent.

What I am complaining about here is my opponent getting to disrupt that and interfere with that after my tactics and strategy is revealed. Direct action on my ship on turn zero.

What you guys see where I'm coming from more if this was an ability that let your opponent re-deploy one of your ships? Now you wouldn't be allowed to make it so you would have to fly off the board but move it up to range two and turn it up to 45degrees but can't have the player's edge in the firing arc. I think a lot of you are caught up with, "It's just a couple of stress tokens." And not enough on directly acting on one of my ships before the first turn.

10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

The early turn stress is a detriment, just far less of one than you are making it out to be. It's nothing that you as the opponent can't plan around and compensate for. In fact, the more I think about him, the more I feel that Pyre's ultimate purpose isn't to catch the other guy out while he's stressed and has no actions (unless the opponent is an idiot and walks into it, I guess), but to guarantee that engagement won't happen for a couple of turns, allowing the FO player time to prepare.

As @Matanui3 said above, everything your opponent does limits your options in some way. You never just get to do whatever you like without thinking about what your opponent can do. So yes, you do just have to plan accordingly. Maybe don't deploy directly across from the enemy to buy yourself time to clear the stress, or if you deploy first, bunch your formation together so any attempt by your opponent to punish the guy clearing stress tokens involves parking in front of you entire list. Simples.

And just because it is "Simples" doesn't make it okay. The particular effect itself is neither here nor there. I'm pretty sure I tried to make this point with Beckett when he came out. The issue is getting to act directly upon my list and revealed strategy on turn zero.

And if you're a First Order player shouldn't all of you be a bit concerned they need to directly provide a means to buy time for the faction? It suggests something is kind of broke with the First Order (which in an outside of X-wing way I find tremendous amusement in) doesn't it?

If your list needs "time" then it is on your strategy and tactics to find that time. That's the argument that makes this thing "okay" to most of you isn't it? Adapt. Deal with the limitations your opponent places on you. Simples. This is straight up buying time, forcing a handicap, by direct action on your opponent on turn zero. I think that is flat out something that should not be in the game.

Beckett was the first tiny step in this kind of awfulness, now we've got a bigger one, do you guys really want to shrug this off and see where this sort of thing creeps to from here?

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

What I am complaining about here is my opponent getting to disrupt that and interfere with that after my tactics and strategy is revealed. Direct action on my ship on turn zero.

If your revealed tactic does not prevent the disruption, the problem is your tactic (and reveal it), not Pyre.

You see the opponent's squad before the start of the game. You have access to all the information.

I don't understand your complaints. I hate play against beefy list, but I can adapt everytime I see one in front of me. I can guess my opponent's preferences (primary objective, fight location, win condition). Why can't you do that with Pyre?

There are few pilots (and squads) who can capitalize the two stress tokens. It's only pressure (or delay), and only if you don't have the big guns.

1 hour ago, Silver_leader said:

- 2 silencers, Maybe Rish and Recoil, the last with predator

I'd only suggest that Fanatical FOTP are probably better. TN-3465 handles the blank mods early, while Focus (or Fanatical if your opponent attacks into the Silencers) takes care of the eyes.

I wonder if Afterburners on TN could work in a squad like this... it's pricey and not HS, but might make it a lot easier to actually get her into range early.

36 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

If your revealed tactic does not prevent the disruption, the problem is your tactic (and reveal it), not Pyre.

You can not prevent the disruption. You maybe can mitigate it. If you can just deploy your way out of Pyre what is the point of the ability? If it "doesn't matter," why is it on the card?

38 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I don't understand your complaints.

Think of it this way. You're in an MMA fight and your opponent gets to punch you in the face right after the ref goes over the rules again but before the ref says "Fight." But that would be okay right? Because you know its coming and you can just make a plan for that. Your opponent is going to punch you later. He's already going to make it hard for you to punch him. It's just one punch you have to take before the start of the match. You can take one punch right? Didn't you git gud?

You guys are all blowing this off, "Because it's just a couple of stress tokens." First it was a rock. Now it's a couple of stress on a choice of ship. What's next? Are you going to draw any line on what sort of direct action your opponent can take on you on turn zero? Is everything they might care to come up with okay because it's on you to be able to handle a free direct action on you?

21 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why do scum players think

1) Illicits were the only source of the dirty tricks?

2) range1 joust is the only scum option at the moment?

Kimogilas, Seevor, G1A, ion&tractor, and several more are completely viable and have been for over a year.

When was the last time scum used illicits besids contraband and rigged, anyway?

19 hours ago, svelok said:

so what I've learned is that scum players are mad about a version of scum that exists only in their minds

There's one thing that both of these thoughts have in common - they're 1.0 holdovers that didn't translate well to 2.0. In 1.0, Illicits were pretty much a selection of dirty tricks that could all of a sudden swing a game in Scum's favour. With 2.0, we actually do have more sources of dirty tricks, through pilot and ship abilities. I would say that most Scum players, myself included, are still thinking about what made us unique in 1.0, and why it seems to be missing now, rather than looking at a bigger-picture view.

On the R1 joust, I would say that for competitive players, these are the topmost, if not the only, options, and because of that, there's a bit of blinkering going on. All of the ships you've named, @GreenDragoon , are certainly viable, but not widely played.

I've almost never used Feedback Array, but I have outfitted three Z-95s with Deadman's Switch in the past. I think the problem here is that there aren't that many good Illicit upgrades, which feels like a bit of a washout - again, probably due to 1.0 hangover, when Illicits were the grease that smoothed the wheel's spin. @svelok , you're probably right about Scum being mad about an imaginary version of the faction. Memory, though, is a powerful thing.

8 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

You can not prevent the disruption. You maybe can mitigate it. If you can just deploy your way out of Pyre what is the point of the ability? If it "doesn't matter," why is it on the card?

What about Initiative Deployment Rules? It's a Core mechanic and if you deploy before your opponent, you cannot prevent anything. Is that ok?

When a player brings gas clouds, is that not fair if you have Vultures with grappling struts?

Pyre changes the enviroment and you can change your tactics to prevent, mitigate or take advantage of his effect, like the opponent's squad, the obstacles, and all things that we refers as turn 0.

Maybe is not funny for you but is not very powerful and is not cheating (like your example).

2 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Beckett was the first tiny step in this kind of awfulness, now we've got a bigger one, do you guys really want to shrug this off and see where this sort of thing creeps to from here?

Beckett is a lot more impactful, IMHO, than Pyre. Two stress will be gone by Turn 2, and few lists engage before then. Beckett changing the lanes after deployment makes a bigger difference and can dramatically alter where a list can fly.

//

However, I guess my thing is: I don't care that much about Turn Zero disruption.

• Turn Zero Disruptions are necessarily once-per-game. Sure, there can be lasting impacts to single-use effects, but Sloane handing out stress multiple times a game. Beckett is less disruptive than repeated tractor shennanigans. That's not a direct equivalent, but probably as close as it comes, since it alters the relationship between ship position and rock position.
• Turn Zero Disruption mostly happen early enough that someone can react to them. Stuff like Forward Deployment (Dormitz, res-Han, crew-Boba) is more immediate, and I'm less cool with it. Someone can route around a rock, or clear that stress with blue moves, usually before combat begins. Most other disruption effects can't be played around in the same way.

The effect of Pyre is anyway just turn 1, and only affects the maneuver choice for turn 2. That's just enough to rush them, not enough to make it miserable

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd only suggest that Fanatical FOTP are probably better. TN-3465 handles the blank mods early, while Focus (or Fanatical if your opponent attacks into the Silencers) takes care of the eyes.

I wonder if Afterburners on TN could work in a squad like this... it's pricey and not HS, but might make it a lot easier to actually get her into range early.

I don't think I want to spend 6 points on a ship that I will make it explode.....

As for the FOTP, it's a good idea. I like Rush, because at the start, when Snoke is there, he can place himself at the good spot, and later in endgame, he would be normally at init 6. Maybe the second silencer could be a FOTP. Still, it's a 1 point difference between recoil and the FOTP, with the same init.

The sensor buoy suite would also be a nice add-on to the list to get early locks with the squad.

I can understand the frustration of yourself @Frimmel .

The ability is not nothing, but at the same time I also agree with the majority.

in every game you have to decide on tactics based on what you are flying. Seeing Pyre would alter my deployment, but so does anything the player does and flies.

Turn 0 is a part of the game that very often is untouched by abilities but just because it doesn’t get abilities that interact with it, doesn’t mean they should or shouldn’t exist. It is design space that can be looked into but treated with care.

I personally cannot recall the last time I played against any list with Beckett in it. His presence does effect an opponents list but not all equally. Dash cares not for what Beckett does while Vultures and Hyenas care very much for what he does due to them having abilities that might rely on the placement of obstacles.

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There are cards that provide a direct counter to playstyles.

Pyre will be impactful, but he will impact some lists more than others. Large ships will hate him. However if you're against a swarm? What then? What about A-Wings with their fantastic dial of blues? Sure you're still forcing them to do blue maneuvers but by the time you've engaged they're mostly gone.

I can only talk about this from relative experience using a very similar game: Star Trek Attack Wing, I know I know just listen.

There is a card in the game that has a very similar impact. It puts a disabled token on two of your upgrades, to enable them you need to spend an action. She also grants you an upgrade slot. People purchase her for the upgrade slot, not the disable aspect. The solution to that in all games I've played is "Oh, I'll just 1 forward, or 2 forward, and do an action to clear one...same next round, voila. Problem solved."

This can also lead to double bluffs where the person rushes in because the opponent was expecting them to be slow, the reacted to what their opponents strategy is.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with this. Becket has not broken the back of the game, and us allowing it is not us accepting anything that impacts turn 0 blindly. I think there would have been more eyebrow raised in Beckett allowed you to move 3 obstacles for example, effectively getting a 'do over' for your placement. However, he only allows you to move one and even that results in the player having to decide which one to move: his opponents or his own.

Pyre does have something like this. Sometimes there will not be a clear answer who to impact. If you are against a list with a transport with D'arcy, Lu'lo and Tali...it isn't really an easy choice. D'arcy can just remove both after one turn so she's out as an option despite the transport being a very good target for the two stress. The other two are A-Wings with the most blue on their dial in the entire game. They can easily clear the stress and not be hampered too much, but even still you don't want to give it to Lu'lo, he likes stress when attacking. Tali is a good option...but if they have primed thrusters...arg.

There is still decision making to be made. Pyre will impact some lists more than other certainly, but to me it's no different to a swarm list doing well against a particular archetype and bad against another.

Just because turn 0 is a part of the game that is not impacted by abilities, doesn't mean it should be considered hallowed ground that can't be impacted.

Not saying your concern isn't warranted, but I do think its being blown a little overboard.

Edit:
Speaking for myself. I just see this as another tool in the toolbox that is part of assembling a strategy. If we are going to talk about handicapps, we'll never get anything special or different because anything can be argued to be a handicap. Howlrunner gives herself and friends rerolls. Is that handicap because you don't have the same ability?

Weak argument, I know, I just....this is an ability you have to pay for in terms of a valuable slot, and with a ship slot as well. You need a crew carrier for this. Furthermore we don't even know the points. At the end of the day it is a viable mechanic in the game that is part of the game.

11 hours ago, Managarmr said:

"It's all math and data" (Paraphrased for length)

The problem is not your data, it's the way you are choosing to represent the data that we think is wrong.

Sure FO suddenly gets to theoretically have illicits on half of their ship types, but that comes with MASSIVE fine print - you MUST take a specific pilot on a specific ship first, and even then you only get up to three strictly different illicits, no matter how many ships are in your list. You can take, say, seven TIE FOs all with Deadman's, and that's a very different beast from what Scum can do.

Plus, given their lack of ships, the fact that it technically could be seen as jumping to 50% (though, as above, I argue you are counting the wrong thing) is not as significant when you realize it's only three ships - the same as the Rebels have IIRC. Imagine if Rebels were a new faction and Saw's Renegades and the Falcon were the first releases. It would look really bad even though people don't have nearly as much of a problem now that Rebels are mostly other ships.

1 hour ago, Matanui3 said:

The problem is not your data, it's the way you are choosing to represent the data that we think is wrong.

Sure FO suddenly gets to theoretically have illicits on half of their ship types, but that comes with MASSIVE fine print - you MUST take a specific pilot on a specific ship first, and even then you only get up to three strictly different illicits, no matter how many ships are in your list. You can take, say, seven TIE FOs all with Deadman's, and that's a very different beast from what Scum can do.

Plus, given their lack of ships, the fact that it technically could be seen as jumping to 50% (though, as above, I argue you are counting the wrong thing) is not as significant when you realize it's only three ships - the same as the Rebels have IIRC. Imagine if Rebels were a new faction and Saw's Renegades and the Falcon were the first releases. It would look really bad even though people don't have nearly as much of a problem now that Rebels are mostly other ships.

To be utterly fair, he was right. I said 1 ship out of 6 and that wasn't accurate. I completely agree with you that using percentages instead of the actual number of ships is a questionable way to represent the data, which is what I took umbridge with...but his data is accurate. Just to be fair.

13 hours ago, Managarmr said:

So this is where the wind is blowing from? - Apart from Trump's warped perception of reality and the Orwellian usage of language by him and his supporter, there is no such thing as "alternative facts." These do not exist. Facts are objective reality, verifyable, nothing else.

You wrote:
"1 out of 6 First Order ships"
That is factually wrong, both absolute and relative. So you actually warped factual data into wrong values to sustain your narrative.

What made me react. So i stated the correct number, which you interpret as alternative reality! Weird.

Neither did I complain about First Order getting Illicits in that post.

In the earlier post I pointed out the problem FFG has with future points and slots adjustment, now with the way FFG wrote Terex. Again, I was not complaining. This affects Rebels, Resistance and Scum likewise. So, to exclude FO, they would have to use triple keywords on an Illicit to ensure the hypothetical problematic FO-Illicit-combo disappears.

As per Terex you can equip Illicits on Xi, SF and FO. Makes 3 ships, not 1. Simple Math , not "alternative facts".
That this makes it absolutely seen less ships than Scum (3 First Order vs 13 Scum), is correct.

That does not change the fact that First Order jumps from zero to half of their ships (3 out of 6). Thus 50% of ship types versus 68.4% out of all the resp faction's ship types can potentially be equipped with Illicits- now viewed relatively. Again simple factual math , nothing subjective here, no changing of data.

Now, if we go down to pilot level, it is a jump from 0 to 19 (counting only Terex as having Illicit (we do not know about the other XI pilots yet!)) vs 58 Scum pilots (including even the Nashtah) in Extended. Yes, absolutely Scum still has double the number of pilots which can equip Illicits in Extended.

In Hyperspace however, if Xi is added (counting only Terex as having Illicit (we do not know about the others), assuming no other Hyperspace changes to neither Scum nor First Order, we are at 25 Scum pilots (including even the Nashtah) versus 19(!) First Order Pilots. Very close, absolutely. Again simple math.

Facts.

If you really want to try to make percentages based on Terex's ability, then you can't say 3 out of 6 ships. Technically, each pilot card is a "ship", which is particularly relevant here, since Terex is the only Xi-Class Shuttle that allows for any TIEs to carry illicits. Then, on top of that, the only time any of the TIE/fo or TIE/sf ships can equip illicits are if Terex is also in the list - after all, you can't take a list that consists solely of, say, 4 TIE/fo ships carrying Deadman's switch. You can't even do that if you could fit in Terex, since only three of the TIEs could get the illicits, and they'd each have to end up with different illicits. So, if you want a percentage, you'll need to determine the combinatorics of which lists would allow for the illicits to be used on which pilot cards, and then then determine the total combinatorics of possible lists, and use that as a percentage. Until such a thing is done, you don't have a "factual" percentage.

Oh, and since such combinations need to take into account point costs, you'll also need to account for all possible upgrades that would fit within the point limits. Good luck!

On 8/27/2020 at 3:21 PM, svelok said:

so what I've learned is that scum players are mad about a version of scum that exists only in their minds

Not all Scum players. I would love some new toys for Scum, but as long as StarVipers are viable I'm content.

And I wouldn't say Scum is without an identity right now, Cheapness and Jank I think fit the bill. While Separatists technically have the cheapest ships in the Vulture, those are most effective in large numbers, while Scum's Cheapness can be standalone, and they also have the cheapest EPT, Cannon, Coordinate, large base blocker, and probably more I can't think of right now. And while a lot of their jank aren't viable, they do have exclusive access to some good ones like Seevor, Mux, and Beckett (haven't figured him out yet but I'm sure some genius will find a consistent way to get meaningful value out of him on Turn 0)

Some ships could stand to get some adjustment, like Kihraxz's could stand to get a 2 point discount across the board considering that a Skakoan Ace is almost a straight upgrade to a Cartel Marauder despite costing the same. More crit resistant, higher initiative, boost, linked Focus with repositioning, 5 Straight... the only downside is 1 less overall hit points. Mostly though, I think Scum just needs more Illicits that they can actually use.

The way Automated Targeting Priority is worded, it works with Snap Shot. If (god forbid) it costs 2 points, you could bring 4 Snap Shot + ATP Provocateurs. Every time a Provocateur gets a Snap Shot or misses its regular shot, it gets fuel to token stack Evade + Lock + Calculate at engagement.

7 hours ago, Enigami said:

Some ships could stand to get some adjustment, like Kihraxz's could stand to get a 2 point discount across the board considering that a Skakoan Ace is almost a straight upgrade to a Cartel Marauder despite costing the same. More crit resistant, higher initiative, boost, linked Focus with repositioning, 5 Straight... the only downside is 1 less overall hit points. Mostly though, I think Scum just needs more Illicits that they can actually use.

Being down a total health IS HUGE . Belbullabs pop noticeably faster and easier than X-Wings or Kihraxzes. I could see shaving a point off the Init 3 Kihraxz (equivalent X-Wing and B-Wing are only +1 over the Init 2 generics), but if Cartel goes down, Skakoan probably should too. I think both are fine right now.

7 hours ago, Enigami said:

The way Automated Targeting Priority is worded, it works with Snap Shot. If (god forbid) it costs 2 points, you could bring 4 Snap Shot + ATP Provocateurs. Every time a Provocateur gets a Snap Shot or misses its regular shot, it gets fuel to token stack Evade + Lock + Calculate at engagement.

Maybe use Snap Shot to remove a deplete token...

On 8/28/2020 at 3:28 PM, Frimmel said:

You can not prevent the disruption. You maybe can mitigate it. If you can just deploy your way out of Pyre what is the point of the ability? If it "doesn't matter," why is it on the card?

Think of it this way. You're in an MMA fight and your opponent gets to punch you in the face right after the ref goes over the rules again but before the ref says "Fight." But that would be okay right? Because you know its coming and you can just make a plan for that. Your opponent is going to punch you later. He's already going to make it hard for you to punch him. It's just one punch you have to take before the start of the match. You can take one punch right? Didn't you git gud?

You guys are all blowing this off, "Because it's just a couple of stress tokens." First it was a rock. Now it's a couple of stress on a choice of ship. What's next? Are you going to draw any line on what sort of direct action your opponent can take on you on turn zero? Is everything they might care to come up with okay because it's on you to be able to handle a free direct action on you?

That's a poor analogy. X-Wing is an asymmetric game (players bring different squads to the table), whereas MMA is symmetrical, and that's a fundamental difference. That is, X-Wing is a game in which players build lists, including upgrade cards that - in many cases - grant permission to avoid or modify core rules in specific ways. These cards have a points cost in return for their benefits. This means that a "free hit" before a bout in MMA is outside the rules of the competition in a way that a card in X-Wing isn't, and there's simply no analogy to card text there because the types of competition are fundamentally different.

Expanding on that point, the competition in an MMA bout begins when both fighters are in the ring and the referee gives the signal to begin [admittedly, I don't watch MMA so there may be technicalities I'm unaware of]. In X-Wing, the contest begins on "turn 0", not turn 1, because placing forces etc. is part of gameplay. So the MMA free hit is unfair precisely because the "timing window" is out-of-bounds of the contest (one fighter gets to hit before the contest begins), but in X-Wing, Pyre affecting placement of forces isn't out-of-bounds.

On 8/29/2020 at 12:28 AM, Frimmel said:

You guys are all blowing this off, "Because it's just a couple of stress tokens." First it was a rock. Now it's a couple of stress on a choice of ship. What's next? Are you going to draw any line on what sort of direct action your opponent can take on you on turn zero? Is everything they might care to come up with okay because it's on you to be able to handle a free direct action on you?

The most extreme effect I can think of that could actually be made to work rules wise would be flipping a charge on one of my cards. Which would still be fine; you've wasted an upgrade of your own to do it and it probably cost more than mine did.

So... no, I guess there is no line I'd draw.

On 8/28/2020 at 4:28 PM, Frimmel said:

You're in an MMA fight and your opponent gets to punch you in the face right after the ref goes over the rules again but before the ref says "Fight." But that would be okay right? Because you know its coming and you can just make a plan for that. Your opponent is going to punch you later. He's already going to make it hard for you to punch him. It's just one punch you have to take before the start of the match. You can take one punch right? Didn't you git gud?

This is one of the most stupid things I have read on this forum, and you are hopefully just disingenuous. A punch before the "fight" would be against the rules, which you know.

If anything it would be a punch/kick without touching gloves - something that does occurr and for which fighters have to be prepared.

I for one welcome more jank distruption effects.

X-wing needs more things that force your opponent to do things that aren't the absolute optimal choice out of a fear of consiquence, and Pyre is a supremely fair version of that. Perhaps too fair, as the point of these sorts of effects are, on some level, to make you uneasy, while I know for a fact Pyre is coming, its exact time window, and its scope of effect.

Like... proton bombs are more disruption in a lot of ways that Pyre, because you can't 'threaten' Pyre outside of threatening to rush in with two 5 straights if your opponent sets up like a doof. Pyre is mostly forcing you to give up the middle of the board if that, as some lists really won't care about the double stress anyway. That isn't to say its worthless, its just that it doesn't affect most list's gameplan that much.

I suspect, like most 'disruption is anti-fun' call-outs, its more because its anti-aces tech, than it actually being unfun. Effects that aces have to play around are good and help introduce skill testing elements to aces that they sorta lack. Pyre in an aces matchup forces the ace to figure out a path to the initial engagement without controlling as much space, which is legitimately challenging but not an impossible task, and forces aces into a position where they don't control the matchup from the word go.

The discussion of scum identity is more interesting. I am of the side that scum lacks enough dirty tricks and is currently leaning way too hard on 'superships' rather than actually being scum like. I do appreciate that Star Vipers are, at the very least, extremely tricky superships that feel appropriately scummy because they wiggle wobble around, and some scum stuff like mining TIEs feel great, but I am not a huge fan of their game plan currently being 'brawl your opponent down with sheer force using absurd repositioning combined with extremely strong defensive modding.' Scum basically is a two ship faction at the moment in a bad way that hurts their core thematic identity as scrappy irregular fighters who would do anything to win because the two ships that are strongest in scum are not at all about that.

On 8/29/2020 at 3:35 PM, Enigami said:

The way Automated Targeting Priority is worded, it works with Snap Shot. If (god forbid) it costs 2 points, you could bring 4 Snap Shot + ATP Provocateurs. Every time a Provocateur gets a Snap Shot or misses its regular shot, it gets fuel to token stack Evade + Lock + Calculate at engagement.

But they engage at 3, so chances are reasonably good that you'll get smashed in the face before you get the chance to token stack.

And remember that, even if this setup fits, by running it you are giving up on the chance to turn the fourth Provocateur into freaking Kylo . It would have to be a most potent combo to justify that.