29 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Im not talking about one a 1:1 ratio. Obviously red dice are better than white dice on a 1:1 ratio.

Im talking about on a PER COST ratio. The RT-97 is better per cost than the T-21.

And yes high level players absolutely use the RT-97 over the T-21. Because the RT-97 does more damage than the T-21 on average while having better range and costing less. Why wouldnt they use the RT-97? it is the better choice in almost every regard.

Again this forum topic is about stormtroopers. Its about the HH-12 and balancing it with the other stormtrooper heavy weapons. Not sure why people keep going off on tangents about non-stormtrooper units.

But I believe i have explained why naked stormtrooper units are a bad idea. Because 4 white dice is abysmal. stormtroopers rely heavily on their heavy weapons to do any decent amount of damage.

Now all of a sudden you are switching to the RT-97c, when originally you where arguing about the DLT-19... And before we were discussing the DC-15 vs the Z-6 until you switched the discussion. For the RT-97c people are paying 3 more points than the DLT-19, loosing Impact 1 and one red die to gain 3 white die. This seems in direct contrast to your claims...

Stormtrooper units are taken frequently as escorts for a medically droid with no heavy weapon if they are taken at all. Generally though, high level competitive lists (see earlier post for Invader league, or here for 2020 LVO lists: https://tabletop.to/lvo-2020-star-wars-legion-final ) pass them over entirely for Shoretroopers (partially to add a mortar), which goes to my earlier point: there are better things to spend points on than a heavy weapon in many lists. A unit is more than just it's damage output, and one of the main things Corps units contribute is a filled slot in the Force Org chart to make a legal list.

Just now, Caimheul1313 said:

Now all of a sudden you are switching to the RT-97c, when originally you where arguing about the DLT-19... And before we were discussing the DC-15 vs the Z-6 until you switched the discussion. For the RT-97c people are paying 3 more points than the DLT-19, loosing Impact 1 and one red die to gain 3 white die. This seems in direct contrast to your claims...

Stormtrooper units are taken frequently as escorts for a medically droid with no heavy weapon if they are taken at all. Generally though, high level competitive lists (see earlier post for Invader league, or here for 2020 LVO lists: https://tabletop.to/lvo-2020-star-wars-legion-final ) pass them over entirely for Shoretroopers (partially to add a mortar), which goes to my earlier point: there are better things to spend points on than a heavy weapon in many lists. A unit is more than just it's damage output, and one of the main things Corps units contribute is a filled slot in the Force Org chart to make a legal list.

makes no difference whether its the DLT-19 or RT-97. They are both balanced well with eachother. And both are superior to the T-21.

Just now, Khobai said:

makes no difference whether its the DLT-19 or RT-97. They are both balanced well with eachother. And both are superior to the T-21.

It does though. You are claiming "white dice are trash" yet in direct contrast to that claim, high level players are paying extra points to lose Impact 1 and trade a red die for 3 white die... So how then does this prove white die are trash?

13 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It does though. You are claiming "white dice are trash" yet in direct contrast to that claim, high level players are paying extra points to lose Impact 1 and trade a red die for 3 white die... So how then does this prove white die are trash?

Please read my post. It is clear you didnt even read it.

The problem is when you only have white dice in your attack pool. The RT97 adds a red dice. So you no longer have only white dice.

The T-21 is bad because it adds white dice to an attack pool that is already full of white dice.

The RT-97 and DLT add red dice to an attack pool that is otherwise full of white dice. Even adding one red dice makes a big difference. Because stormtroopers surge to hit each red dice added is almost a full extra 1 hit.

Quote

Stormtrooper units are taken frequently as escorts for a medically droid with no heavy weapon if they are taken at all. Generally though, high level competitive lists (see earlier post for Invader league, or here for 2020 LVO lists: https://tabletop.to/lvo-2020-star-wars-legion-final ) pass them over entirely for Shoretroopers (partially to add a mortar), which goes to my earlier point: there are better things to spend points on than a heavy weapon in many lists. A unit is more than just it's damage output, and one of the main things Corps units contribute is a filled slot in the Force Org chart to make a legal list.

Shoretroopers are straight up better than stormtroopers most of the time. That is a fact.

However that fact is irrelevant in a topic that is discussing using heavy weapons on stormtroopers though.

The topic is about stormtroopers and the HH12 and how its not balanced with the other stormtrooper heavy weapons. Its not about running medical droids on naked stormtroopers. or running shoretroopers instead. Those are tangential and having nothing to do with the discussion.

8 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Please read my post. It is clear you didnt even read it.

The problem is when you only have white dice in your attack pool. The RT97 adds a red dice. So you no longer have only white dice.

... For more points than the DLT-19 would add 2 red die, which means it is NOT the most efficient way to add red die to the attack pool...

Edit: but it is the most cost effective way to add 4 attack die to a unit that doesn't benefit as much from Critical since it already has an attack surge conversion.

I never said the RT97 was better than the DLT19. I said the RT97 was better than the T21.

RT97 and DLT19 are fairly balanced. The choice of which you use depends on whether or not you think impact will come into play.

The RT97 is better than the DLT19 if impact doesnt come into play. The DLT19 is better if impact does come into play.

Its the T21 and HH12 that are bad. T21 is bad because it adds no red dice at all. And critical 2 has less value to stormtroopers since they surge to hit innately. HH12 is bad for obvious reasons.

4 hours ago, Khobai said:

The T-21 is trash because white dice are trash.

4 white dice is awful thats why nobody uses the T-21.

32 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I never said the RT97 was better than the DLT19. I said the RT97 was better than the T21.

RT97 and DLT19 are fairly balanced. The choice of which you use depends on whether or not you think impact will come into play.

The RT97 is better than the DLT19 if impact doesnt come into play. The DLT19 is better if impact does come into play.

Except you did say the DLT-19 is better than the RT-97c indirectly at the beginning of this conversation. I:m not tying this to a specific weapon, what I am disagreeing with is your supposition that "White dice are trash." Given that starting hypothesis, how is the RT-97c better than the DLT-19 or even "fairly balanced?" It is more expensive, with fewer keywords, and less red dice.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Except you did say the DLT-19 is better than the RT-97c indirectly at the beginning of this conversation. I:m not tying this to a specific weapon, what I am disagreeing with is your supposition that "White dice are trash." Given that starting hypothesis, how is the RT-97c better than the DLT-19 or even "fairly balanced?" It is more expensive, with fewer keywords, and less red dice.

white dice ARE trash. but enough trashy white dice can still equal 1 red dice. There is a break even point.

and again I never once said the DLT-19 was better. you said I said that.

because I understand that enough trashy white dice can eventually add up to a red die.

the RT97 throws out enough white dice that its actually a little better than the DLT-19 on average for damage. Except in situations where Impact matters then the DLT19 pulls ahead. The RT97 is really not that great against armor. The DLT-19 is better against armor but still not great. Anti-armor is really the role the HH-12 should fill, but unfortunately its downsides make it worse than the DLT-19 in most regards. The T21 is theoretically the best weapon at anti-armor but the fact its all white dice and entirely dependent on getting surges makes it completely unreliable in practice. Its a weapon of random extremes that either does absolutely nothing or gets multiple crits. You cant count on it to do reliable hits each turn.

Because neither of those weapons is always the best option and theyre both good at different things so I consider them to be fairly well balanced.

10 minutes ago, Khobai said:

white dice ARE trash. but enough trashy white dice can still equal 1 red dice. There is a break even point.

and again I never once said the DLT-19 was better. you said I said that.

because I understand that enough trashy white dice can eventually add up to a red die.

the RT97 throws out enough white dice that its actually a little better than the DLT-19 on average for damage. Except in situations where Impact matters then the DLT19 pulls a head a little. The RT97 is really not that great against armor.

Because neither of those weapons is always the best option and theyre both good at different things I consider them to be fairly balanced.

Enough "trashy white dice" do more than equal a red die though since the odds of rolling a crit are the same on each die. A larger dice pool has a greater chance of rolling at least one Crit, and has easier time getting through cover.
Against Heavy cover, 2 die regardless of color are only getting through on a Crit, regardless of rerolls, but with 4 die, you have not only a greater chance of rolling at least one Crit, but the opportunity to roll more than two hits, thus pushing through the cover the hard way.
Precise also is better on bigger die pools, so the chance to double the standard die pool on a Stormtrooper squad is very good in all cases.

7 hours ago, Khobai said:

That largely depends on the unit.

I generally run heavy weapons on stormtroopers because stormtroopers throw white dice. They need the red dice from the heavy weapon to actually hit anything. I might run one naked unit of stormtroopers just because theyre cheap objective holders. But more than one unit of naked stormtroopers starts to become detrimental IMO.

Shoretroopers on the other hand id be more inclined to run naked because they have black dice and their heavy weapon is somewhat overcosted anyway (32 points is a lot for a heavy weapon thats worse than a DLT-19). And Im mostly just taking them for the cheap extra activation from the mortar.

Again it goes back to what ive been saying all along: white dice are garbage. A unit like stormtroopers that only throws out white dice is going to be offensively abysmal so you almost always want to take a heavy weapon with them whenever possible. 24 points to add 2 red dice to a unit of stormtroopers that otherwise only throws white dice is a great bargain. It actually doubles the unit's firepower...

I was talking specifically about Stormtroopers and even more specifically about why the T21 is so bad. And somehow the conversation expanded to include every unit in the game... Yes theres nothing wrong with naked units. But some units run naked better than others and naked units of stormtroopers are not so great.

In what universe is the T-21b worse than a DLT?

9 hours ago, costi said:

In what universe is the T-21b worse than a DLT?

He's talking about the stormtrooper T-21, not the shoretrooper T-21b.

17 hours ago, Khobai said:

Shoretroopers on the other hand id be more inclined to run naked because they have black dice and their heavy weapon is somewhat overcosted anyway (32 points is a lot for a heavy weapon thats worse than a DLT-19).

1 hour ago, KarlVonCarstein said:

He's talking about the stormtrooper T-21, not the shoretrooper T-21b.

You might think that, because that would make sense, but you would be wrong.