We got an announcement of an Expansion Pack with Pass Tokens. Michael Gernes told in an interview, that we'll see a new mechanic (Armada 1.5) where fleets with lower activation count receive a number of Pass Tokens. (We can only guess the number of tokens right now. But there are plenty in the pack.) These news were celebrated in my Armada chat. But I feel sad about it, and this is why.

A list with a higher number of smaller ships gives one crucial benefit*. I'm able to move after my opponent. But normally I want to slow down only in the first half of the game (~ round 1-3). After the first encounter with the enemy I normally want to move first and a higher number of activation is not a benefit per se.

If I can manage to be MSU first player I may move (round X) and attack (round X+1) before my opponent may react. And many players complain about that as a kind of design flaw. But to be honest I pay a price for that benefit, or I even pay two. If my list wants to be able to "last-first" then I need a high bid. And I have to play an objective of my opponent's choice.

It may depend on the number of Pass Tokens the Armada 1.5 rules will give. But I think Pass Tokens are not needed and won't do good at all. The last few games I played a Raddus-doll-list. Profundity with Garel's Honor in its hangar and Aspiration in hyperspace with two squadrons in its hangar. Only 1 activation until Raddus-drop, normally at the start of round 3. It was fun to play and I more often than not crushed my opponent after deploying all my ships. If I imagine, that I would even get some pass tokens because of having less activations than my opponent, that would feel highly unfair! It would mean that I could also outwait some or all of my opponents moves (in round 2), denying him to get some attacks before I will strike back.

It seems to me, that big ships should be buffed even further and a whole playstyle will be drying out. We will see two successfull archetypes: Big ships with squadrons (BS+S) and More Big Schips without Squadrons (BS-S). I take a look at the Fleet Starters with 1 medium and 2 smalls for the new factions and wonder what they will be able to achieve.

For that I don't get the enthusiasm for Pass Tokens and " I have a really bad feeling about this "!

* More ships give you also more deployments and more attacks, to drill through defense tokens, but both can be done cheaper with squadrons.

Personally, I would hold off on judgement until we know exactly how the new mechanic works.

6 minutes ago, bkcammack said:

Personally, I would hold off on judgement until we know exactly how the new mechanic works.

We know how Pass Tokens work. Gernes told us that a fleet will get a certain number of Pass Tokens for the whole game. It's an educated guess that lists with a lower activation count will recieve some tokens. We only don't know how many tokens. But you don't need many because they are mostly of any value in rounds 2 and 3.

I agree with your MSU concerns. But just wait how it really works. Maybe the pass token may be played with a disadvantage. For example you may use the token, but at the same time you are giving your opponent 20 Points for using it. Or you can use only one pass token every round. I guess the main goal is to reduce the impact that flotillas have on activations.

12 minutes ago, Triangular said:

We know how Pass Tokens work. Gernes told us that a fleet will get a certain number of Pass Tokens for the whole game. It's an educated guess that lists with a lower activation count will recieve some tokens. We only don't know how many tokens. But you don't need many because they are mostly of any value in rounds 2 and 3.

There might be some mechanics around the pass tokens that will pay the price (I'm not confident about that since the released the SAd, though).

I played around an idea that you could only pass once per ship at best and it would cost, let's say, a command dial. That way, high activations may still have the advantage they are paying for if they pay the "extra" cost OR they could just take advantage of their natural activation advantage while low activation fleet must pay for get it even.

That way SAd would be still a good card but not a must. Also, there is a limited compensation as one ship (like the SSD) may just get certain extra fake activation and we know they never ever wanted the SSD to have the last word or Pryce would work on it. So in the low end, there wouldn't be much to do regarding activations and in the high end you could keep the advantage. As long as the difference is not huge, the fleet with less activations may get even or at least force it's opponent to pay an extra cost that might hurt him more than you. Big ships, for example, have access to extra command tokens to compensate discarding a dial (or paying for upgrade card cost that may help with that) while for small ships the dial is basically all they have. It may enhance some fleet commands card but that offtopic.

I mean, maybe discarding a dial (and not revealing a new one) may not be enough extra cost, but the idea is to add a cost to not give activations for free to bigger ships but make it asymmetrical in order to give interesting choices and not just a "pass-pass" dilemma. They may just put a cost and forbid small ships for using that rule.

Anyway, I'm not excited either about the pass token idea. I'd like to see some improvement in that way but I also like the fact that the activation advantage and the first-last is a tactical tool in the player's box.

I think activation for free is a bad idea enough that they will notice and don't just give pass tokens to ISDs so they can just sit and shoot Demo while it's closing in. Also, no matter the mechanic around, playing this just saying "on you-on you" is gonna bother me a lot.

But I still hope the change will end being something good.

28 minutes ago, spike2109 said:

. I guess the main goal is to reduce the impact that flotillas have on activations.

Increase their cost, reduce them to 1 or completely ban them. No, I doubt they're aiming to flotillas.

This reminds me of when people thought Raid would be OP before all the rules were released.

3 hours ago, Triangular said:

We know how Pass Tokens work.

Not fully and that's the important part.

3 hours ago, Triangular said:

Gernes told us that a fleet will get a certain number of Pass Tokens for the whole game. It's an educated guess that lists with a lower activation count will recieve some tokens.

Right but without knowing HOW they work this could mean anything.

3 hours ago, Triangular said:

We only don't know how many tokens. But you don't need many because they are mostly of any value in rounds 2 and 3.

The full rules arent revealed yet.

I'm going to trust @geek19 's opinion.

He likes playing MSU; he knows the full rules due to being a playtester. And he said before that he likes what these tokens do.

The sky hasn't fallen. Not yet, anyway.

1 hour ago, Gilarius said:

I'm going to trust @geek19 's opinion.

He likes playing MSU; he knows the full rules due to being a playtester. And he said before that he likes what these tokens do.

The sky hasn't fallen. Not yet, anyway.

Meh, dunno, he likes Leia too.

🤭

43 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Meh, dunno, he likes Leia too.

🤭

And?

I like Leia too!

2 hours ago, Gilarius said:

I'm going to trust @geek19 's opinion.

He likes playing MSU; he knows the full rules due to being a playtester. And he said before that he likes what these tokens do.

The sky hasn't fallen. Not yet, anyway.

All good, but its still Geek....

26 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

And?

I like Leia too!

Our numbers are many! We are legion!

10 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Our numbers are many! We are legion!

Plus she's now 10 pts more likable....why that's practically adorable!

If I remember correctly in an interview they said these new pass tokens would be 1 time use. So as others have said we dont fully know how this new pass mechanic will work. Cant really judge it until we know more

2 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Our numbers are many! We are legion!

There are dozens of us! Dozens!

2 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Our numbers are many! We are legion!

We are Armada. Legion is next door.

As someone in the Chicago area who knows many of the playtesters, I will just say that we are in good hands. They are intelligent people, regardless of their Armada acumen. I’ve learned so much at their hands (or templates!) and I would respectfully suggest we all take a deep breath and give them a chance to do their magic. They want the same thing we do- a vibrant, diverse, game with years of life in it.

I’m so excited for the future of this “lifestyle” game.

Stay safe everyone!!!

It's not easy to discuss about future things to come if there is a limited access to information. And if you try to guess things to come there's always someone (let's say a playtester) knowing more, grinning much, but saying less.

But I'm okay with the bit of information I got here, that they won't just spread a bunch of Pass Tokens over us and hope for good. But now I really wonder what kind of magic they will do with five pass tokens in the dial pack (which I won't buy, having dozens of dials unused).

If it means that the strategy of bringing a pair of flotillas primarily to bump up your activations is obsolete then I welcome it. I find myself forced in to it and it feels artificial.

10 hours ago, sarumanthewhite said:

As someone in the Chicago area who knows many of the playtesters, I will just say that we are in good hands. They are intelligent people, regardless of their Armada acumen. I’ve learned so much at their hands (or templates!) and I would respectfully suggest we all take a deep breath and give them a chance to do their magic. They want the same thing we do- a vibrant, diverse, game with years of life in it.

Noone said they are unintelligent, but it must be allowed to voice opinions other than "everything is so great". I for one did not see much "magic" since the release of the SSD. The only new mechanic that did not decrease enjoyment of the game for me is Salvo - which is in itself a blow to MSU lists - so do not think I am pro MSU biased here. The only small issue I have with Salvo is that it sometimes completely discourages making an attack against a Salvo equipped ship at all, that feels bad and takes away from the fun of the game.

My issue is that I think most new mechanics and ships harmed the game in that they made it less fun (for me and others) and introduced imbalance:
Less Fun: SSD,SH (for both players) because I do not enjoy games that revolve around very few ship activations as I at least (and I now enough others of the same opinion) think the resulting games are boring. Its also not very exciting to watch these ships snail across the board. They are also bad for tournament settings and list variety due to the point fortress effect.
Less Fun: Moralo (for the opponent) ... it was discussed plenty.
Less Fun: Raddus,Sloane (for the opponent) ... they take to much ability to react and defend away from the opponent.
Bad for balance: Pryce/SA/Bail ... cheap way of greatly empowering large activations at no skill overhead (=its easy to use).
Bad for balance: Onager/Extreme Range ... I doubted this mechanic when it was announced and was told to wait and see how it does ... well I waited and saw and am convinced that it is really really very bad for balance and ship variety. I would be glad to argue this point further but dont want to spam this post now.

I am conviced some of these changes were triggered by certain playtesters repeatedly complaining about "last-firsting". I personally dont like this mechanic thematically, but never had much issue with it from a game mechanics perspective until the arrival of SAd/Pryce/Bail which allowed for insanly powerful last-first activations with large ships (which were rare earlier, at least in my meta ... usually it was a Demo or MC30 that did the last firsting, and as it has been mentioned such lists suffer against many other lists - eg anti-ship squad-based lists). Further I do not think that the current state is better in any way, I would even argue towards worse.

Now game designers talk about introducing one-time-use pass tokens (likely for low activation lists). The only instance were this will not mess even further with the activation system would be if the number of pass tokens would never prohibit or enable a last-first, however that would be rather pointless to introduce, so I would assume that they are designed to prohibit a last-first, but only for a limited number of turns (one or maybe even two). We know how the pass mechanic works for the SSD, its likely those tokens will be based off that, so if a ship would activate you instead discard a pass token. If it works like that it is actually much worse than Pryce was... You would be able to delay a significant number of activations in a turn of your choice that can be decided on DURING THE GAME. Pryce forced a choice after deployment and only delayed a single activation. These pass tokens are likely to delay multiple activations and during any turn of your choice ... see a frisky MC30 approaching this turn? pass, take the last activation from it, shoot it, maybe get shot a bit in return, but the MC30 is likely dying and was useless in any case... extrapolate from that example.
Further, what if your low activation list goes first? Using the pass tokens you may be able to delay a large activation for a significant time and then also go first next turn. You may think: "well its likely only during a single turn", but we saw the impact of Pryce and Bail, and this will have a larger impact on the game state. I cannot actually conceive of good reasons to create lists with more than say 3 activations anymore.

Now I dont want to be all negative, I also think the limit of 4 aces per lists is a very good one, hopefully it will lead to more squad variety. I do not think it adressed the issues most casual player had with the squad game (too fidgety) or that it will reduce the amount of squad points that will be used in most competitive lists, but maybe that was not what FFG was going for which is fine, personally I think the ace restriction is sufficient.

Summing up: I appreciate the effort and heart that is poured into this game by all involved, but an honest look at issues from the perspective of some players outside your little bubble should be appreciated and not scoffed at, especially if they are handed out freely on this open forum.

Cheers and thanks @Triangular .

14 hours ago, Triangular said:

It's not easy to discuss about future things to come if there is a limited access to information. And if you try to guess things to come there's always someone (let's say a playtester) knowing more, grinning much, but saying less.

But I'm okay with the bit of information I got here, that they won't just spread a bunch of Pass Tokens over us and hope for good. But now I really wonder what kind of magic they will do with five pass tokens in the dial pack (which I won't buy, having dozens of dials unused).

Totally agree and I enjoyed reading your comments as sort of a “What If” scenario based on the information at hand. Feeding it to some of the playtesters in a very thoughtful way (which you did) is an even better idea. I find myself in the same boat, wanting to react to the information at hand but realizing that I don’t have all the facts... 😀

I chuckled at your comment about “...knowing more, grinning much, but saying less.”- nicely done.

If they get this right, it should greatly increase our list building options as you’ve noted.

15 hours ago, RapidReload said:

Noone said they are unintelligent, but it must be allowed to voice opinions other than "everything is so great". I for one did not see much "magic" since the release of the SSD. The only new mechanic that did not decrease enjoyment of the game for me is Salvo - which is in itself a blow to MSU lists - so do not think I am pro MSU biased here. The only small issue I have with Salvo is that it sometimes completely discourages making an attack against a Salvo equipped ship at all, that feels bad and takes away from the fun of the game.

My issue is that I think most new mechanics and ships harmed the game in that they made it less fun (for me and others) and introduced imbalance:
Less Fun: SSD,SH (for both players) because I do not enjoy games that revolve around very few ship activations as I at least (and I now enough others of the same opinion) think the resulting games are boring. Its also not very exciting to watch these ships snail across the board. They are also bad for tournament settings and list variety due to the point fortress effect.
Less Fun: Moralo (for the opponent) ... it was discussed plenty.
Less Fun: Raddus,Sloane (for the opponent) ... they take to much ability to react and defend away from the opponent.
Bad for balance: Pryce/SA/Bail ... cheap way of greatly empowering large activations at no skill overhead (=its easy to use).
Bad for balance: Onager/Extreme Range ... I doubted this mechanic when it was announced and was told to wait and see how it does ... well I waited and saw and am convinced that it is really really very bad for balance and ship variety. I would be glad to argue this point further but dont want to spam this post now.

I am conviced some of these changes were triggered by certain playtesters repeatedly complaining about "last-firsting". I personally dont like this mechanic thematically, but never had much issue with it from a game mechanics perspective until the arrival of SAd/Pryce/Bail which allowed for insanly powerful last-first activations with large ships (which were rare earlier, at least in my meta ... usually it was a Demo or MC30 that did the last firsting, and as it has been mentioned such lists suffer against many other lists - eg anti-ship squad-based lists). Further I do not think that the current state is better in any way, I would even argue towards worse.

Now game designers talk about introducing one-time-use pass tokens (likely for low activation lists). The only instance were this will not mess even further with the activation system would be if the number of pass tokens would never prohibit or enable a last-first, however that would be rather pointless to introduce, so I would assume that they are designed to prohibit a last-first, but only for a limited number of turns (one or maybe even two). We know how the pass mechanic works for the SSD, its likely those tokens will be based off that, so if a ship would activate you instead discard a pass token. If it works like that it is actually much worse than Pryce was... You would be able to delay a significant number of activations in a turn of your choice that can be decided on DURING THE GAME. Pryce forced a choice after deployment and only delayed a single activation. These pass tokens are likely to delay multiple activations and during any turn of your choice ... see a frisky MC30 approaching this turn? pass, take the last activation from it, shoot it, maybe get shot a bit in return, but the MC30 is likely dying and was useless in any case... extrapolate from that example.
Further, what if your low activation list goes first? Using the pass tokens you may be able to delay a large activation for a significant time and then also go first next turn. You may think: "well its likely only during a single turn", but we saw the impact of Pryce and Bail, and this will have a larger impact on the game state. I cannot actually conceive of good reasons to create lists with more than say 3 activations anymore.

Now I dont want to be all negative, I also think the limit of 4 aces per lists is a very good one, hopefully it will lead to more squad variety. I do not think it adressed the issues most casual player had with the squad game (too fidgety) or that it will reduce the amount of squad points that will be used in most competitive lists, but maybe that was not what FFG was going for which is fine, personally I think the ace restriction is sufficient.

Summing up: I appreciate the effort and heart that is poured into this game by all involved, but an honest look at issues from the perspective of some players outside your little bubble should be appreciated and not scoffed at, especially if they are handed out freely on this open forum.

Cheers and thanks @Triangular .

It wasn't just playtesters. I can vouch that many players especially in tournaments feel that too many lists are built around going last uncontested whether they are going first in the next turn or not. This makes lists that go significantly earlier than others a liability as they cannot respond effectively via standard game mechanics. It filters all the way down from objective selection to the squadron phase. Assuming that a pass system is designed to simply allow parity with the opposing fleet as opposed to an "I go last" mechanic, this will likely have a positive impact and induce more incentive for balanced fleets that are not designed around last-first or unopposed final maneuvers.

10 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

It wasn't just playtesters. I can vouch that many players especially in tournaments feel that too many lists are built around going last uncontested whether they are going first in the next turn or not. This makes lists that go significantly earlier than others a liability as they cannot respond effectively via standard game mechanics. It filters all the way down from objective selection to the squadron phase. Assuming that a pass system is designed to simply allow parity with the opposing fleet as opposed to an "I go last" mechanic, this will likely have a positive impact and induce more incentive for balanced fleets that are not designed around last-first or unopposed final maneuvers.

I understand where you are coming from. In my experiences with the game last-first was very powerful especially against less experienced players (however not only those). Some of my better opponents taught me that you can setup ships so that if you execute your last-first, they hit you at another place with their second activation - and just as hard. Creating a list with 6+ activations and a high bid has inherent weaknesses - no squads, flimsy ships that die easy and bleed points (for tournaments), badly suited to many objectives. The issue was more palpable while flotillas were unlimited, however I don't think that it would be so problematic now if Pryce/SA/Bail did not exist.

In my area, tournament lists (prior to the Onager - now we have 80% Onagers) were actually often aiming at going second because of the power of Objectives and because even lists with large ships and many squadrons were simply using Pryce/SA/Bail to make a last-first against them easy to counter. I also can't rememer any lists that won major tournament and were focussed on last-firsting, but I may just misremember.

My issue with the pass tokens goes beyond that. They will simply make lists with many activations obsolete. (edit: disclaimer and warning: this sentence is a hyperbole!!!! This disclaimer was made necessary by people specifically criticising this sentence and taking it out of context with my previous post).

2 hours ago, RapidReload said:

My issue with the pass tokens goes beyond that. They will simply make lists with many activations obsolete.

Can you see that making definitive statements on the basis of incomplete information might be setting yourself up for defeat? I can see why some may be concerned that high activation MSU fleets may be affected. I cannot see how this can be certain yet.