I REALLY want to like the HH-12 but having it exhaust AND Cumbersome just seems to kill its use.

I’d really like to see this card get an errata removing Cumbersome.

As we saw in Rogue One, it’s simply a shoulder fired rocket. Baze runs, jumps in a crater then turns and fires it. There is no set up like a mortar. Plus, the Droid E-60R doesn’t have Cumbersome.

I’d also like to see the Rebels have access to it, again because we see them with it on Scarif.

55 minutes ago, drail14me said:

I REALLY want to like the HH-12 but having it exhaust AND Cumbersome just seems to kill its use.

I’d really like to see this card get an errata removing Cumbersome.

As we saw in Rogue One, it’s simply a shoulder fired rocket. Baze runs, jumps in a crater then turns and fires it. There is no set up like a mortar. Plus, the Droid E-60R doesn’t have Cumbersome.

Yea, getting rid of cumbersome but keeping exhaust would make it much more viable. I'll occasionally run a squad with one to sit in the back and shoot from range and/or poach an objective.

56 minutes ago, drail14me said:

I’d also like to see the Rebels have access to it, again because we see them with it on Scarif.

I feel like taking a tech or training upgrade along the lines of "Scavenger" or "Scavenged Equipment" or something along those lines that let you take an other faction's heavy weapon upgrade would be cool. Would have to have the same rank (Trooper can't take a Special Forces upgrade), maybe Rebels only. Only issue is that a model's base cost is incorporated into a Heavy Weapon Upgrade and Rebel Troopers are generally cheaper than everything but B1s so you'd be paying a premium for the guns.

Droids have a rocket with 2 B and 1 R, impact 2 and exhaust. However they can move and shoot it and droids can still recover and use it with 3 suppression tokens if they are inside command bubble, stormtroopers cannot. On top of that the rocket is more expensive than dlt. I think they need to rework the card or release a new imperial rocket launcher, because impact 3 is not worth all the drawbacks and not really needed with all the other impact that empire already have.

I was expecting that the HH-12 and other "Impact" heavy weapons to see more use after the Republic and CIS got their Heavy vehicles, but I think the pandemic's hindrance to competitive play has prevented the META from evolving.

When playing with my friends, we often agree beforehand to use Heavy's so we can see them go head-to-head (rather than only one side bringing a Heavy and being at an activation disadvantage). Naturally, we'd also equip our Corps with Impact heavy weapons, whereas normally we wouldn't. IME it's worthwhile to equip the HH-12 if you know that you'll be facing Heavy's...

But normally, it's not worthwhile because equipping the HH-12 when you don't need it, instead of a DLT-19, can put you at a distinct disadvantage.

I think that would make a huge difference if the HH-12 (and MPL-57) were updated with the new Cycle keyword. That would allow them to be used every 2 rounds, but the player could still choose to spend an action to ready and fire it every round, if they chose to.

Another option would be to give the HH-12 the Blast keyword so it would be more effective against normal units. Then it would probably see more play.

I assumed it would lose exhaust but keep cumbersome, much like the similar weapon the Phase 1 clones got in the upgrade pack. That wpuld give missile launchers their own sort of identity to contrast with grenade launchers.

58 minutes ago, Revan Reborn said:

I was expecting that the HH-12 and other "Impact" heavy weapons to see more use after the Republic and CIS got their Heavy vehicles, but I think the pandemic's hindrance to competitive play has prevented the META from evolving.

When playing with my friends, we often agree beforehand to use Heavy's so we can see them go head-to-head (rather than only one side bringing a Heavy and being at an activation disadvantage). Naturally, we'd also equip our Corps with Impact heavy weapons, whereas normally we wouldn't. IME it's worthwhile to equip the HH-12 if you know that you'll be facing Heavy's...

But normally, it's not worthwhile because equipping the HH-12 when you don't need it, instead of a DLT-19, can put you at a distinct disadvantage.

I think that would make a huge difference if the HH-12 (and MPL-57) were updated with the new Cycle keyword. That would allow them to be used every 2 rounds, but the player could still choose to spend an action to ready and fire it every round, if they chose to.

Another option would be to give the HH-12 the Blast keyword so it would be more effective against normal units. Then it would probably see more play.

I am of the firm belief that all of the rocket launchers should have blast (including the ones on vehicles) it makes them so much more viable as weapons.

Maybe not blast exactly but make impact have an effect against cover, if a shot is powerful enough to go through armour it should be powerful enough to go through most/all types of cover

2 hours ago, jocke01 said:

Droids have a rocket with 2 B and 1 R, impact 2 and exhaust. However they can move and shoot it and droids can still recover and use it with 3 suppression tokens if they are inside command bubble, stormtroopers cannot. On top of that the rocket is more expensive than dlt. I think they need to rework the card or release a new imperial rocket launcher, because impact 3 is not worth all the drawbacks and not really needed with all the other impact that empire already have.

Droids also have white nonsurge defense dice. The HH-12 is on a red die chassis, so it’s going to survive to fire more easily.

The HH-12 should keep cumbersome, lose exhaust, and gain an additional white die of damage.

Cumbersome makes perfect sense because its a huge frickin rocket launcher. You cant fire something like that on the move.

Exhaust doesnt make sense on any heavy weapon. Because heavy weapons without exhaust will always be better than heavy weapons with exhaust. So in order to balance all heavy weapons better no heavy weapon should ever have exhaust. Exhaust should be removed from every heavy weapon that has it.

Lastly adding an additional white die of damage to the HH-12 would just make the weapon feel better compared to the DLT19. I also think the DLT-19 should lose impact 1 and gain critical 1 or sharpshooter 1 instead. That would make the DLT-19 feel more like a sniper rifle and make the HH-12 definitively better vs armored vehicles than the DLT-19.

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I assumed it would lose exhaust but keep cumbersome, much like the similar weapon the Phase 1 clones got in the upgrade pack. That wpuld give missile launchers their own sort of identity to contrast with grenade launchers.

The problem is the DLT-19 has impact 1. Which still makes it better vs armor most of the time since it can move and shoot. The DLT-19 should lose impact 1 and gain critical 1 or sharpshooter 1 instead.

The HH-12 needs more than just losing exhaust. It also needs another white die of damage to justify being cumbersome.

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I am of the firm belief that all of the rocket launchers should have blast (including the ones on vehicles) it makes them so much more viable as weapons.

I disagree. The role of the HH-12 is anti-armor. It definitely shouldnt have blast. If it just lost exhaust and got an extra white die of damage it would be fine. It would be significantly better than the DLT-19 at anti-armor then.

The blast keyword should be reserved for anti-infantry weapons like grenade launchers and flamethrowers. Because the role of those weapons is to attack infantry in cover.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

Droids also have white nonsurge defense dice. The HH-12 is on a red die chassis, so it’s going to survive to fire more easily.

Survive yes, fire more easily no

11 hours ago, Khobai said:

That would make the DLT-19 feel more like a sniper rifle

The DLT-19 is not a sniper rifle, so why should it feel like one? Also, Sharpshooter 1 on a Corps unit? Shudder. It would have to go up in cost, maybe, 10 points? 15?

On 8/16/2020 at 12:38 PM, Crawfskeezen said:

Yea, getting rid of cumbersome but keeping exhaust would make it much more viable. I'll occasionally run a squad with one to sit in the back and shoot from range and/or poach an objective.

I feel like taking a tech or training upgrade along the lines of "Scavenger" or "Scavenged Equipment" or something along those lines that let you take an other faction's heavy weapon upgrade would be cool. Would have to have the same rank (Trooper can't take a Special Forces upgrade), maybe Rebels only. Only issue is that a model's base cost is incorporated into a Heavy Weapon Upgrade and Rebel Troopers are generally cheaper than everything but B1s so you'd be paying a premium for the guns.

The main issue with "Scavenged equipment" would be that it would have to come in a kit for upgrading the unit with the appropriate heavy weapon miniature. So it would probably be one box with 4-5 models, each with a different allowable heavy weapon.

44 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The main issue with "Scavenged equipment" would be that it would have to come in a kit for upgrading the unit with the appropriate heavy weapon miniature. So it would probably be one box with 4-5 models, each with a different allowable heavy weapon.

Oh yea for sure, it's a bit of a pipe dream to be honest. Maybe at a later date when see a Trooper Upgrade Pack II for Empire and Rebels. Rebels.

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The DLT-19 is not a sniper rifle

I completely disagree. Because sniper strike teams use DLT-19xs... it absolutely is a sniper weapon. the DLT-19s are just more anti-material while the DLT-19Xs are more anti-personnel. But its absolutely a sniper rifle in either capacity.

but you have missed the point entirely.

the point is that DLT-19 is too good vs armored units. Which doesnt help the HH-19 to not be obsolete.

taking impact 1 away from the DLT-19 and replacing it with critical 1 or sharpshooter 1 would help reinforce the HH-19s role since it would then be the only heavy weapon with impact.

Each heavy weapon should have a clearly defined role and right now the DLT-19 is way too good as an all-comers heavy weapon.

They should have given it blast vs. Troopers. (It is a heavy rocket launcher after all) Then it would be worth throwing it in a list every now and then.

16 minutes ago, Khobai said:

I completely disagree. Because sniper strike teams use DLT-19xs... it absolutely is a sniper weapon. the DLT-19s are just more anti-material while the DLT-19Xs are more anti-personnel. But its absolutely a sniper rifle in either capacity.

The DLT-19 is actually somewhat more akin to a HMG than a sniper, if you look at any depiction of it firing in media its always shown as being a medium-long range weapon with a high ROF that packs a punch. The DLT-19X uses the same frame but switches out the firing system to fire single, but more powerful and longer ranged bolts along with the addition of a scope. Think of it as someone taking the frame of a machine gun and using its heavy barrel and robust construction to fire more powerful, single shots instead of multiple.

15 hours ago, Atromix said:

The DLT-19 is actually somewhat more akin to a HMG than a sniper, if you look at any depiction of it firing in media its always shown as being a medium-long range weapon with a high ROF that packs a punch. The DLT-19X uses the same frame but switches out the firing system to fire single, but more powerful and longer ranged bolts along with the addition of a scope. Think of it as someone taking the frame of a machine gun and using its heavy barrel and robust construction to fire more powerful, single shots instead of multiple.

It's more like a light machine gun. The E-Web is the HMG analog. It's simply not a sniper rifle no matter how much he wants it to be.

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The DLT-19 is actually somewhat more akin to a HMG than a sniper

it is definitely not like a HMG at all. the E-web is a HMG. a HMG is a weapon that needs to be mounted on a tripod or a turret mount. like a 50 cal machine gun.

the RT-97 and T-21 are more akin to LMGs than the DLT-19 is. Thats why those weapons throw out 4 dice each.

The DLT-19 is definitely intended to more like a sniper rifle in legion. thats why it only throws out 2 dice. Not 4+ dice like the actual light repeater weapons. The T-21 and RT-97 are filling the role of light machine guns not the DLT-19.

and seeing as how the imperial sniper strike teams use the DLT-19 I dont know how you can refute that. If snipers are using the DLT-19 as a sniper rifle that means its a sniper rifle. Moreso than any of the other guns.

But my point is every weapon the stormtroopers have needs to have a role.

Right now the HH-12 and T-21 are both terrible.

The RT-97 is only a good alternative to the DLT-19 if you know youre not fighting vehicles and youre running veers to feed your stormtroopers aim tokens to reroll the white dice.

And the DLT-19 is still the defacto best heavy weapon for stormtroopers for all comers lists.

The DLT-19 is way too versatile IMO and the stormtrooper heavy weapon roles need to be better defined. The DLT-19 should lose impact 1. Only the HH-12 should have impact. The HH-12 should also not exhaust itself and should gain extra white dice of damage to make up for being cumbersome. Instead of impact 1, The DLT-19 should have critical 1 or sharpshooter 1. The RT-97 is pretty much fine how it is since it has a red die and throws out a decent number of white dice. But the T-21 needs a buff because 4 white dice is absolutely miserable and crit 2 isnt much help on white dice especially when you surge to hit anyway which reduces the value of the stormtrooper surge ability. Pierce might be an interesting rule for the T-21 to have to differentiate it better from the RT-97.

Isn't it mire like the AK family, where the same body can be used in different roles (assault rifle, compact carbine, LMG), depending on the barrel, feed system and targeting system used?

the DLT-19 can definitely be configured for different roles.

But in legion faster firing guns usually throw out more dice

like the rotary barrel guns throw out 6 dice

the repeaters throw out 4 dice

the sniper rifles and semiautomatics throw out 2 dice

5 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

It's more like a light machine gun. The E-Web is the HMG analog.

You're right, though it probably belongs somewhere in-between LMG and MMG. I'd say the RT-97 and T-21 are more analogous to LMGs whereas the DLT-19 is primarily an infantry weapon like the others, but the range and impact are that of a heavier option.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

The DLT-19 is definitely intended to more like a sniper rifle in legion. thats why it only throws out 2 dice. Not 4+ dice like the actual light repeater weapons. The T-21 and RT-97 are filling the role of light machine guns not the DLT-19.

and seeing as how the imperial sniper strike teams use the DLT-19 I dont know how you can refute that. If snipers are using the DLT-19 as a sniper rifle that means its a sniper rifle. Moreso than any of the other guns.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/DLT-19_heavy_blaster_rifle

"It featured a high rate of fire and could deal heavy damage at long ranges, and was most commonly used for pinning down troops and eliminating large groups of enemies."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/DLT-19x_targeting_blaster

"Unlike the DLT-19, the DLT-19x released all of its power in one shot before it would need to cool down."

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

the DLT-19 can definitely be configured for different roles.

But in legion faster firing guns usually throw out more dice

like the rotary barrel guns throw out 6 dice

the repeaters throw out 4 dice

the sniper rifles and semiautomatics throw out 2 dice

Some "semi-automatic" (which isn't really a term that applies here anyway) also only throw one die, so your analysis doesn't really hold.

The DLT-19 as it started in the game is more akin to a simple anti-tank rifle whose power later got more refined for an anti-personnel role.

19 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Some "semi-automatic" (which isn't really a term that applies here anyway) also only throw one die, so your analysis doesn't really hold.

i was talking about heavy weapons though, theyre usually at least 2 dice

usually only the basic trooper weapons are 1 die like your basic blaster rifle or blaster pistol

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

i was talking about heavy weapons though, theyre usually at least 2 dice

usually only the basic trooper weapons are 1 die like your basic blaster rifle or blaster pistol

BLaster pistols are 2-3 dice.

on characters theyre 2-3 dice. on troopers theyre usually 1-2 dice. which I dont at all agree with. it makes no sense for a scout trooper pistol to do so much more damage than a stormtrooper blaster rifle (2 black vs 1 white with surge to hit, really?). its goofy. some of the weapons are totally inconsistent in this game.

but thats going off on a tangent. what I was talking about was differentiating the stormtrooper heavy weapons better so theres actually a reason to use each one.

right now the DLT-19 is hands down better than every other option. And that is a problem.

Specifically the HH-12 and T-21 need to be buffed. And the DLT-19 should be changed so its role doesnt overlap as much with the HH-12s. the DLT-19 having impact often makes it better than the HH-12 in the anti-vehicle role. So impact on the DLT should be changed to something else.

There should be a reason to use each of the four heavy weapons and right now theres not.