10 hours ago, DR4CO said:

And, you will note, they were quite careful not to repeat that error here. There will be no Contraband Kylos or Cloaking Upsis in our future.

Except Holdo crew in Resistance can still pull the cloaking device shenanigans that they restricted Vizago for. Scum was denied the combo, but then is was allowed in another faction.

7 hours ago, Wazat said:

Everybody borrows Scum's things and returns them scuffed or broken.

Man, I feel this line.

7 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

I was pumped until I saw Hask is limited to 2 die attack ships.

Get focus + lock + deplete on a bunch of Provocateurs, then use Hask to pump that depleted shot back up.

11 hours ago, wurms said:

They can easily create illicit and say Scum Only or Small ship only, etc. Not that big of a design hole.

Pyre also makes mobile fortressing like 4 vipers less likely. One of them isnt rolling backwards and is breaking formation. Pyre can be a nice piece in a list. Ships like shuttles cant just stop in a corner either. Its creates and nice counterplay I think vs certain matchups. Whisper cant cloak. Shuttles cant stop in a corner. Slow flankers down to buy your self time. Stop Ewings and Jendon ships from locking early. Its nothing game breaking.

The issue with Pyre is an opponent should not get to act on the other opponent before the game starts. Disruption of a ship for two turns from the jump including disruption of even setup since you have the other disruption hanging over your head. That is an awful card.

28 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Except Holdo crew in Resistance can still pull the cloaking device shenanigans that they restricted Vizago for. Scum was denied the combo, but then is was allowed in another faction.

Aside from the end result of a token ending up where it otherwise wouldn't be, the two really aren't comparable at all.

Cikatro is cheap as chips, while the Resistance has to waste 41 points on a crew card and an otherwise useless i1 Fireball to field the combo. That kind o f money normally gets you an i5, token stacking A-wing, or a fully loaded Finn. And the combo falls apart once the i1 Fireball dies, or even misses an action, whereas Cikatro is rather permanent.

The Resistance setup is also far easier to control moving forwards. Future Resistance ships have to be balanced around a combo that costs a fifth of their list, and if it does break, R1-J5 gets his illicit slot taken away and that's the end of it. Easy. Meanwhile, every single Scum ship would need to be priced as though it had direct access to the cloak, which sounds like a total balance nightmare.

the scum persecution complex is on another level

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

the scum persecution complex is on another level

Haven't agreed with you so completely in the last week 😄

9 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Defensive rerolls on a 2 agility ship are no joke, especially if it has its force-independent ways of generating calculate, be it Terex or the new I3 and below tech.

Against some lists, that defensive bonus is mostly weak. Against many lists with traditional linkers and what not, it'll be literally as good defensively as Kohska. If you reaallllly need Pyre to trigger, take Debris and Rigged Cargo Chute.

To be sure, it'll be great when you get those defensive rerolls. But I suspect that for a lot of the game, without a way to stress someone after the opening, it might not come up that often (rigged cargo will require a separate Agent Terex seems like...). If there's two crew slots, he'll be great with Captain Phasma.

But even when it does come up, a Xi is a mostly ignore-able ship at 2 red dice. A buff-aura pilot like Malarus or Hask might help.

I think he's cool, and depending on price, Pyre seems like a nice pick to alter how an opponent opens the game, but it's not like he's Admiral Sloane.

Nooo

I wanna play good guys, I really do

But y'all are getting all the cool stuff

6 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Cikatro is cheap as chips, while the Resistance has to waste 41 points on a crew card and an otherwise useless i1 Fireball to field the combo. That kind o f money normally gets you an i5, token stacking A-wing, or a fully loaded Finn. And the combo falls apart once the i1 Fireball dies, or even misses an action, whereas Cikatro is rather permanent.

The point is that Resistance can do something that Scum was specifically nerfed to be able to not do, not that it costs 5 more points than the 36ish points that it costs Scum. Pointing out that Resistance can field an I5 Ace or an oddly tanky 4 health ship that punches well above it's weight class for the same price is an odd argument, as that points out something else Scum cannot do. 41 points gets a naked Serissu or, what, a G1-A or a Kimo? Neither are anywhere near as good as the Resistance alternative.

11 minutes ago, svelok said:

the scum persecution complex is on another level

Despite flying basically everything, I wear my Scum persecution badge proudly.

45 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

The issue with Pyre is an opponent should not get to act on the other opponent before the game starts.

Why not? You have full agency to deal with it. It’s not any worse than your opponent being able to move an obstacle after everything has deployed.

6 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Why not? You have full agency to deal with it. It’s not any worse than your opponent being able to move an obstacle after everything has deployed.

I disagreed with moving the obstacle as well. It is a little less disagreeable than this as moving the obstacle is acting on the battlefield and not directly on the player but only slightly. The point is you have to deal with it. My opponent gets to handicap one of my ships to start the game because to heck with me. I think those sorts of cards are awful and speak very ill of gamers. It is petty tyranny and exercise of unearned authority that comes from a place of spite. I find cards like Pyre philosophically offensive.

I find Resistance and First Order generally full of disagreeable mechanics.

16 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It is petty tyranny and exercise of unearned authority that comes from a place of spite. I find cards like Pyre philosophically offensive.

breaking news-anarchist @Frimmel declares stress tokens and obstacles to be government tyranny

/s, but the wording was too good not to joke about

55 minutes ago, svelok said:

the scum persecution complex is on another level

Which is odd since scum can currently fly 3 I6 ships in hyperspace while all other factions are down to 1 I6 (except FO which does have 2).

24 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

My opponent gets to handicap one of my ships to start the game because to heck with me. I think those sorts of cards are awful and speak very ill of gamers. It is petty tyranny and exercise of unearned authority that comes from a place of spite. I find cards like Pyre philosophically offensive.

31 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

It is petty tyranny and exercise of unearned authority that comes from a place of spite. I find cards like Pyre philosophically offensive.

That’s kind of the point of his entire character. The whole First Order, really.

And imagine trying to attack your opponent in oblique ways in a game about attacking your opponent. If you dislike moving an obstacle before game start, you’ll really be chagrined to learn that your opponent gets full agency over half of the obstacles to begin with without spending any points

He's acting like Pyre is going to be free and not have the opportunity cost of fielding the other great crew the FO has. Honestly, I doubt you will actually see him all that much or if anything he's going to be mildly annoying.

29 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

I disagreed with moving the obstacle as well. It is a little less disagreeable than this as moving the obstacle is acting on the battlefield and not directly on the player but only slightly. The point is you have to deal with it. My opponent gets to handicap one of my ships to start the game because to heck with me. I think those sorts of cards are awful and speak very ill of gamers. It is petty tyranny and exercise of unearned authority that comes from a place of spite. I find cards like Pyre philosophically offensive.

I find Resistance and First Order generally full of disagreeable mechanics.

Indeed, however shall we all cope with these stress tokens? Our ship is just crippled for the entire game and we shall never be able to recover from this -- oh, wait, I did 2 blue moves and it was as though nothing had happened. Weird.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

the scum persecution complex is on another level

Oh man, so much this. And I say this as someone who enjoys flying scum and really flew mostly scum in 1.0 and the early days of 2.0 (then republic and FO sort of stole me away, but I think it’s fine to play a mix).

Some things are silly to still be in 1.0 timeout, but it’s not like scum don’t have neat choices. Fangs are still good, Ketsu/Asajj are both good in extended, etc. Scum falcons just got a massive point cost reduction, so that makes my hyped to try them again.

4 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

He's acting like Pyre is going to be free and not have the opportunity cost of fielding the other great crew the FO has. Honestly, I doubt you will actually see him all that much or if anything he's going to be mildly annoying.

agreed - maybe in certain niche builds and really only for the second ability about defense die. Not going to do much with the early turn stressing, unless there’s some ace who really wants repositioning right away to keep folks guessing (but you as the ace player have to know that it’s coming at the start of the game, and plan your placement and dial accordingly).

Imagine having so many ships that it's almost as many as all the prequel and sequel factions combined yet feeling the need to hijack every thread about new articles. From Waves 2 - 6, FO was just a 4 ship faction, but with the release of gas clouds and new generic upgrades, it felt as if the faction was getting expanded, even if but a little! It was exciting for us FO mains, and absolutely insane when the news dropped that we'd get AN ENTIRE NEW SHIP?!!!!! in the form of the TIE/BA.

S P O I L E D!

All the same, I fly the misc. faction from time to time. They do have a theme: bounty hunters and gangsters that invert game mechanics in a fun way (aces that joust, 2agi ships that live a long time, filler ships that can be retrofitted with either heavy weaponry or explosives, an un-arcdodgeable ship that can punish force users, the crew that turn stressed opponents from likely to hit from having linked to probably not going to hit at all, etc.).

19 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

Oh man, so much this. And I say this as someone who enjoys flying scum and really flew mostly scum in 1.0 and the early days of 2.0 (then republic and FO sort of stole me away, but I think it’s fine to play a mix).

Some things are silly to still be in 1.0 timeout, but it’s not like scum don’t have neat choices. Fangs are still good, Ketsu/Asajj are both good in extended, etc. Scum falcons just got a massive point cost reduction, so that makes my hyped to try them again.

It all comes around. I remember there was a time Rebel were considered on the back foot, then they got a massive leap forward and it was then Empire that was being left in the dirt. There will always be players who feel their particular faction is not getting love and attention, whether the argument is legitimate or not. It's also why I despised @Managarmr 's attempt to use 'alternative fact' statistics to present an argument for scum no longer being supported. "50% of a faction terms applied can use illicit slots compared to Scums 68%"

How many ships is that comparatively? 3 to 13? Last I checked 13 is just over 6 times more than 3. It kind of feels like your manipulating data with percentages to make your point seem more valid as @Matanui3 called you out for doing.

Compared to the original 3, Scum have seen the most new released in 2.0 with the Falcon and Mining Guild TIE Fighter, and are scheduled to get a third in the form of the Razor Crest sometime next year, AND the Separatist Firespray is coming with new scum stuff as well.

So yes, I think the scum persecution complex is dumb as well.

For the record, as much as I do think the JumpMaster was crippled when it was transferred to 2.0, it is still in time out, it knows what it and it's scum players did for about 2 years. But no seriously I wish that ship hadn't been handicapped as much as it had, but ScummyRebel does have a fair point. There are always good options for Scum. I am very excited to get a fun looking Scum Falcon list onto the board sometime soon.

This pack looks fun and I bet some of these options won't be in hyperspace for more than a rotation.

S.ome

P.layers

O.ften

I.nterject,

L.acking

E.mpathy towards

D.iverse

S.ections of a

C.ommunity

U.derstandably excited for

M.ore content

1 hour ago, Roller of blanks said:

Nooo

I wanna play good guys, I really do

But y'all are getting all the cool stuff

First Order folks defect all the time. Finn, sure, but also both Hux and Kylo. There's your path to playing First Order and being the Good Guys and not Space Fascists.

Dang it, double post when I thought I only clicked it once. I'm usually pretty good at recognizing the DP hang...

46 minutes ago, Asaverino1019 said:

Which is odd since scum can currently fly 3 I6 ships in hyperspace while all other factions are down to 1 I6 (except FO which does have 2).

Fair. Fenn is the most expensive I6. Dengar has finally started to prove his worth. Han just plain sucks. He's an I6 anchor like Dengar used to be, and shouldn't be counted. In a similar fashion, while FO has 2 I6's in hyperspace, should we even count Midnight? If Rebels could field Fenn Sheath in Hyperspace, would we even really count him as an I6? I6 doesn't automatically mean something is good.

11 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

They do have a theme: bounty hunters and gangsters that invert game mechanics in a fun way (aces that joust, 2agi ships that live a long time, filler ships that can be retrofitted with either heavy weaponry or explosives, an un-arcdodgeable ship that can punish force users, the crew that turn stressed opponents from likely to hit from having linked to probably not going to hit at all, etc.).

I suppose my complaint is that Scum was the weird tricks faction, but that identity feels lost. Nom-Lumb definitely feels like that weird trick which is pretty cool. I'm glad to that come out and be effective. When I saw Torkil Swarm for the first time, I was excited because I was like "that list is dirty, that is Scum". It was the first list that seemed to fit the old Scum identity. When Scum see a faction do a tricksy thing when their own tricksy tools are nerfed or overcosted, they get unhappy. Those costings are slowly falling to more appropriate levels each update, however, I will admit.

Scum does have strong pieces, but the faction identity of all those strong pieces currently feels like "get to range one and punch harder than anyone else". Especially, if you didn't have any first edition stuff. Boba and Fangs just don't feel scummy.

FO definitely has had is worse, admittedly. Overpriced for most of 2nd Edition and with the fewest ships. Before the TIE/ba, their faction identity was "we have Kylo". This expansion + the TIE/ba + the Hotshots & Aces, however, are doing really well in establishing a "Ve vill destroy ze enemy, no matter ze cost to me or my teammate". I am happy for FO in this and other releases.

But I can be sad for Scum at the same time.

3 hours ago, svelok said:

the scum persecution complex is on another level

I think we Scum players are just feeling a bit miffed that other factions are stealing our tricks.

3 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

The point is that Resistance can do something that Scum was specifically nerfed to be able to not do, not that it costs 5 more points than the 36ish points that it costs Scum. Pointing out that Resistance can field an I5 Ace or an oddly tanky 4 health ship that punches well above it's weight class for the same price is an odd argument, as that points out something else Scum cannot do. 41 points gets a naked Serissu or, what, a G1-A or a Kimo? Neither are anywhere near as good as the Resistance alternative.

Despite flying basically everything, I wear my Scum persecution badge proudly.

Thumbs up!

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

Fair. Fenn is the most expensive I6. Dengar has finally started to prove his worth. Han just plain sucks. He's an I6 anchor like Dengar used to be, and shouldn't be counted. In a similar fashion, while FO has 2 I6's in hyperspace, should we even count Midnight? If Rebels could field Fenn Sheath in Hyperspace, would we even really count him as an I6? I6 doesn't automatically mean something is good.

I suppose my complaint is that Scum was the weird tricks faction, but that identity feels lost. Nom-Lumb definitely feels like that weird trick which is pretty cool. I'm glad to that come out and be effective. When I saw Torkil Swarm for the first time, I was excited because I was like "that list is dirty, that is Scum". It was the first list that seemed to fit the old Scum identity. When Scum see a faction do a tricksy thing when their own tricksy tools are nerfed or overcosted, they get unhappy. Those costings are slowly falling to more appropriate levels each update, however, I will admit.

Scum does have strong pieces, but the faction identity of all those strong pieces currently feels like "get to range one and punch harder than anyone else". Especially, if you didn't have any first edition stuff. Boba and Fangs just don't feel scummy.

FO definitely has had is worse, admittedly. Overpriced for most of 2nd Edition and with the fewest ships. Before the TIE/ba, their faction identity was "we have Kylo". This expansion + the TIE/ba + the Hotshots & Aces, however, are doing really well in establishing a "Ve vill destroy ze enemy, no matter ze cost to me or my teammate". I am happy for FO in this and other releases.

But I can be sad for Scum at the same time.

That's my feeling, as well.