Pretty much that. Suppose some other rule (whatever, details unimportant) limited TIE Defenders to only being two per list. How much should the Init 1 Delta Defender cost?

https://strawpoll.com/891yroqvf

It isn't all exact numbers, but ranges.

🤔 Vader Defender Defender worries me more than 3x Defender...

4 hours ago, svelok said:

🤔 Vader Defender Defender worries me more than 3x Defender...

Me too it’s 201 right now. Selfishly if it ever fits I’ll fly it almost exclusively. I think lowering it any more than to 65 would be criminal, 67 is probably just right.

I think the Defenders problem is damage output. For his stat line he’s a great ship and close to being correctly price......

But we’re talking a 3 die gun with a focus. You can get almost two of those with a lesser chassis. For same cost. (67 ps 1 v 2x39 ps 1)

He needs to attack twice or have a more efficient attack. IMHO.

When I play against a defender I normally just ignore it. I can get my points easier elsewhere. And most games end on points below that of what a defender holds.

And ignoring it is not that bad honestly... there’s little punishment for doing so.

Delta/Delta/Echo and Delta/Echo/TGI went 5-1 and 6-0 respectively, at yesterday's big GSP tournament.

Will folks realize soon that Defenders are fine?

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Delta/Delta/Echo and Delta/Echo/TGI went 5-1 and 6-0 respectively, at yesterday's big GSP tournament.

Will folks realize soon that Defenders are fine?

Do you mean not undercosted?

14 minutes ago, Boreas Mun said:

Do you mean not undercosted?

Mostly I mean that more folks who keep begging for buffs should just put them on the table and realize they don't really need buffs.

I voted "67 is correct" in my poll. I'll own that I never really felt they needed the round-after-round of cuts which brought them that low, but they're low popularly so I don't really think that justifies nerfs any time soon. Maybe, but wait and see.

One more note: team no-buffs (67 and 68+) has so far outvoted team buffs 16-13 in almost two days since the poll started.

In Canon Defenders fly around with Ion cannons to. Maybe after an attack hits they cause 1 Ion. Or if they shoot at something in their bullseye arc they cause Ion on top of damage. Its not directly a damage output fix, but it helps.

I don't' think 3 deltas would shatter anything. I'm currently having really digging 3 1g-2000s and with all the neat tricks they can do, while having a relatively similar stat line, and 3 additional initiative, I think 65-66 point deltas would be fine, even without the 2 ship restriction.

Vader +2 deltas seems solid for sure but I doubt it would break the game. But who knows, I could be totally wrong!

The biggest problem with triple delta isn't that it'd be OP, but NPE. They're such tanks, and can be really troublesome to whittle down for many lists, and it gets very demoralizing very quickly if you keep failing to damage your enemy.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Delta/Delta/Echo and Delta/Echo/TGI went 5-1 and 6-0 respectively, at yesterday's big GSP tournament.

Will folks realize soon that Defenders are fine?

This proves the DELTA is efficient, not defenders. This is also not entirely new either. Delta Delta Shuttle has also been a bit successful and Delta Delta Soontir a wee little bit.

BUT, I find this akin to saying the V-19 is a successful ship..... is it? When only it’s spam-able lowest I ship is played?

Also, that’s just how it is sometimes. It’s the Soontir/Interceptor only vs Generic only/Torrents..... that’s just how it falls.

🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️

That being said, I desire to have a 100 point defender ace that’s worth his points. 😝

2 hours ago, Dwing said:

In Canon Defenders fly around with Ion cannons to. Maybe after an attacks hits they cause 1 Ion. Or if they shoot at something in their bullseye arc they cause Ion on top of damage. Its not directly a damage output fix, but it helps.

They also used their tractor beams to momentarily hold a ship for a kill shot....

thus the TIE/d title of 1.0 😜 👍

43 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

The biggest problem with triple delta isn't that it'd be OP, but NPE. They're such tanks, and can be really troublesome to whittle down for many lists, and it gets very demoralizing very quickly if you keep failing to damage your enemy.

I agree with this. This is why in 2.0 they actually BUFFED the defenders NOT nerfed them from 1.0 like a lot of other ships.

As long as there is another target to shoot, ignoring a defender is ok. If you CHOOSE to focus on the defender, you still know what you’re in for.

Three is too many IMHO. But like with Batwings, I agree with @urbanyeti , they wouldn’t be OP.... just *ick* groan.... lol

I’m inspired to try this: not sure on remaining upgrades... 🤔

DELTAs Are Gud!

(67) Darth Vader [TIE Advanced x1]
(6) Afterburners
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 75

(52) Grand Inquisitor [TIE Advanced v1]
Points: 52

(67) Delta Squadron Pilot [TIE/D Defender]
Points: 67

Total points: 194

I actually want Deltas to go up a couple points, and the others to come down a bit more

19 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

The biggest problem with triple delta isn't that it'd be OP, but NPE. They're such tanks, and can be really troublesome to whittle down for many lists, and it gets very demoralizing very quickly if you keep failing to damage your enemy.

Agreed. One of the biggest problems I have with the current meta is how easy it is to fortress points behind a mega thick tank. To do this you should either be trading a LOT of offensive power so if you brawl you lose, should have an additional ship in your list that brings offensive power but is vulnerable, or all of your offensive power should be extremely conditional.

I think 3 defenders would be way too much. Trying to force defenders to 'be a thing' in the current meta is sorta... doomed, because its basically asking for them to outjoust droid swarms, which just raises the required damage bar for every other list more. It more needs a better home with supporting pieces getting better, or more likely for its home to be less preyed upon by the meta.

Any list that is based around a support ship is sorta doomed when droids push more value than most support ships without introducing that list weakness. And Deltas make the most sense as the 'sword' something like a shuttle wields, because it gives such a powerful jousting ship a weakpoint that makes it more interactive. If it was just stats efficient on its own it would be kinda nonsense.