22 minutes ago, costi said:

In every other thread Invader League is used to back an argument, as the biggest tournament in the world. Now it's "hardly a huge sample size"?

It depends on what is being sampled.

Total number of tournaments won by a faction? Very small.

List compositions used by factions in tournament play? Fairly big.

45 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It depends on what is being sampled.

Total number of tournaments won by a faction? Very small.

List compositions used by factions in tournament play? Fairly big.

it is a small sample size no matter what metric you are looking at.

As it is online it twists the results even more simply because most people only collect 1 or 2 factions, in invader league they can then go and play any faction even if they dont own the models.

anyone that tries to make judgements on the game as a whole based of these results is jumping the gun massively and probably doesnt understand statistics,

a small sample size for the number of tournaments won is maybe 30-40 total before you can start to get a look at how the factions are performing. bigger is better though so i would wait till we have about 100 tournaments completed before we start to make judgements.

as for list compostions, I would probably wait the same before calling a meta, 30-40 tournaments before you can start to call the trend and then 100 before you should start making judgments.

anyone calling it now is either a moron or just salty.

8 minutes ago, 5particus said:

As it is online it twists the results even more simply because most people only collect 1 or 2 factions, in invader league they can then go and play any faction even if they dont own the models.

This to me makes the data more valid, because it means players can use what they want, not what they are artificially limited to (either by availability or financial situation).

Also, while Invader League is only 1 tournament, it is by far the biggest and most global tournament there is, which means any data we gather from it carries a bit more weight.

@5particus The population size also matters when referring to the sample size. Here, we don't have really any other tournaments to compare, let alone ones that provide publically viewable army lists for all participants.
Additionally, due to release issues in person tournament lists can be skewed by the availability of products in that given region, or if a unit has been released early.

It's big enough to get some ideas as to what is working for the players that have won Worlds in the past. Many of those players participate in the Invader league, especially as there aren't many in person tournaments occuring right now. So by looking at their Invader league lists we can see what they are finding works for them from a particular army, without the influence of suppl y line limitations.
But yes, in general agree that it isn't the be all end all, but it is the most readily available, and at least looking at over 100 individual total tournament lists can give some idea, which is what I meant by "fairly big."

Its cool guys. My group is only starting so we are not really at high lvl play. I will most likely play 1 or 2 to just to mess around.

@Caimheul1313 I have a very low grasp of the rules (haven't played yet, just building models atm) so this might be a dumb idea, but why not give BARCs/all speeder bikes dodge? The whole idea of a speeder bike is that it's hard to hit and moves fast.

Well, STAPs have Agile 1 and Cover 1...

7 hours ago, Ilostmycactus said:

@Caimheul1313 I have a very low grasp of the rules (haven't played yet, just building models atm) so this might be a dumb idea, but why not give BARCs/all speeder bikes dodge? The whole idea of a speeder bike is that it's hard to hit and moves fast.

Hard to hit and moves fast are represented by Cover and Compulsory move in the rules right now. The Speeder bike is shown to not be "agile" enough to avoid hitting a stationary tree, and the T-47 is shown flying in straight lines, not actively jinking out of the way of AT-AT shots. Agile in place of Cover means that the unit has no extra defences prior to it's activation, as opposed to Cover which is always active. Agile in addition to cover doesn't "feel" right to me and doesn't solve their problems signficantely anyway. Vehicle will always have a hard time justifying theirs costs in an infantry game.

STAPs I'm frankly surprised weren't given Hover honestly, since they are shown to be more maneuverable than speeders.

On 9/12/2020 at 9:32 AM, Caimheul1313 said:

Hard to hit and moves fast are represented by Cover and Compulsory move in the rules right now. The Speeder bike is shown to not be "agile" enough to avoid hitting a stationary tree

Speederbikes certainly are agile enough to avoid hitting stationary trees when the pilot is paying attention.

Dodge makes sense for speeders. More sense than cover in a lot of ways.

But we have already had this discussion.

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Agile in place of Cover

It would be in addition to not in place of.

Removing the existing cover rules on speeders would be a hassle, youd have to change every single speeder card that has cover.

It would be far easier to add a new universal rule for speeders that gives them a free dodge token when they take their compulsory move. And then just give the airspeeder outmaneuver so it can use the dodge token.

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Agile in addition to cover doesn't "feel" right to me and doesn't solve their problems signficantely anyway.

It wouldnt be agile. They would gain a free dodge token when they take their compulsory move.

I know originally I suggested agile but thats too restrictive. They should just get the dodge token for free each turn as a reward for the horrendous rule that is compulsory move.

Or better yet make compulsory move entirely optional. If the speeder takes the free optional move they also gain a free dodge token. If they dont take the free optional move they dont get a free dodge token but instead get the ability to capture objectives that turn.

Compulsory move makes absolutely no sense because all speeders can stop and hover in place. Including airspeeders. Theyre all repulsorlift vehicles.

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Vehicle will always have a hard time justifying theirs costs in an infantry game.

Only if youre closeminded like that.

All small vehicles such as Speederbikes, Droidekas, AT-RTs, etc... should be changed to be able to capture objectives. It is wrong that they cant.

Think about it. What is the purpose of a speederbike? Its to transport scout troopers from point A to point B. Its primary purpose is a personal transport vehicle. Its not intended foremost to be a combat vehicle. Scout troopers on speeder bikes should absolutely be able to capture any objective a trooper unit can. Because getting to objectives quickly and capturing them is their entire purpose for existing, like when the scout troopers in the mandalorian swooped in and grabbed baby yoda.

8 minutes ago, Khobai said:

It wouldnt be agile. They would gain a free dodge token when they take their compulsory move.

I know originally I suggested agile but thats too restrictive. They should just get the dodge token for free each turn

That still leaves the issue where someone could shoot a speeder before it activated and it wouldn't have a dodge token, which, thematically, doesn't make sense because, thematically, speeders never stop moving (thus the compulsory move). Also, a free dodge makes the speeder harder to hit one time, then they are no harder to hit than anything else.

Instead, just add a rule to Speeder X that allows the unit to cancel X hits (maybe also crits) while defending. No need to change or add anything to what's on the cards.

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That still leaves the issue where someone could shoot a speeder before it activated

Youre right. If only there was a way to make sure your speeder bikes activated first and if ordering your activations was part of the overall strategy of the game.

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Instead, just add a rule to Speeder X that allows the unit to cancel X hits (maybe also crits) while defending. No need to change or add anything to what's on the cards.

that rule already exists its called armor. you just renamed a keyword that already exists.

if you want to give speeders armor just call it armor.

the AT-RT has full armor and the rider is exposed. So just give all speeders, tauntauns, dewbacks, etc... full armor. Because the AT-RT sets the precedent that exposed riders are fully armored. it should extend to all exposed riders. the game makes no sense already so why should anything make sense lol.

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Also, a free dodge makes the speeder harder to hit one time, then they are no harder to hit than anything else.

thats why they should also have cover. cover gives them the ability to always be harder to hit. while the dodge token lets them dodge one of the hits that gets past their cover each turn. giving them outmaneuver would also let them dodge a crit each turn.

Giving speederbikes a free dodge token each turn along with the ability to capture objectives would certainly be an improvement over how they are now.

21 minutes ago, Khobai said:

that rule already exists its called armor. you just renamed a keyword that already exists.

Does Impact work against Speeder? If it does I can't find that in the RRG anywher e ...

so you wanna give speeders a better version of the armor keyword?

that doesnt make sense to me.

a speeder should not be harder to kill than something with armor.

for the same reason an AT-RT shouldnt have better armor than an AT-ST

speeders should be on the fragile side just not as fragile as they currently are. A free dodge token is fine. the more important fix is letting them capture objectives. thats the biggest problem with them.

11 minutes ago, Khobai said:

so you wanna give speeders a better version of the armor keyword?

that doesnt make sense to me.

a speeder should not be harder to kill than something with armor.

for the same reason an AT-RT shouldnt have better armor than an AT-ST

speeders should be on the fragile side just not as fragile as they currently are. A free dodge token is fine. the more important fix is letting them capture objectives. thats the biggest problem with them.

I also think they should lose Cover 1. I should have specified that in my post. So it would just be a small improvement to what they already have (as it couldn't be ignored by Sharpshooter or Blast).

And yes, this would technically be better than Armor X, but this is just one idea. There are lots of ways to build a defensive buff into Speeder X without just stapling on a bunch of keywords. For example:

1. Reroll X defense dice
2. Roll X additional defense dice
3. Force the attacker to reroll X attack dice
4. Cancel X hits
5. Cancel X hits or crits
6. Change X defense dice results to Blocks

Or, instead of any of those, just give them a dodge token at the start of the Activation phase, and build Outmaneuver into Speeder X, maybe Nimble as well.

they should get the dodge token when they activate not during the command phase.

making sure you activate your speeders before the opponent activates their units so you get a dodge token is your job as the player and part of the strategy of the game.

its no different than having to activate vader first so he gets his deflect up from the force reflexes dodge token before the opponent can shoot him.

you shouldnt try to sidestep that whole aspect of the game by making things happen outside their normal flow.

2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

making sure you activate your speeders before the opponent activates their units so you get a dodge token is your job as the player and part of the strategy of the game.

That's not currently a thing for Speeders, though. Sure, there will be instances where you want or need to activate Speeders early, but there are no mechanical advantages for doing so. You are arguing that there should be, and I disagree with that assertion because in my opinion that doesn't thematically fit with how Speeders function in-universe.

12 hours ago, Lochlan said:

I also think they should lose Cover 1. I should have specified that in my post. So it would just be a small improvement to what they already have (as it couldn't be ignored by Sharpshooter or Blast).

And yes, this would technically be better than Armor X, but this is just one idea. There are lots of ways to build a defensive buff into Speeder X without just stapling on a bunch of keywords. For example:

1. Reroll X defense dice
2. Roll X additional defense dice
3. Force the attacker to reroll X attack dice
4. Cancel X hits
5. Cancel X hits or crits
6. Change X defense dice results to Blocks

Or, instead of any of those, just give them a dodge token at the start of the Activation phase, and build Outmaneuver into Speeder X, maybe Nimble as well.

A reverse Ram sounds good.

1 hour ago, costi said:

A reverse Ram sounds good.

Yeah, give them a 4 red die melee attack when they reverse into another unit. You have make beeping noises though otherwise it doesn't count.

3 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Yeah, give them a 4 red die melee attack when they reverse into another unit. You have make beeping noises though otherwise it doesn't count.

Repulsor vehicles can't reverse though. #sadface