I have ALWAYS played (and around a view rules lawyers) that PT and APT’s requirement to change a hit to a Crit is a dice mod that I control.

Ergo...

Redline Torps you with TL and focus. I roll blank blank focus focus, spend TL to convert blanks into focus hit. Spend focus for 4 hits, change one to a Crit.

Standard procedure, nothing to see here.

Is this wrong? Do I have to apply the hit to Crit mod FIRST before my lock and focus. Effectively means that if I don’t natty at least one hit then no crits for me???

IS IT JUST LATE AT NIGHT AND I’M CRAZY?!?!

WHERE AM I!?!? HELLO?!??

1. You can do it in any order. Since it instructs you to change a die result, it's a form of dice modification. All modifications happen at the same time, but can be handled in any order you desire.
2. It's not optional. Since it doesn't include the wording "you may," one of your hits HAS to become a crit. This usually doesn't matter, but against certain abilities (like Impervium Plating), you don't get the choice of NOT modifying that hit into a crit.

@emeraldbeacon

Ok phew 😅

So game effects first doesn’t apply here?

1 hour ago, JBFancourt said:

@emeraldbeacon

Ok phew 😅

So game effects first doesn’t apply here?

no. doesn't matter whether it's mandatory. the text on proton torpedoes is a player's ability.

effects that resolve during the modify dice steps don't use the ability queue, as described here:

if this wasn't the case, dice modification would get very messy, as in you'd always have to add all your modification options to the queue before resolving any of them.

Also, all text on cards is considered "Abilities" as per p31 of the current Rules Reference (v1.1.0):

Q: What makes an effect an "ability?"

A: An ability is text from a card a player controls (such a ship card, upgrade card, damage card, remote card, device, condition card, etc).

On 8/16/2020 at 10:29 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

1. You can do it in any order. Since it instructs you to change a die result, it's a form of dice modification. All modifications happen at the same time, but can be handled in any order you desire.
2. It's not optional. Since it doesn't include the wording "you may," one of your hits HAS to become a crit. This usually doesn't matter, but against certain abilities (like Impervium Plating), you don't get the choice of NOT modifying that hit into a crit.

SOOOO.....

Since I control order can I use the torpedoes ability to change a hit to a Crit when I have no hits? Then use my TL and Focus?

Seems sneaky..... 😝

1 hour ago, JBFancourt said:

SOOOO.....

Since I control order can I use the torpedoes ability to change a hit to a Crit when I have no hits? Then use my TL and Focus?

Seems sneaky..... 😝

i hate to say it, but i'm pretty sure that's supported by the rules.

"If a die cannot be changed to a given result, nothing happens."

that still requires you to attack with a proton torpedo or an advanced proton torpedo - and only roll focus, blanks and/or crits.

54 minutes ago, meffo said:

"If a die cannot be changed to a given result, nothing happens."

Given the example that the use is changing an attack result to an evade, I believe that "cannot be changed to a given result" means that result is not an option. A crit is a result that it can be changed to.

But this could easily be argued to support to forcing the crit trigger to happen first. Hopefully this is niche enough that it never shows up. You'd need to roll non-hit results on all of your dice, so you are likely in sorry shape anyway, or you rolled all crits in which case, sure, change your crit to a crit then spend lock to get rid of all of them. I won't mind.

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Since I control order can I use the torpedoes ability to change a hit to a Crit when I have no hits? Then use my TL and Focus?

I don't think you can because you can't change 1 hit result if you don't have 1 hit result. Since 1 is a discrete value, you can't use the ability to change any number of results other than 1, even if you don't have any hit results.

1 hour ago, joeshmoe554 said:

I don't think you can because you can't change 1 hit result if you don't have 1 hit result. Since 1 is a discrete value, you can't use the ability to change any number of results other than 1, even if you don't have any hit results.

Joe's take is in line with my reading of the rules regarding spending Focus requiring an [eye] result to change, recovering a shield requires having a depleted shield to recover, etc. So although the 'yes you can do all mods in any order' argument has merit, it is countered by the common thread running through 2e rules that if an ability affects 1 of something like a die result it cannot be triggered when there is 0.

@nitrobenz and @joeshmoe554

I think you’re missing my point:

Hit to Crit only happens at one specific time: when it is entered into the queue.

If I rolled 4 blanks TL into 4 blanks (or 4 crits), it would still HAVE to be put into the queue, but would fail to resolve, because it’s not optional.

IF I CONTROL THE TIMING of when to enter it into the queue, just like TL and Focus, then I can enter it into the queue in any order.

Unlike spending a focus with no focus results, I can enter it into the queue first, it just fails to resolve.

Then TL then focus (if able). What prevents the focus spent on nothing is a particular rule that prohibits you. It’s not a general truth IMHO. It’s beside the point anyway....

This is a question of mandatory ability queue timing, when you control the timing of multiple mods.

So, yes, I agree with @joeshmoe554 ’s statement. You change 0 results and the ability does not resolve. Nothing in the rules require you to repeatedly enter it into the queue until it resolves successfully.

8 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

@nitrobenz and @joeshmoe554

I think you’re missing my point:

Hit to Crit only happens at one specific time: when it is entered into the queue.

If I rolled 4 blanks TL into 4 blanks (or 4 crits), it would still HAVE to be put into the queue, but would fail to resolve, because it’s not optional.

IF I CONTROL THE TIMING of when to enter it into the queue, just like TL and Focus, then I can enter it into the queue in any order.

Unlike spending a focus with no focus results, I can enter it into the queue first, it just fails to resolve.

Then TL then focus (if able). What prevents the focus spent on nothing is a particular rule that prohibits you. It’s not a general truth IMHO. It’s beside the point anyway....

This is a question of mandatory ability queue timing, when you control the timing of multiple mods.

So, yes, I agree with @joeshmoe554 ’s statement. You change 0 results and the ability does not resolve. Nothing in the rules require you to repeatedly enter it into the queue until it resolves successfully.

well, that point is pretty moot since the ability queue is not used for dice modification while attacking or defending. instead effects that are used during the modify attack and modify defense dice steps are applied as described in the rules on dice modification. this is stated in the clarification we received on the question on the timing of abilities that happen "while you defend" or "while you perform an attack".

this is also obvious, since building an ability queue for dice modification would be very troublesome indeed. you'd have to state that you're going to spend a lock and use a focus before you used the lock to reroll and see the results.

Gotcha 👍

But if the ability still HAS to be used I don’t think the focus rule can apply then???

OK, maybe I shouldn’t have used queue … But what rule makes me keep attempting to try to enter it as a modification if the first time I fail?

4 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

OK, maybe I shouldn’t have used queue … But what rule makes me keep attempting to try to enter it as a modification if the first time I fail?

I would suggest that you don't repeatedly attempt to resolve it, but rather you might not be allowed to attempt it if there are no Hit results to modify. If there are no hits at the end then you just skip it and move on, but if there are hits at the end and you didn't already change one earlier then you do it at the end. This stance does remind me though of the ruling for 1e hotshot copilot and I can't think of a similar ruling on 2e, but Autopilot Drone does have a similar rules question hovering over it regarding whether/how you can shuffle the mandatory charge removal with the docking/deployment procedure. (To my knowledge that has not yet been addressed)

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

OK, maybe I shouldn’t have used queue … But what rule makes me keep attempting to try to enter it as a modification if the first time I fail?

If you roll four blanks, and attempt to spend a focus, you can't. Does that mean that if you spend a lock and get eyeball results, that you cannot spend the focus now?

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

If you roll four blanks, and attempt to spend a focus, you can't. Does that mean that if you spend a lock and get eyeball results, that you cannot spend the focus now?

Yeah.... I get this argument, but it also relies on a rather vague assumption (right or wrong) that this mandatory mod would function by focus rules.

There are certainly other examples of where something just fails...

According to the rules themselves nothing happens see @meffo post

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Yeah.... I get this argument, but it also relies on a rather vague assumption (right or wrong) that this mandatory mod would function by focus rules.

There are certainly other examples of where something just fails...

According to the rules themselves nothing happens see @meffo post

yeah, that's why i think your interpretation is somewhat supported by the rules. it's just an interpretation, though. if you check the example given, i'm not sure they actually mean it works like that.

changing an attack die to an evade result or changing a defense die to a hit result is not possible, so nothing happens. if that's all that's meant by "If a die cannot be changed to a given result, nothing happens.", then it doesn't matter that none of the results the effect on proton torpedoes is trying to change are present, since red dice can still be changed to a crit result.

it's far from clear - and i really think you have a point.

Ah well, it’s pretty niche anyway.... just a curiosity

I suppose if a pilot or upgrade came along that said, "When defending, attack dice cannot be changed to [CRIT] results," that would represent a use of "if a die can't be changed to a given result".