50 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

But here I fear that you haven't thought through this.

That's possible. I'll still try to answer. But as preface three points:

1) My experience is apparently very different than yours. I see some good players do very well with decidedly non-boba lists.

2) I think it is also pretty funny that Scum is this extremely individualistic faction while also scum players complain that there isn't a fits-all solution. That's not really incompatible, just funny.

3) if you think "usually I agree, but this topic where I am personally invested I really don't" then you should probably disagree more often or maybe rethink your own position here

50 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

When a *competitive* player complains about being "stuck" flying a single list, shouldn't that *add* weight to the argument? If they have only *one* option that is safe against all the other factions's many power pieces, doesn't that indicate rather that the whole of the Scum faction *outside of Boba* is underpowered (if we're not going to try to argue that the other factions are overpowered)?

Hold on, two things:

My point is that they are not stuck, but refuse to look outside of the comfortable options. Plus, the lists that did make Corellia cut were decidedly without Boba. Again indicating to me that the lack of options is just a perceived one.

50 minutes ago, Kleeg005 said:

And I usually get *thrashed*, often feeling like I never had a chance. ****, even in casual night games, Rebel Synergy Beef feels utterly insurmountable, let alone a half-decent Force Ace. But I still don't fly Fett - in part because on a casual level he's boringly good, but mostly because on a casual level he *is* an NPE.

So when I talk of alternative scum lists then those are also pretty optimized. As side note, I get the frustration with playing scum and feeling stuck in extended with options against a partially broken meta, or being stuck with Boba and suddenly forced to be the topdog of the night. The choice is of extreme difference.

Look at Euros last year for some cool ideas. How well ships like Zuckuss and 4Lom could do. And then review how quickly this suggestion was dismissed here.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure. But they don't get to take the ultrasafe, meta defining, nearly broken option and then complain about lack of other options (e: while also being taken seriously with their complaints. Of course they can, but it would be self-defeating dishonesty)

I really don't think that's a fair or realistic assessment of tournament play. If you're playing to win tournaments, you're going to take the best option especially if something is broken-good. The whole point of balancing is to avoid the nash equilibrium where players can't change their fleet at all without handing over a lot of power to their opponent.

You're asking tournament players to play more casual stuff because that's how you engage with the game. Yes, yes it is, but not when playing a tournament it's not. Seriously, try taking this argument to someone like Blail Blerg, tell them they're supposed to ignore the good fleets because they're not engaging with the other options of their faction, and should instead fly something weaker but more interesting. Us casuals can play like that because we're not shooting for the gold and indeed it's more fun that way, but no self-respecting tournament player is going to say "You know what, you're right, I'll bring something substantively weaker to the tournament!".

I mean yes, Regen Jedi in their heyday could have flown without R2 Astromechs or Delta-7, but they knew better. It took nerfs from FFG to shake up the meta and get people to fly something else in the faction. Sometimes serious players will fly something exotic in a tournament, but only after having fully vetted it on their own and having a reason to think it'll be strong enough to be worth it.

Tournament play is a different game from casual.

(Also, what's broken-good is still a totally separate discussion from how the faction ought to feel/fly; sorry I'm taking us even further off topic)

To get back onto topic, IMO what's exciting about the Xi is it might make stuff finally viable that's been permanently benched until now. FO has these reserves of crew that haven't had a good outlet. Sure you could finger-wag at tournament players for only running FO Aces or SF Swarms instead of fielding interesting stuff like an upsilon packed with utility crew, but the Upsilon hasn't been a very viable choice for a while and aces or SFs just have a better chance, which is especially important in a tournament. The Xi offers to open up that design space for players at all levels and put those crew to work.

Just now, Wazat said:

If you're playing to win tournaments, you're going to take the best option especially if something is broken-good.

My whole point though is that is not the only, and maybe not even the best, option. Please read the reply to Klegg, it covers some more of it

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

My point is that they are not stuck, but refuse to look outside of the comfortable options. Plus, the lists that did make Corellia cut were decidedly without Boba. Again indicating to me that the lack of options is just a perceived one.

Ah, of course I didn't see this post hiding on the next page! Yea, this is a fair point.

But it's also worth noting that metas can be slightly different in different places. If your opponents are flying different things in the states vs UK, your counterplay is different. But also players can get stuck in a rut flying what they know, especially if it typically brings them success. If that results in a slaughter of bobas in one tournament, first off, good on their opponents. But second, sounds like the Bobas were the meta-definers and the counter-play is focused around picking them apart. That's the hungry meta at work, and I like seeing those counterplay shifts (when they happen, which is admittedly not common).

Players can explore other lists. But if they're trying those out on game nights and seeing them get slaughtered compared to Boba, they may just return to Boba to see if they can fly it a bit differently to counter their counterplays through technique instead of listbuilding. I've seen that a lot; switching lists can come off as a cheap solution that won't really help you, when the real problem might be technique. People tech against a soft counter, and are more likely to switch in the face of a hard counter.

Also I think I've been personally responsible for preventing one or two players in my area from changing lists, by murdering the alternatives they tried out with a fortunate win. Sometimes my casual jank pulls off a win against a better fleet when the player is still trying to feel out how it plays. It's not that I did well, it's that I was slaughtering baby fleets before they could grow into monsters. But sadly those player may have switched back to what they knew to be good because they couldn't get the alternative to consistently work.

@Wazat
I agree with what you describe, ie I think that does happen. But it also happens in part because players tend to pick safe options and don't want to put in the effort to make something work.

Here you go with an example, Sol sixxa, Seevor, Executioner, and 4lom or zuckuss: https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos/1821?ranking_start=2019-08-01&format_id=1&

Newer versions include cartel spacers - a ship that did better in the past year of extended than Koshka.

Cartel Marauders, Torkil and Seevor are still ranked above Boba and Fenn.

The results are there if people just cared to look and try something.

How ridiculous do you think the first person playing Torkil with several Marauders felt and was looked at?!

25 minutes ago, Wazat said:

To get back onto topic, IMO what's exciting about the Xi is it might make stuff finally viable that's been permanently benched until now. FO has these reserves of crew that haven't had a good outlet.

This is one of the best things from this expansion. FO has had 5 crew upgrades that are fairly unexplored. Phasma is obviously great, but the others only see the playmat on occasion. With a presumably vastly cheaper crew carrier, perhaps new synergies can be found that were limited since the Upsilon took up 33% of a list.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Here you go with an example, Sol sixxa, Seevor, Executioner, and 4lom or zuckuss: https://meta.listfortress.com/ship_combos/1821?ranking_start=2019-08-01&format_id=1&

Not to help make your point, but there was also a Lattz, 4-LOM, Koshka list that was tooling around about a year ago doing pretty well in Europe. I suspect it disappeared due to tractor changes making Lattz less relevant.

24 minutes ago, Wazat said:

a slaughter of bobas

I just wanted to point out that this sounds really funny when you think of it in terms of defining a group; i.e. a school of fish, herd of cattle, clowder of cats...

7 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

I just wanted to point out that this sounds really funny when you think of it in terms of defining a group; i.e. a school of fish, herd of cattle, clowder of cats...

It is rather spot on in that sense like murder of crows, an unkindness of ravens, a shiver of sharks, a complaint of karens.

41 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Not to help make your point, but there was also a Lattz, 4-LOM, Koshka list that was tooling around about a year ago doing pretty well in Europe. I suspect it disappeared due to tractor changes making Lattz less relevant.

I saw that list on a stream and my immediate thought was an American judge would've warned it in both games for stalling

I like the casual dismissal of non-Boba lists with a mix of typical euro cheating and american exceptionalism.

Of course there is just a single example, and that single example should be dismissed because in superior places, better judges would rightfully reprimand the only weapon of that player.

Holy crap

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

better judges would rightfully reprimand the only weapon of that player.

Holy crap

I would hope that judges enforce rules against unsporting play and/or cheating. If that's someone's "only weapon" it's probably a bad list.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I like the casual dismissal of non-Boba lists

Of course there is just a single example, and that single example should be dismissed because in superior places, better judges would rightfully reprimand the only weapon of that player.

Holy crap

To be fair on the Lattz, Koshka, 4-LOM list, when I saw Timo fly it, the game went around 45 minutes before a single shot was taken. Neither player was attempting to advance the game state. It wasn't just the Scum player, but the Imperial player, as well.

5 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I would hope that judges enforce rules against unsporting play and/or cheating. If that's someone's "only weapon" it's probably a bad list.

Sarcasm doesn't work well in written form, but did the superior judges and single example and "holy crap" not tipp you off? lol

I'm not even sure what we're mad about any more.

20 hours ago, Wazat said:

Regarding Scum Illicits:

IMO most of this discussion has been interesting, and I like hearing what others have to say. As long as svelok keeps his toxicity out of the conversation, at least.

14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Neither player was attempting to advance the game state. It wasn't just the Scum player, but the Imperial player, as well.

Was he an Ace Player? It seems like it's OK if Ace Players do this.

12 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I'm not even sure what we're mad about any more.

TLJ probably

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

TLJ probably

PURPLE HAIR LADY

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Was he an Ace Player? It seems like it's OK if Ace Players do this.

It was Imperial aces. Vader, Duchess, Whisper.

4-LOM sat is front of Lattz passing his hard stop stress to her which she would cleardoing a 1 straight, bumping into the LOM.com. Koshka started on the other corner and made her way to the other scum.

Whisper sat in a corner doing nothing. Duchess started by himself and ran to the other Imperials similar to Koshka. Vader trekked down a board edge doing slow maneuvers and barrel rolling. Eventually Vader committed and took a shot.

15 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I'm not even sure what we're mad about any more.

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

TLJ probably

Just now, Chumbalaya said:

PURPLE HAIR LADY

Why do you try to further derail and incite this thread? Just leave.

We can discuss in the off topic thread why TLJ is the narratively best made star wars movie. Here you just show that @Wazat should have mentioned you, too

2 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

It was Imperial aces. Vader, Duchess, Whisper.

4-LOM sat is front of Lattz passing his hard stop stress to her which she would cleardoing a 1 straight, bumping into the LOM.com. Koshka started on the other corner and made her way to the other scum.

Whisper sat in a corner doing nothing. Duchess started by himself and ran to the other Imperials similar to Koshka. Vader trekked down a board edge doing slow maneuvers and barrel rolling. Eventually Vader committed and took a shot.

Stalling ace player vs stalling scum player, truly this is what X-Wing is all about.

For the record I think,

Commander Pyre is a neat card...

The Nantex are fine...

and The Last Jedi was the best sequel movie...

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

For the record I think,

Commander Pyre is a neat card...

The Nantex are fine...

and The Last Jedi was the best sequel movie...

Please don't mention tlj, keep the thread on the topic of the xi shuttle, scum faction identity, the viability of non-boba pilots in scum, if pyre is BS, and fortressing.

I think Hux is one crew card that will really benefit from the xi. I expect to see a courier w/hux and 3 SJE's or 2 SJE's and rush if there is room. You could replace the silencers with ordinance carrying or gunner sf's.

14 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

PURPLE HAIR LADY

I stan our soft femme Admirals.