The clone ATRT is better armored than an AT-ST (same save, same Armor, no Weakspot), it's hard to compete with that.

yep when comparing the AT-RT to the BARC speeder, the AT-RT is mostly the problem NOT the barc speeder. sure the barc speeder could come down a few points. but the AT-RT should not have full armor. not when the pilot is sitting on top completely exposed on all sides.

yet for some reason its fully armored with no weakspot. how does that make any sense?

if the AT-RT actually had rules that made sense, and as a result was better balanced against the BARC speeder, the BARC speeder would be more appealing.

AT-RT should be armor 2 along with a point cost reduction. That goes for the rebel one as well.

2 hours ago, Khobai said:

yep when comparing the AT-RT to the BARC speeder, the AT-RT is mostly the problem NOT the barc speeder. sure the barc speeder could come down a few points. but the AT-RT should not have full armor. not when the pilot is sitting on top completely exposed on all sides.

yet for some reason its fully armored with no weakspot. how does that make any sense?

if the AT-RT actually had rules that made sense, and as a result was better balanced against the BARC speeder, the BARC speeder would be more appealing.

AT-RT should be armor 2 along with a point cost reduction. That goes for the rebel one as well.

Dear devs,

If you want to ensure that Rebels only take Tauntauns in the support slot, reducing the AT-RT to Armor 2 is a great idea.

10 hours ago, Khobai said:

What im saying is completely true.

How are its stats bad? It has better survivability than speeder bikes because of its red saving throw. it does more damage than speeder bikes and its damage doesnt rapidly degrade like the speeders bikes as soon as one of them dies.

Its stats are better than the speeder bikes' in every way. The problem is not its stats. Its stats are absolutely fine. The problem is that its crew cards are a little overcosted in an army full of other units that are broken and undercosted. So lower the crew card cost a few points, fix the broken token sharing shennigans so cloneball isnt the single best way to play clones, add a new commander that incentivizes a non-cloneball playstyle, and the barc speeder will be perfectly fine.

And its not clone panic. Clones have already proven that theyre overpowered compared to other factions. They do nearly everything better than other factions. So of course one should be concerned about buffing any unit of theirs without nerfing the more problematic units first.

Again there is something fundamentally wrong with a faction that can build a top tier tournament list by only taking corps units. Their corps units are way too strong and need to be knocked down a peg. That is why clones have no interest in using anything else because everything else is comparatively worse than their overpowered corps units. They have no reason to take anything else so they dont. And that will remain true until the problem is fixed.

As for the AT-RT being better than the barc speeder, of course its better, it has full armor which makes absolutely no sense on a vehicle where the driver is completely exposed . Both the rebel and clone AT-RT should have armor 2 not straight up armor. the poor barc speeder never had a chance against something in the same category with full armor. The AT-RT having full armor is just a little too good IMO because no other vehicle under 140 points gets full armor. And again the barc speeder shouldnt get stat buffs when its stats are already stronger than what other factions get just because of poor internal balance within its own faction. Again the only thing the barc speeder should get is a slight cost reduction on the crew cards. And then add a commander that does something great for the barc speeders to try and incentivize them in at least one list.

If you want to compare stats between the bikes and the BARC, lets.

Both base units have the same price (75 points) so we should start there, but there are a number of other things the two units share as well. The both have speed 3, Cover 1, Surge to hit, Speeder 1 and the Comms slot.

Here’s where they diverge:

Main weapon: bike(2r2b2w~Impact2) BARC(1r2b1w) = clear winner bikes

Secondary weapon: bike(2b) BARC(1b) = no clear winner as the bikes have more dice, but are only range 1-2 and the BARC is 1-3.

Defence: bikes(white die with surge and 6 health) BARC(red die and 5 health) = again no clear winner. The BARC might have a red defence die, but also have 1 less health. It’s important to note that a surgless red die is only 1 step higher than a surged white die (red die is 1-3 on a D6 and white die is 1-2 on a D6).

Resilience: Bikes lose half their attack value if they take 3 damage. Also at 3 damage, the BARC must make a roll and lose its already lesser attack value(reducing its attack to only 2 dice - should be noted that this only happens on a 1 in 6 chance), or could lose an action (very bad for any unit - 1 in 2 chance to get this result, but is a 2 in 3 chance of losing the action each round), or the BARC could need to spend 2 actions if it needs to move more than just its compulsory (the best result to be sure - 1 in 3 chance) = this one is close as some of the results for the BARC are pretty bad and even when the bike loses one of its 2 bikes, it’s weapon is only 1b die less than the BARC. I will call this a tie, though arguments could be made for either side.

Models: bikes have a lower profile, but let’s just say they’re both pretty easy to hit. The bikes do have an advantage having 2 minis and can keep one bike behind cover, giving them a defensive boost. = clear advantage Bikes

Crew slot: since the bikes don’t have this option, it’s clear the BARC has an advantage here and can take 1 of 3 weapons giving a better range of possibilities and greater damage; However it should be noted these upgrades are not free and at 18, 24 and 28 points these weapons are pricey for a faction starved for points. So with a Crew upgrade the BARC could be 93, 99 or 103 points for a 3 or 4 die boost to its 3 die main weapon (total of 6 or 7 dice compared to the bikes native 6). = this is an advantage for the BARC, but only in that it can have an assortment of weapon keywords like Ion or Impact, though the bikes already start with Impact 2, so I don’t see this as a big advantage.

Overall: the Bikes still come out ahead with a better main weapon and survivability from the 2 mini benefit. The Crew slot On the BARC seems nice but drives the unit price to a really high 100 point total and for fast flankers that die quickly when driven into enemy territory (which is inevitable) it’s really not worth it.

Hope this helps. Let me know if I missed anything and if you want to do the what Strategy/Tactics to use vrs Republic post, let me know.

11 hours ago, Khobai said:

What im saying is completely true.

How are its stats bad? It has better survivability than speeder bikes because of its red saving throw. it does more damage than speeder bikes and its damage doesnt rapidly degrade like the speeders bikes as soon as one of them dies.

Its stats are better than the speeder bikes' in every way. The problem is not its stats. Its stats are absolutely fine. The problem is that its crew cards are a little overcosted in an army full of other units that are broken and undercosted. So lower the crew card cost a few points, fix the broken token sharing shennigans so cloneball isnt the single best way to play clones, add a new commander that incentivizes a non-cloneball playstyle, and the barc speeder will be perfectly fine.

And its not clone panic. Clones have already proven that theyre overpowered compared to other factions. They do nearly everything better than other factions. So of course one should be concerned about buffing any unit of theirs without nerfing the more problematic units first.

Again there is something fundamentally wrong with a faction that can build a top tier tournament list by only taking corps units. Their corps units are way too strong and need to be knocked down a peg. That is why clones have no interest in using anything else because everything else is comparatively worse than their overpowered corps units. They have no reason to take anything else so they dont. And that will remain true until the problem is fixed.

As for the AT-RT being better than the barc speeder, of course its better, it has full armor which makes absolutely no sense on a vehicle where the driver is completely exposed . Both the rebel and clone AT-RT should have armor 2 not straight up armor. the poor barc speeder never had a chance against something in the same category with full armor. The AT-RT having full armor is just a little too good IMO because no other vehicle under 140 points gets full armor. And again the barc speeder shouldnt get stat buffs when its stats are already stronger than what other factions get just because of poor internal balance within its own faction. Again the only thing the barc speeder should get is a slight cost reduction on the crew cards. And then add a commander that does something great for the barc speeders to try and incentivize them in at least one list.

Rebs/Imps/Droids have particular units spammed in tournaments as well.

Rebs: snipers and tauns, most of their heroes

Imps: snipers and shores, iden and veers

CIS: B1 order spam, plus tank

I really like how CIS and GAR have faction wide rules/effects. Makes me wish Rebs and Imps had something similar, rather than just some heroes that spam aims or dodges.

13 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

I really like how CIS and GAR have faction wide rules/effects. Makes me wish Rebs and Imps had something similar, rather than just some heroes that spam aims or dodges.

Honestly I think this is why I'm so drawn to CIS. The faction identity is just so much fun.

On 8/31/2020 at 10:46 PM, Khobai said:

And the corps units and strike teams need to be nerfed so spamming corps units and strike teams isnt always the best way to play GAR.

I think what you mean to imply is that GAR needs more options to play. Currently, there are 2 Corps units, one Heavy, one Support, one Operative, two Commanders, and now one Special Forces. Considering this, it makes sense that the only real way to build would be to spam Corps units. If you run Obi-wan and the Saber Tank, that's over half of your army cost (once upgraded) so all you've really got room for is Corps units. There's just not enough variety in the GAR forces right now, which is a problem that both Rebels and Empire had at one point.

I can't really say it's fair to say that GAR has no army variety when it comes to comp because there's just not much to work with at the moment. Give it another year or so and we'll see more units released for both GAR and Seps and they will become a more varied army. Let's not start nerfing things till there's some other options to use.

@evo454 GAR has two operatives, actually. I know it's not as common, but they can take Padme Amidala as part of their army, not just R2D2.

(Jokes aside, she's quite good)

2 hours ago, Kirjath08 said:

@evo454 GAR has two operatives, actually. I know it's not as common, but they can take Padme Amidala as part of their army, not just R2D2.

(Jokes aside, she's quite good)

Imma be real, I 100% forgot that R2-D2 was even in this game. I don't play rebels and my usual game partner doesn't have him so I just forgot about him entirely!

7 hours ago, FSD said:

Dear devs,

If you want to ensure that Rebels only take Tauntauns in the support slot, reducing the AT-RT to Armor 2 is a great idea.

Reducing the AT-RT to Armor 2 IS a great idea.

So is nerfing tauntauns.

Just because the AT-RT should be Armor 2 doesnt mean its okay for Tauntauns to keep their 7 actions.

Both of those units make no sense for different reasons and both should be fixed. If the game is properly balanced there should be no such thing as compulsory units.

Both the rebel and imperial factions need complete overhauls at this point. They should also add unique game mechanics for both rebels and imperials while theyre at it.

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Overall: the Bikes still come out ahead with a better main weapon and survivability from the 2 mini benefit. The Crew slot On the BARC seems nice but drives the unit price to a really high 100 point total and for fast flankers that die quickly when driven into enemy territory (which is inevitable) it’s really not worth it.

As far as stats go the BARC is way better than speeder bikes for the simple fact that its weapon doesnt degrade quickly when it suffers damage. You can kill one bike and literally ignore the other bike for the rest of the game because three dice cant hurt anything. The BARC stays threatening for longer.

The BARC needs a cost reduction. But its stats are absolutely better than the speeder bikes' stats. So it should still cost somewhere in between what speeder bikes cost and what the BARC currently costs. 85ish points is probably fine for the BARC with its twin blaster crew card.

But even with a cost reduction the BARC will still never be used because the AT-RT makes no sense. The AT-RT needs to be reworked so both the AT-RT and BARC have a place in the army.

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I think what you mean to imply is that GAR needs more options to play.

No GAR needs its corps units nerfed. Thats what I meant to imply.

Its corps units are so good that there is no reason for it to take the other options it already has available let alone any future options.

The faction needs to be changed so that the best way to play it isnt spamming overpowered corps units and cheap activations like R2 and arc troopers.

GAR is supposed to be an elite faction with few activations so you need to gut its ability to spam 10-11 activations. And that involves fixing the broken corps units, R2, and strike teams in general. Thats what you do first.

7 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Rebs/Imps/Droids have particular units spammed in tournaments as well.

Rebs: snipers and tauns, most of their heroes

Imps: snipers and shores, iden and veers

CIS: B1 order spam, plus tank

I really like how CIS and GAR have faction wide rules/effects. Makes me wish Rebs and Imps had something similar, rather than just some heroes that spam aims or dodges.

rebels/imperials dont just spam corps units and strike teams though. they use other units as well like operatives, support units, and special forces.

what makes GAR messed up is theyre winning tournaments with just corps units.

their corps units are way overpowered. they do ridiculous amounts of damage for basic units.

7 hours ago, lologrelol said:

Imps: snipers and shores, iden and veers

How do you spam unique units? I'll grant you that they are good and commonly taken in lists, but that is different than spam.

3 minutes ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

How do you spam unique units? I'll grant you that they are good and commonly taken in lists, but that is different than spam.

I usually take 3 Cassians in my list, due to the operative rules. He does really well in softening up a unit for the other 2 Cassians. K-2S0 gives them all dodges and aim tokens.

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No GAR needs its corps units nerfed. Thats what I meant to imply.

Its corps units are so good that there is no reason for it to take the other options it already has available let alone any future options.

The faction needs to be changed so that the best way to play it isnt spamming overpowered corps units and cheap activations like R2 and arc troopers.

@Khobai

This is really just your opinion and your opinion doesn't necessitate them nerfing units. I, and other people too, actually like how they designed the CW factions troopers. Having special rules such as droid trooper and clone trooper is great design and it will probably keep them relevant throughout the life cycle of the game.

6 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:

This is really just your opinion and your opinion doesn't necessitate them nerfing units

That may be so, but expect it to be forced down your throat with no real reason why.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

As far as stats go the BARC is way better than speeder bikes for the simple fact that its weapon doesnt degrade quickly when it suffers damage. You can kill one bike and literally ignore the other bike for the rest of the game because three dice cant hurt anything. The BARC stays threatening for longer.

The BARC needs a cost reduction. But its stats are absolutely better than the speeder bikes' stats. So it should still cost somewhere in between what speeder bikes cost and what the BARC currently costs. 85ish points is probably fine for the BARC with its twin blaster crew card.

But even with a cost reduction the BARC will still never be used because the AT-RT makes no sense. The AT-RT needs to be reworked so both the AT-RT and BARC have a place in the army.

A single bike is still a horrible nuisance. It may not be able to do the damage of a double rainbow, but a single rainbow with surge to hit should not be underestimated. You’ve also mentioned that bikes are not used anymore, which isn’t true. Though not as ubiquitous as many spammed units like snipers or Tauns, it has seen a resurgence in the competitive scene. Before covid there was a bike list winning tournaments in the European circuit. BARCs are seen nowhere.

At 75 points for the base unit, the BARC is crap compared to bikes, even with the bike losing half its firepower. The truth is, when the BARC reaches its threshold (same as the bikes coincidentally), it gains a large negative which as I illustrated can also be reducing firepower or an action. Think about using bikes and either not having the maneuverability because you only get your mandatory move or because you have lost one of your two actions. It means you can’t move out of harms way if you need to, nor can you move so that you can negate cover from your target. On top of that, the BARC would only have 2 health left when it hits Resilience, and if it has a lack of mobility, it certainly will be targeted more easily.

I think you may have missed those consequences that the BARC actually faces. Both units don’t do well when they’ve hit their resilience threshold. The problem is not exclusive to bikes. Also, thinking that a single rainbow makes it ignorable, is very shortsighted. TBH the first faction I played was Empire, and I’m very familiar with bikes. Even when reduced, if my opponent ignored my bikes, that would cost them, a lot. Since bikes don’t lose actions or maneuverability, they can be used to disrupt the back line of an enemy through displacement and by shooting things out of cover by going around. Even only 3 dice is very damaging when firing at something out of cover and thanks to that single bike even your other units should be able to shoot a displaced unit that is now out of cover. But the thing that makes bikes so good is everything they get without the need of add on’s for one low price. Remember the BARC starts with only 1b die more than a bike unit that has lost one bike. The BARC’s base price can easily be reduced by 10-15 points, especially if they don’t decrease the crew upgrades.

As for the AT-RT, I’ve been purposely been not talking about it, as I believe the Republic version is crap, but I’ve been waiting for others to use it a bit an give their opinion, especially if they’ve frequently played with the Rebel version. AT-RTs need full armour, without question. I’ve played and watched too many of them get one shotted. Without full armour they would be ridiculously out matched and out gunned. AT-RTs play a lot like Heavy units, they’re super visible and hard to get cover for, but don’t have a heavy’ s level of firepower. 5b dice is not much, but adding surge to crit makes it possible for their fire to get through cover. Consider the average number of hits with surge to hit for 5b would be 3.125, or 1 after heavy cover. Not great for a unit that is targeted like a Heavy, but doesn’t have anywhere near the health. Adding surge to crit means you may get more through cover than 1. Don’t forget the 5b that the RT generally has is only 1 more black die than a base unit of rebels which are just considered a meh unit without a heavy and are usually relegated to capping the back objective. The only thing I’m not sure of is the surge to defence. It may make more of a difference and allow the Republic AT-RT to remain on the table another turn (or two if you’re lucky). Another issue is the other idiotic additions that were made to the Republic AT-RT. It’s like the Devs were scrambling to give the Republic version something different and felt that the surge to crit would be too powerful, but just adding the defensive surge wasn’t enough, so the slapped on a couple of extras and thought that would either disguise it or somehow make up for the difference, but then thought, “well it does have more than the rebel version, so it has to cost more”. The only slightly improved pilot’s weapon (only added 1 more die and Critical and Impact 1) and Scout 1 do not equal the removal of native surge to crit, even with surge to defense, especially if they’re going to up the price by 10 points. The pilot’s weapon won’t be used if Rotaries are and Scout 1 is a 2 point upgrade, but what value would a native surge to crit be? But like I said, the final verdict is still tbd, I could be wrong and the surge to defence could make enough of a difference. We’ll have to wait and see.

Anyway, I digress, but I don’t think you and I will see eye to eye on any of these units, but I hope you see a bit of what I’m talking about from the other side’s point of view, but if you still don’t see what I’m saying, I wish you well and my offer still stands to go over strategies against these units you think of as so OP.

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AT-RTs need full armour, without question.

the dewback is worse off than the AT-RT. but you dont see me saying the dewback should have full armor. why? because it makes no sense for a guy riding a dewback whos exposed on all sides to have full armor. armor 1 is fine for the dewback. The dewback isnt bad because it doesnt have full armor. its bad because spur is a terrible rule, its courage is too low to even use spur, and its overcosted by at least 20 points.

the AT-RT should absolutely not have full armor either because the driver is completely exposed on all sides. that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of armor. that is unarmored. quite frankly even giving the AT-RT armor 2 is a stretch but thats all it should have. It should have armor 2 and its cost should be reduced accordingly.

i understand why you want it to have full armor. but what you want and what it should have arnt the same thing.

The only reason AT-RTs are played like heavy units is because they have full armor. If you take away their full armor theyll just have to be played differently. Theyll simply have to adapt to the changing rules. But AT-RTs should not have full armor when the driver isnt even armored. Nothing about that makes any sense whatsoever.

In fact based on the AT-RT getting full armor you could make a strong argument that everything else in the game should have full armor. Because most other things in the game are just as exposed as the AT-RT pilot is. Give full armor to my snowtroopers ill play them like heavy units then too. My speeder bikes could use full armor also. AT-RTs having straight up armor is one of the most ridiculous things in the game.

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At 75 points for the base unit, the BARC is crap compared to bikes

to be fair the BARC hasnt gotten the same cost reduction bikes got yet.

obviously the BARC's cost needs to come down by about 10-15 points. Nobody is saying otherwise. But as far as stats go I think its stats are fine compared to other speeders. Its just its point cost that isnt right.

The problem is even if you reduce the cost of the BARC to where it should be, its still straight up worse than the AT-RT because the AT-RT gets its nonsensical magic armor.

the AT-RT having full armor creates a huge internal balance problem because the BARC can never compete with the AT-RT on any level, even after the BARC's points cost is lowered to the correct value. Because armor is a way stronger keyword than anything the BARC speeder gets.

But since the BARC pilot is completely exposed, shouldnt the BARC speeder get full armor too? lets just give everything full armor. because that makes just as little sense as the AT-RT.

1 hour ago, SnooSnarry said:

@Khobai

This is really just your opinion and your opinion doesn't necessitate them nerfing units. I, and other people too, actually like how they designed the CW factions troopers. Having special rules such as droid trooper and clone trooper is great design and it will probably keep them relevant throughout the life cycle of the game.

its not my opinion though. its a provable fact that clone troopers are better than rebel troopers or stormtroopers.

they have better stats and better macro rules with token sharing and fire support.

GAR corps units are undeniably better than the corps units of other factions.

I like how they designed the CW factions too but giving clones and droids macro rules and not giving the same to imperials and rebels puts the latter factions at a disadvantage.

If they want to add macro rules for rebels and imperials that would be great and it would absolutely change my opinion of GAR being unbalanced since rebels and imperials would have their own macro mechanics on the same level as token sharing and fire support. But sadly right now that isnt the case.

14 minutes ago, Khobai said:

the dewback is worse off than the AT-RT. but you dont see me saying the dewback should have full armor. why? because it makes no sense for a guy riding a dewback whos exposed on all sides to have full armor. armor 1 is fine for the dewback. The dewback isnt bad because it doesnt have full armor. its bad because spur is a terrible rule, its courage is too low to properly use spur, and its way overcosted.

the AT-RT should absolutely not have full armor either because the driver is completely exposed on all sides. that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of armor. that is unarmored. quite frankly even giving the AT-RT armor 2 is a stretch but thats all it should have. It should have armor 2 and its cost should be reduced accordingly.

i understand why you want it to have full armor. but what you want and what it should have arnt the same thing.

AT-RTs are played like heavy units because they have full armor. If you take away their full armor they will have to be played differently. You simply have to adapt to the changing rules. But AT-RTs should not have full armor when the driver isnt even armored. Nothing about that makes any sense.

So your contention is that AT-RTs shouldn’t have full armour because of how they look and not for balance, game play or fun?

I hate to tell you, but there are a lot of odd things like that in Legion, not just the RTs.

Why do the AT-RTs use white defense dice? Normal clones use red, does riding an AT-RT somehow make their armour weaker?

Why do the Deathtroopers get a defensive surge? Does black paint really provide better resilience?

Why does the AT-ST use white defense dice? Is the metal thinner than the GAV tank?

Why do Jedi types use red defense dice? Can they really parry explosions or are their robes reinforced?

Though the devs do a decent Job and are incredibly creative, at some point it comes down to balance, game play and fun. If the RTs are not survivable it doesn’t make them very fun and you’re also assuming that the RTs didn’t have Armour 1 or 2 at some point during development, but was changed to full just to be balanced. Legion isn’t a perfect game, nor a perfect recreation of units. If the RTs were closer to the ones depicted in the movie and animated shows, they would no doubt be more mobile and move more like bikes, but some things have to be fudged to fit into the game system all the while trying to keep them balanced and fun.

Now as far as balance goes, the devs don’t often get it right. That’s why we have point corrections etc. I totally agree that the Dewback needs some help. If they were given full armour, I totally wouldn’t be opposed. If it makes the unit fun to play and balanced, what’s the big deal really? Though, as someone who is also sometimes OCD, I get it, you want it to be exactly like the movie and to make sense, but in the end, having fun is the most important thing. It is a game after all and you could just say that the pilot is moving in such a way to keep the front armoured plate of the RT in between himself and the enemy. It’s plausible if not very likely (since you can’t keep it between you and every attacker), but if you’re that focused on the idea, it’s as good a reason as any for a game if not reality.

5 hours ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

How do you spam unique units? I'll grant you that they are good and commonly taken in lists, but that is different than spam.

Obviously I meant they are spammed by being taken by most players in those factions at tournaments.

Semantics bro.

7 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

So your contention is that AT-RTs shouldn’t have full armour because of how they look and not for balance, game play or fun?

I hate to tell you, but there are a lot of odd things like that in Legion, not just the RTs.

Why do the AT-RTs use white defense dice? Normal clones use red, does riding an AT-RT somehow make their armour weaker?

Why do the Deathtroopers get a defensive surge? Does black paint really provide better resilience?

Why does the AT-ST use white defense dice? Is the metal thinner than the GAV tank?

Why do Jedi types use red defense dice? Can they really parry explosions or are their robes reinforced?

Though the devs do a decent Job and are incredibly creative, at some point it comes down to balance, game play and fun. If the RTs are not survivable it doesn’t make them very fun and you’re also assuming that the RTs didn’t have Armour 1 or 2 at some point during development, but was changed to full just to be balanced. Legion isn’t a perfect game, nor a perfect recreation of units. If the RTs were closer to the ones depicted in the movie and animated shows, they would no doubt be more mobile and move more like bikes, but some things have to be fudged to fit into the game system all the while trying to keep them balanced and fun.

Now as far as balance goes, the devs don’t often get it right. That’s why we have point corrections etc. I totally agree that the Dewback needs some help. If they were given full armour, I totally wouldn’t be opposed. If it makes the unit fun to play and balanced, what’s the big deal really? Though, as someone who is also sometimes OCD, I get it, you want it to be exactly like the movie and to make sense, but in the end, having fun is the most important thing. It is a game after all and you could just say that the pilot is moving in such a way to keep the front armoured plate of the RT in between himself and the enemy. It’s plausible if not very likely (since you can’t keep it between you and every attacker), but if you’re that focused on the idea, it’s as good a reason as any for a game if not reality.

Balance is necessary, but unit stats need to make some sort of sense. The full armor on the AT-RT just doesn't, when all other things with full armor in the game are heavy vehicles and tanks.

It gets even more ridiculous when you look at the clone version.

An AT-ST has white surge defense, Armor and Weakspot 1 in the back. A clone AT-RT has the same save, also has Armor but no Weakspot. So, an exposed guy in a shirt is tougher that a fully armored vehicle, which in the movies required a lot of effort to take down?

It simply breaks suspension of disbelief, at least for me.

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Why do the AT-RTs use white defense dice? Normal clones use red, does riding an AT-RT somehow make their armour weaker?

Their armor isnt weaker though. They have the armor keyword.

A white saving throw with the armor keyword is statistically better than a red saving throw without the armor keyword. because armor negates all regular hits.

I would be perfectly fine with AT-RTs getting a red defense die (without the defensive surge) if they didnt have full armor. That would actually make more sense.

For example the dewback is armor 1 with a red defense die. the AT-RT could certainly be armor 2 with a red defense die and thatd be fine. it should not however have full armor with no weak spots when the pilot is completely exposed. that makes absolutely no sense. The AT-RT should not be better armored than an AT-ST when the pilot is essentially unprotected.

And using the argument that other things dont make sense so its okay for the AT-RT to not make sense is a silly argument. Because all the other things that dont make sense should also be fixed. For example a tauntaun having 7 actions makes absolutely no sense and should be fixed too. Everything that doesnt make sense should be fixed. Because none of it is okay. Its just outside the scope of this topic to fix everything thats wrong with the game and this particular topic is only focusing on why the BARC speeder is so bad compared to the AT-RT. Its specifically because the AT-RT has full armor and the BARC speeder cant ever compete with that.

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If the RTs are not survivable it doesn’t make them very fun

That works both ways. Units that dont make sense arnt fun to play against either.

Tauntauns are fun to play against said no one ever.

I also dont have fun playing against AT-RTs with full armor because it ruins my sense of belief when they have better armor than my AT-ST.

Its all a balancing act and I think armor 2 with a red saving throw (and no surge) is a reasonable compromise.

16 hours ago, Khobai said:

rebels/imperials dont just spam corps units and strike teams though. they use other units as well like operatives, support units, and special forces.

what makes GAR messed up is theyre winning tournaments with just corps units.

Last summer, my tournament winning list consisted of a generic officer, 6x Stormies, 3x snipers, and 3x E-Webs. It was called "Meta Spam" and had 13 activations. A similar list took second at Warfaire Weekend 2019. It's really no different in structure than the lists you are complaining about, which feature a lot more than corps units, even if corps units are the backbone of GAR lists. (as they should be) Ironically, you're complaining about corps spam and ARC strike teams, when strike teams are one of the few units that stand a chance of displacing corps units from lists.

5 hours ago, Khobai said:

Tauntauns are fun to play against said no one ever.

They are when I have 3 squads of droidekas blasting at them

I too agree that the AT-RT shouldn't have full armor.

I think anything where the rider/pilot is exposed shouldn't have full armor.

It just makes more sense that way.

7 hours ago, costi said:

It simply breaks suspension of disbelief, at least for me.

In my opinion, the vertical component of distances between units being ignored for measuring ranges is more common an occurrence in Legion games than the AT-RT, and far more damaging to any sort of suspension of disbelief.

AT-RTs having full armor with an exposed pilot confuses me too but if we want to compare them to AT-STs remember only one was taken down by a bunch of 3' bears using sticks and rocks.