2 minutes ago, Khobai said:

on characters theyre 2-3 dice

on troopers theyre usually 1-2 dice

There is not a single pistol at less than 2 dice. Character pistols are between 2-4.

And the reason to use the HH-12 is if you are facing large armoured vehicles all the time, which frankly isn't that common of an occurrence. The DLT-19 performs well in more situations, without drawbacks. At least one of the heavy options isn't an Ion weapon, unlike the Rebel troopers or Snowtroopers...

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

right now the DLT-19 is hands down better than every other option. And that is a problem.

The RT-97C is a bit better than the DLT-19 against troopers, especially for split fire/range 4 shots at targets in heavy cover. However, it is more expensive and does lose the flexibility against armor (though it doesn't lose as much as you might think, as it averages more natural crits thanks to having more dice).

The T-21 is actually better against armor than the DLT-19, despite being more expensive. It's also almost as good as the DLT-19 against troopers in the open or light cover, and much better against targets in heavy cover. Range 3 is it's biggest weakness, and with all white dice it's not great for splitting fire.

The DLT-19 is the cheapest and most flexible, but is not the best in any one scenario.

The HH-12 does need some help, though. Impact 3 is not enough to justify...well, anything about it. B1s with the E-60R hit vehicles almost as hard, and they don't have cumbersome.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

on characters theyre 2-3 dice. on troopers theyre usually 1-2 dice. which I dont at all agree with. it makes no sense for a scout trooper pistol to do so much more damage than a stormtrooper blaster rifle (2 black vs 1 white with surge to hit, really?). its goofy. some of the weapons are totally inconsistent in this game.

but thats going off on a tangent. what I was talking about was differentiating the stormtrooper heavy weapons better so theres actually a reason to use each one.

right now the DLT-19 is hands down better than every other option. And that is a problem.

Specifically the HH-12 and T-21 need to be buffed. And the DLT-19 should be changed so its role doesnt overlap as much with the HH-12s. the DLT-19 having impact often makes it better than the HH-12 in the anti-vehicle role. So impact on the DLT should be changed to something else.

There should be a reason to use each of the four heavy weapons and right now theres not.

Scout troopers do more with their pistol than Stormtroopers do with their rifle. I wonder if that could have anything to do with the fact that one of those units is a mass produced barely trained unit and the other one is a trained and specialised unit that has to have experience in combat before they can go for scout training.

The E-11 also had pretty bad recoil making it inaccurate when using full auto, doesnt matter how much damage your shot does if it never hits anything, and we all know how accurate Stormtroopers are

I agree with you about differentiating the weapons for the various units though

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Scout troopers do more with their pistol than Stormtroopers do with their rifle. I wonder if that could have anything to do with the fact that one of those units is a mass produced barely trained unit and the other one is a trained and specialised unit that has to have experience in combat before they can go for scout training.

scout troopers lost to ewoks

15 hours ago, 5particus said:

Scout troopers do more with their pistol than Stormtroopers do with their rifle. I wonder if that could have anything to do with the fact that one of those units is a mass produced barely trained unit and the other one is a trained and specialised unit that has to have experience in combat before they can go for scout training.

The E-11 also had pretty bad recoil making it inaccurate when using full auto, doesnt matter how much damage your shot does if it never hits anything, and we all know how accurate Stormtroopers are

I agree with you about differentiating the weapons for the various units though

How the **** does a laser have recoil?

4 minutes ago, costi said:

How the **** does a laser have recoil?

because it is not a laser, you think that lasers move that slowly? it is a bolt of superheated plasma contained in a magnetic field, this is why the y all dont have unlimited range like they would if it was a Laser, the magnetic field breaks down after a few seconds and the plasma disapates

2 hours ago, 5particus said:

because it is not a laser, you think that lasers move that slowly? it is a bolt of superheated plasma contained in a magnetic field, this is why the y all dont have unlimited range like they would if it was a Laser, the magnetic field breaks down after a few seconds and the plasma disapates

No weapon has unlimited range, since what you're really talking about is effective range. Bullets can travel for miles, but that doesn't mean an M16's range is miles. It's effective range is more like 500m (at the high end) because that's the range at which you are likely to actually be able hit your target. No one (i would hope) thinks that bullets and blaster bolts just disappear at the edge of the range band, It's just that past that your chance of hitting the target is so low as to not be considered for the purposes of game mechanics. Just because a laser beam has "unlimited range" does not mean you can effectively hit something at any range.

9 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

No weapon has unlimited range, since what you're really talking about is effective range. Bullets can travel for miles, but that doesn't mean an M16's range is miles. It's effective range is more like 500m (at the high end) because that's the range at which you are likely to actually be able hit your target. No one (i would hope) thinks that bullets and blaster bolts just disappear at the edge of the range band, It's just that past that your chance of hitting the target is so low as to not be considered for the purposes of game mechanics. Just because a laser beam has "unlimited range" does not mean you can effectively hit something at any range.

that is true but if it was a laser then you could just turn it on and then move the beam into the enemies to kill them, the range would then be determined by how far you could see which would be effectivly infinite range on a legion 6x3 table, this is moot though as i dont think anything except death star style weapons use lasers, only thing that we might see that uses them would be the LAAT and the i guess the beam cannot turret for the Saber

19 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

No weapon has unlimited range, since what you're really talking about is effective range. Bullets can travel for miles, but that doesn't mean an M16's range is miles. It's effective range is more like 500m (at the high end) because that's the range at which you are likely to actually be able hit your target. No one (i would hope) thinks that bullets and blaster bolts just disappear at the edge of the range band, It's just that past that your chance of hitting the target is so low as to not be considered for the purposes of game mechanics. Just because a laser beam has "unlimited range" does not mean you can effectively hit something at any range.

More importantly, they lose energy with distance.

A laser might be accurate for a very long distance, but so what if it has the power of a pocket flashlight?

4 minutes ago, costi said:

More importantly, they lose energy with distance.

A laser might be accurate for a very long distance, but so what if it has the power of a pocket flashlight?

the US Navy currently has a Laser weapon that has a range of about 1 mile, they can use it to destroy small UAV's or melt parts of helicopters to shoot them down, im gonna guess though that it is somewhat larger than a rifle

3 hours ago, 5particus said:

the US Navy currently has a Laser weapon that has a range of about 1 mile, they can use it to destroy small UAV's or melt parts of helicopters to shoot them down, im gonna guess though that it is somewhat larger than a rifle

And yet we don't have hyperdrives in real life, while they do in Star Wars. Equating real technology to fantasy space technology is apples and oranges.

On 8/20/2020 at 2:44 PM, Lochlan said:

The RT-97C is a bit better than the DLT-19 against troopers, especially for split fire/range 4 shots at targets in heavy cover. However, it is more expensive and does lose the flexibility against armor (though it doesn't lose as much as you might think, as it averages more natural crits thanks to having more dice).

The T-21 is actually better against armor than the DLT-19, despite being more expensive. It's also almost as good as the DLT-19 against troopers in the open or light cover, and much better against targets in heavy cover. Range 3 is it's biggest weakness, and with all white dice it's not great for splitting fire.

The DLT-19 is the cheapest and most flexible, but is not the best in any one scenario.

The HH-12 does need some help, though. Impact 3 is not enough to justify...well, anything about it. B1s with the E-60R hit vehicles almost as hard, and they don't have cumbersome.

Yep and I already said the RT-97 was fine because its better than the DLT-19 in some situations.

But the T-21 and HH-12 are absolute garbage. They both need buffs. There is absolutely no reason to ever take the T-21 over the RT-97 or DLT-19. Range 4 wins out over anything else the T-21 does.

27 minutes ago, Khobai said:

Yep and I already said the RT-97 was fine because its better than the DLT-19 in some situations.

But the T-21 and HH-12 are absolute garbage. They both need buffs. There is absolutely no reason to ever take the T-21 over the RT-97 or DLT-19. Range 4 wins out over anything else the T-21 does.

Range 4 would matter more if the rest of the unit also had Range 4 weapons. Big dice pools are more effective for aim tokens, which Stormtroopers want to have anyway. So the T-21 is fine in most situations, it just doesn't want to split fire which is overal fine. Splitting fire is a fine way to place suppression, but not very efficient for destroying units.
Honestly, having the entire unit have the same range is frequently a good idea since then you aren't tempted to spend an action rolling just two red die at a distant target. Instead you can focus on playing the objectives, and rolling big dice pools at Range 3 targets.

On 8/21/2020 at 6:42 AM, 5particus said:

the US Navy currently has a Laser weapon that has a range of about 1 mile, they can use it to destroy small UAV's or melt parts of helicopters to shoot them down, im gonna guess though that it is somewhat larger than a rifle

And even if they up the power it can only top out at around 3 miles becuase of the curvature of the earth. (Assuming you are firing it from the ground at another target relatively close to the ground)

4 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

And even if they up the power it can only top out at around 3 miles becuase of the curvature of the earth. (Assuming you are firing it from the ground at another target relatively close to the ground)

What curvature? The earth is flat... 😉

59 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

What curvature? The earth is flat... 😉

Yeah but Star Wars is a fantasy with crazy round planets. Not flat like our real planet.

On 8/23/2020 at 5:06 PM, Caimheul1313 said:

Range 4 would matter more if the rest of the unit also had Range 4 weapons. Big dice pools are more effective for aim tokens, which Stormtroopers want to have anyway. So the T-21 is fine in most situations, it just doesn't want to split fire which is overal fine. Splitting fire is a fine way to place suppression, but not very efficient for destroying units.
Honestly, having the entire unit have the same range is frequently a good idea since then you aren't tempted to spend an action rolling just two red die at a distant target. Instead you can focus on playing the objectives, and rolling big dice pools at Range 3 targets.

The T-21 is trash because white dice are trash.

4 white dice is awful thats why nobody uses the T-21.

And no its not fine because youre paying more points for worse dice. If the T-21 was at least the cheapest heavy weapon it might be okay for shaving points. But as it stands it not even good for that.

It also makes the stormtrooper surge to hit worthless because of the critical X keyword. So it doesnt take advantage of one of the stormtroopers best abilities whereas the RT-97 can take advantage of surge to hit.

The T-21 absolutely needs a buff even if its just like a 5 point cost decrease.

Just now, Khobai said:

The T-21 is trash because white dice are trash.

4 white dice is awful thats why nobody uses the T-21.

So why is the Z-6 widely used?
White dice are good for increasing the size of the attack pool (leading to potentially more hits) which increases the odds of getting Crits. They are especially good on units easy access to re-rolls (either from multiple sources of Aim tokens, or Precise to make the aim tokens go further).

14 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

So why is the Z-6 widely used?
White dice are good for increasing the size of the attack pool (leading to potentially more hits) which increases the odds of getting Crits. They are especially good on units easy access to re-rolls (either from multiple sources of Aim tokens, or Precise to make the aim tokens go further).

The Z-6 is used due to lack of other options. People are forced to use it they dont want to use it. Nobody likes rolling white dice because theyre bad.

Look at the other options available to Rebel Troopers and Clone Trooper MK2s. The other choices are even worse than the Z6.

Rebel Troopers have the choice of using the Z6, a crappy DLT that only throws out black and white dice not red ones, a crappy ion gun, or a pretty decent gun thats only range 2 though which makes it awkward when the rest of the unit is range 3. out of all those choices the Z6 is the best range 3 option and is the least awkward to use. ive seen the SX21 work though but it requires rebels to play a more aggressive style of list usually with han solo, chewbacca, fleet troopers, etc... it runs lots of powerful range 2 guns.

Clone Trooper MK2s have even less options so theyre essentially forced to use the Z-6.

And Clone Trooper MK1s, which have the option to use the Z-6, almost always use the red dice DLT instead because its better.

Although I will say the Z6 is slightly less bad for clones because they can fire support something like a barc speeder and give all those white dice surge to crit. But if clone MK2s had another viable option besides the Z6 im sure they would dump their Z6s in a heartbeat.

1 minute ago, Khobai said:

The Z-6 is used due to lack of other options.

Look at the other options available to Rebel Troopers and Clone Trooper MK2s. Theyre even worse than the Z6.

And Clone Trooper MK1s, which have the option to use the Z-6, almost always use the DLT instead.

There is always another option: Spending the points somewhere else in the list. You are never obligated to take a Heavy weapon. Those points could easily be spent on another unit.

Where are you getting your stats? Most successfully competitive lists I've seen for Republic field Phase 1s with no Heavy weapon as a token generator.
Sources: https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists
https://thefifthtrooper.com/lvo-top-6-lists-and-brief-recap/

16 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

There is always another option: Spending the points somewhere else in the list. You are never obligated to take a Heavy weapon. Those points could easily be spent on another unit.

Where are you getting your stats? Most successfully competitive lists I've seen for Republic field Phase 1s with no Heavy weapon as a token generator.
Sources: https://www.invaderleague.com/league/season-5/season-5-single-elimination-lists
https://thefifthtrooper.com/lvo-top-6-lists-and-brief-recap/

This is true. But when it comes to adding extra damage dice heavy weapons are usually the best bargain.

I mean its hard to beat adding two red dice for 24 points.

So from a pure efficiency standpoint heavy weapons are your best option for spending points.

Token sharing makes clones an exception because if you can generate an aim token for another unit that has a heavy weapon it often makes up for not taking a heavy weapon on the unit that generated the token. So clones can afford to run more naked units as token factories.

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Where are you getting your stats? Most successfully competitive lists I've seen for Republic field Phase 1s with no Heavy weapon as a token generator.

I never said clone MK1s had to take a heavy weapon.

I said if they take a heavy weapon they usually take the DLT instead of the Z6. Two red with crit 1 and range 4 is slightly better than six white with range 3.

I dont always take DLT-19s/RT97s on my stormtroopers either, sometimes I run a naked unit just to hold objectives. I figured that went without saying.

But if I take a heavy weapon on my stormtroopers its always either the DLT19 or the RT97. I wont take the awful T21 because the last thing stormtroopers need is more white dice.

In summation, white dice are trash. Youre better off just avoiding anything that has only white dice whenever you can.

Just now, Khobai said:

This is true. But when it comes to adding extra damage dice heavy weapons are usually the best bargain.

I mean its hard to beat adding two red dice for 24 points.

So from a pure efficiency standpoint heavy weapons are your best option for spending points.

No they aren't.
Adding an additional unit gets you more wounds, more activations, more actions, and (importantly for most objectives) more unit leaders.
And this isn't just a single Z-6 being added to a list, they are being spammed in multiple lists, spending over 100 points on that particular upgrade. Points that could instead be spent on an additional unit, or on some other upgrade.

If I'm doing my quick mental math correctly, 6 white die and 2 red die average the same number of potential wounds (by which I mean both hits and crits) without surge, with white die pulling ahead with surge. The average number of crits goes up in the case of the white die though, since all die only have a single crit facing, so bigger pools are better for "crit fishing."

Again, I would like to see your sources for your claims about taking the DC-15 over the Z-6 on Phase 1s. I provided my sources showing otherwise, as this has not been my experience.

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Adding an additional unit gets you more wounds, more activations, more actions, and (importantly for most objectives) more unit leaders.

That largely depends on the unit.

I generally run heavy weapons on stormtroopers because stormtroopers throw white dice. They need the red dice from the heavy weapon to actually hit anything. I might run one naked unit of stormtroopers just because theyre cheap objective holders. But more than one unit of naked stormtroopers starts to become detrimental IMO.

Shoretroopers on the other hand id be more inclined to run naked because they have black dice and their heavy weapon is somewhat overcosted anyway (32 points is a lot for a heavy weapon thats worse than a DLT-19). And Im mostly just taking them for the cheap extra activation from the mortar.

Again it goes back to what ive been saying all along: white dice are garbage. A unit like stormtroopers that only throws out white dice is going to be offensively abysmal so you almost always want to take a heavy weapon with them whenever possible. 24 points to add 2 red dice to a unit of stormtroopers that otherwise only throws white dice is a great bargain. It actually doubles the unit's firepower...

I was talking specifically about Stormtroopers and even more specifically about why the T21 is so bad. And somehow the conversation expanded to include every unit in the game... Yes theres nothing wrong with naked units. But some units run naked better than others and naked units of stormtroopers are not so great.

@Khobai Citation needed still please. You have made a number of claims that are not supported by the lists coming from the high level players. I did not ask for whatever your personal play experience may be.

Yes, on a 1:1 ratio red dice are significantly better than white. But large pools of white die can outperform small pools of red, while averaging the same number of hits.

22 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@Khobai Citation needed still please. You have made a number of claims that are not supported by the lists coming from the high level players. I did not ask for whatever your personal play experience may be.

Yes, on a 1:1 ratio red dice are significantly better than white. But large pools of white die can outperform small pools of red, while averaging the same number of hits.

Im not talking about one a 1:1 ratio. Obviously red dice are better than white dice on a 1:1 ratio.

Im talking about on a PER COST ratio. The RT-97 is better per cost than the T-21.

And yes high level players absolutely use the RT-97 over the T-21. Because the RT-97 does more damage than the T-21 on average while having better range and costing less. Why wouldnt they use the RT-97? it is the better choice in virtually every regard.

Again this forum topic is about stormtroopers. Its about the HH-12 and balancing it with the other stormtrooper heavy weapons. Not sure why people keep going off on tangents about non-stormtrooper units.

But I believe i have explained why naked stormtrooper units are a bad idea. Because 4 white dice is abysmal. stormtroopers rely heavily on their heavy weapons to do any decent amount of damage.

And to clarify the problem with white dice is when you ONLY have white dice. White dice are fine when theyre mixed with black or red dice in decent proportion because the results average out better. But stormtroopers with the T21 have ONLY white dice. Throwing 8-9 white dice and expecting enough hits to get past cover is just about the most unfun thing in the game. Its right up there with rolling white defense saves for rebels. Thats why the T21 needs to be buffed.