On 8/18/2020 at 10:50 PM, Sekac said:

Incorrect. Read the thread, the difference has been explained.

I saw those posts a mechanically it would have the same outcome just requiring people to get new dice to use the new units with black saves.

A new dice which has the same blocks as an old dice with a surge doesn't add any variety. Yes you could have something that was 2 blocks with a surge and the unit gets surge tolkens to get the same saves as a red but that's not really smart design space. They would be better releasing a defensive token or a skill to make dodges easier to obtain for that unit. Not release a new color dice that people then need to obtain.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or malicious in this (sadly forum posts don't carry tone). I understand the discussion here and it's a good debate to have and explore. This is just my view on it and everyone is equally entitled to theirs.

2 hours ago, Tris87TJ said:

A new dice which has the same blocks as an old dice with a surge doesn't add any variety. Yes you could have something that was 2 blocks with a surge and the unit gets surge tolkens to get the same saves as a red but that's not really smart design space.

It doesn't have the same blocks as any existing dice, as this thread has made abundantly clear.

Think of it this way, you're an FFG rules developer. Say you wanted something that's potentially a little tougher than white dice with surge built in, but not as tough as red dice.

Currently, there's absolutely nothing you could do to capture that range of defense. That design space doesn't exist.

You're saying it's stupid to add that design space. Can you explain why?

On 8/22/2020 at 1:08 AM, Sekac said:

It doesn't have the same blocks as any existing dice, as this thread has made abundantly clear.

Think of it this way, you're an FFG rules developer. Say you wanted something that's potentially a little tougher than white dice with surge built in, but not as tough as red dice.

Currently, there's absolutely nothing you could do to capture that range of defense. That design space doesn't exist.

You're saying it's stupid to add that design space. Can you explain why?

Sure there is, armor X. They still also have the space to generate new keyword or adapt the unit card to show surge or dice results = multiple results.

4 hours ago, Ralgon said:

Sure there is, armor X. They still also have the space to generate new keyword or adapt the unit card to show surge or dice results = multiple results.

There's also Uncanny Luck, Danger sense, etc. It's really weird, this guy seems to not realize there are keywords in this game that can do a much better job at what he's talking about.

There's a million things they could do. I don't think it's quite fair to say that adding black defense dice would add nothing . At the same time, the more I think about it the more I think it wouldn't add enough to justify the risk of alienating players by making them buy more dice.

In the realm of things they could add: Improvised Defense X - When this unit is about to roll white defense dice, you may spend up to X surge token to replace X of those dice with red defense dice.

@GooeyChewie I think an added caveat of treating Surge results as blanks on those red die would be necessary though, or else that's a massive boost to defense on a unit with white+surge's defense.

7 hours ago, Ralgon said:

Sure there is, armor X. They still also have the space to generate new keyword or adapt the unit card to show surge or dice results = multiple results.

What? No... that isn't how armor works. See with dice, you roll them and sometimes they block things and sometimes they don’t. Red dice, white dice, and even the hypothetical black dice can blank out and you block nothing.

Armor doesn't work that way.

1 hour ago, GooeyChewie said:

In the realm of things they could add: Improvised Defense X - When this unit is about to roll white defense dice, you may spend up to X surge token to replace X of those dice with red defense dice.

Or maybe just ignore the surge part and just have that key word straight up swap in red for white dice. If it’s 1 or 2 it will be more effective on smaller hit pools, but less so on the larger one’s. There is so much design space to play with that addition dice types are not needed.

5 minutes ago, Mokoshkana said:

Or maybe just ignore the surge part and just have that key word straight up swap in red for white dice. If it’s 1 or 2 it will be more effective on smaller hit pools, but less so on the larger one’s. There is so much design space to play with that addition dice types are not needed.

Also, none of the suggestions above are needed . Nothing extra is needed. Nobody is talking about what the game needs . They could include the many suggestions or they could include black dice.

Nobody has made a good argument for why they shouldn't include black dice.

"They could do other stuff instead" is not a good argument. Because while it is true, it's also equally true of every alternate suggestion.

The fact of the matter is black dice would add something to the game if they wanted to add them.

Thats all I'm saying. The "not black dice! ANYTHING but black dice!" response is weird to me.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Nobody has made a good argument for why they shouldn't include black dice.

I disagree. The black defense dice would be another product players would have to buy. Players might even see it as a money grab on FFG’s part. The benefit they’d add to the game needs to outweigh that drawback. You’re right that “they could do other stuff” isn’t a sufficient argument. “They could achieve a similar effect without the big obvious drawback” is .

Also, then for a similar effect on attack dice there needs to be two additional colors added, at which point just do away with the specialty dice entirely, and just go to a target number design. This forfeits the ease of the symbol design though, for minimal benefit for the players.

Honestly the argument that players have to go out and buy the dice isn’t the big of a deal. Include 3 or 6 of the black dice with the new unit that needs it and you have completely negated that argument.
Now that said I don’t see a reason for a black defense die as a standard type of defense die. White no surge is a 6 up save, white with surge is 5+, red no surge is 4+, red with surge is 3+ save. Where does a black die fit in this?

1 hour ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Now that said I don’t see a reason for a black defense die as a standard type of defense die. White no surge is a 6 up save, white with surge is 5+, red no surge is 4+, red with surge is 3+ save. Where does a black die fit in this?

This has been explained many times, but here we go again.

Let me preface this by saying I 100% don't think this is needed, or even something I think FFG should do. But the breakdown is as follows:

White/No Surge: 6+, 5+ with Surge tokens

White/Surge: 5+, 5+ with Surge Tokens

Black/No Surge: 5+, 4+ with Surge Tokens

Black/Surge: 4+, 4+ with Surge Tokens

Red/No Surge: 4+, 3+ with Surge Tokens

Red/Surge: 3+, 3+ with Surge Tokens

Black/No Surge is a White/Surge defense that can be improved with Surge Tokens. Black/Surge is a Red/No Surge defense than can't be improved with Surge Tokens.

6 hours ago, Sekac said:

What? No... that isn't how armor works. See with dice, you roll them and sometimes they block things and sometimes they don’t. Red dice, white dice, and even the hypothetical black dice can blank out and you block nothing.

Armor doesn't work that way.

And yet it still achieves the same goal, a unit with armor 1 + white is better than pure white, yet gets progressively worse the more dice you throw at the unit.

1 hour ago, Ralgon said:

And yet it still achieves the same goal, a unit with armor 1 + white is better than pure white, yet gets progressively worse the more dice you throw at the unit.

No, it doesn't. Red dice can equal 0 blocks. 1=/=0, so no. Very obviously not the same effect. Dice is a variance based mechanic. Armor is exactly the opposite.

6 hours ago, GooeyChewie said:

I disagree. The black defense dice would be another product players would have to buy. Players might even see it as a money grab on FFG’s part. The benefit they’d add to the game needs to outweigh that drawback. You’re right that “they could do other stuff” isn’t a sufficient argument. “They could achieve a similar effect without the big obvious drawback” is .

I mean, yeah, I'd prefer to get free things from FFG too. But since none of the other suggestions presented will be offered in free packs either, I'm not sure how relevant that observation is.

As @Shadowhawk252 points out, they could include them with whatever unit introduced them. Also, they can start including them in the dice packs they already sell.

6 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Also, then for a similar effect on attack dice there needs to be two additional colors added, at which point just do away with the specialty dice entirely, and just go to a target number design. This forfeits the ease of the symbol design though, for minimal benefit for the players.

The similar effect is mixing pools of different colors of attack dice. They added that day 1.

You know what.

I'm just gonna say it.

Black Defense Dice are completely unneeded. It's just excessive to build an entirely new level of defense based around 1 token that some units can sometimes get.

The dice already perfectly correspond to simple armor saves. Lochlan already did the run down, but he added the black die in.

6+ save = white no surge.
5+ save = white w/ surge.
4+ save = red no surge.
3+ save = red with surge.

Any unit that wants a black die (2 def + surge) is better served by a DODGE token than a Surge token.

We Do Not Need Black Defense Die.

3 hours ago, Sekac said:

The similar effect is mixing pools of different colors of attack dice. They added that day 1.

Except that's not similar at all. The stated goal here by the advocates for an additional defense die is to have a die with that provides a standard defense save that is a 5+, 4+ with Surge conversion.
The attack dice breakdown is as follows (a result of an "8" is a crit):
7+ = white die
6+ = white die w/ Surge
5+ = black die
4+ = black die w/ Surge
3+ = red die
2+ = red die w/Surge

There is no attack die that hits on a 6+, 5+ with Surge, nor one for 4+, 3+ with Surge.

If "mixing pools of different colors of attack dice" is a similar effect, then spending a Surge token to convert white defensive dice to red die with no Surge is also a "similar effect" meaning additional colors of defense die are not necessary at all in the game.

Black defense die might be a viable option, if there was a way to gain surge tokens outside of one command upgrade. If there was an action or unit ability that could reliably generate surge tokens for units then this would be worth discussing. As it stands the only faction the black defense die benefits are rebels and they only have aggressive tactics to generate the tokens, as well as being highly competitive already with the other factions and not needing a significant buff.

3 hours ago, Shadowhawk252 said:

Black defense die might be a viable option, if there was a way to gain surge tokens outside of one command upgrade. If there was an action or unit ability that could reliably generate surge tokens for units then this would be worth discussing. As it stands the only faction the black defense die benefits are rebels and they only have aggressive tactics to generate the tokens, as well as being highly competitive already with the other factions and not needing a significant buff.

There is - Reliable X.

Well, not to mention how fundamentally flawed of an argument it is to say we can't add a new mechanic because of the upgrades that currently exist.

Currently, nobody benefits from black dice. If they added them, then the unit(s) that have them would benefit from them. Why that's assumed to only be rebels is odd. If a CIS unit was the first to get black defense dice, then rebels would be the only army that benefits?

Also, if we're talking about a new mechanic being introduced, the assumption that there's no possible way FFG would expand the ways to get surge tokens on that unit is silly.

They could introduce both black dice, and a new upgrade or special rule at the same time.

7 hours ago, Sekac said:

Yes you're absolutely right, paying a surge to convert a single white die into a single red is basically the exact same thing as all the near infinite permutations of attack pools that currently exist without having to spend a surge token.

Not only are those clearly, extremely different things, but the notion that if you can describe 2 things as "similar effect" that proves that one of those things is unnecessary, is ridiculous. Especially considering you're talking about offensive and defensive mechanics. Pierce (1) is a "similar effect" to Armor (1) therefore one of those should be removed from the game. Right? There could be absoultely no other conclusion.

You are the one who made the apparent claim that additional colors of attack die are a similar effect of mixing different color of attack dice, and therefore unnecessary, as shown in the following quote:

13 hours ago, Sekac said:

20 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Also, then for a similar effect on attack dice there needs to be two additional colors added, at which point just do away with the specialty dice entirely, and just go to a target number design. This forfeits the ease of the symbol design though, for minimal benefit for the players.

The similar effect is mixing pools of different colors of attack dice. They added that day 1.

Despite the "near infinite" permutations of attack pools there is no way to create a unit that has a weapon with a single attack die that hits on a 4+ and surges to a 3+. The more die added to an attack pool, the higher the number of potential hits. So while that average number of hits can be replicated, it comes at the cost of changing the upper limit of the number of hits and the odds of getting a minimum number of hits equal to the number of red die in the pool.

8 hours ago, Sekac said:

Secondly, for the 57th time, absolutely nobody is saying they're necessary. It's a nonsense point. Every single suggestion and post in this entire thread--yours, mine, everyone else's, are 100% absolutely completely unnecessary. It is not necessary for the game to add any mechanic ever again .

We are discussing the value of black dice IF they went that route.

There very obviously is value. That has been made clear. Adding them is unnecessary, that has been clear for the entirety of this thread. Other options are also possible. Those other options are also unnecessary.

All I can say is if I were a new player, I'd much prefer to have a black cube drawn on my card, than a paragraph of much more complicated interactions that exist for no purpose other than to stop a 3rd defense die from existing at all costs .

I'm absolutely sure you'd feel exactly the same way if you were new to the game.

In no way was I implying that you or anyone else said that black dice were necessary for the game. What I said was they are not necessary to add a very similar effect, which is a thing people have claimed.

If I were I new player, I wouldn't care if there was an extra color of die or if there was another paragraph added to the game. Nearly every unit released adds a paragraph of interactions of various complexities, many of which serve no purpose other than to continue using FFG's proprietary dice and measuring tools .

3 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Despite the "near infinite" permutations of attack pools there is no way to create a unit that has a weapon with a single attack die that hits on a 4+ and surges to a 3+. The more die added to an attack pool, the higher the number of potential hits. So while that average number of hits can be replicated, it comes at the cost of changing the upper limit of the number of hits and the odds of getting a minimum number of hits equal to the number of red die in the pool.

Your ability to consistently miss the point is truly baffling.

Black dice would create a unit that has a baseline defense of surged white dice with the circumstantial possibility to be just about as good as red dice. It could end up producing the same number blocks as a red, but is not likely to.

Just like an attack pool of say 2 black, 1 white creates pool that is not quite as good as 3 black dice. It could produce the same number of hits as 3 black dice but is not likely to.

You see how those are very, very similar things? It creates a range of variance that is better than one pool of dice but not as mathematically reliable as another pool of dice.

You certainly wouldn't argue that either of those things is more similar to a spend a surge to convert a die mechanic than they are to eachother. That would be absurd.

8 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

In no way was I implying that you or anyone else said that black dice were necessary for the game.

10 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

If "mixing pools of different colors of attack dice" is a similar effect, then spending a Surge token to convert white defensive dice to red die with no Surge is also a "similar effect" meaning additional colors of defense die are not necessary at all in the game.

Yes, you certainly never implied that we were saying it's necessary, you declared it outright. I was taking issue with declaring it outright, which you did.

3 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Your ability to consistently miss the point is truly baffling.

Black dice would create a unit that has a baseline defense of surged white dice with the circumstantial possibility to be just about as good as red dice. It could end up producing the same number blocks as a red, but is not likely to.

Just like an attack pool of say 2 black, 1 white creates pool that is not quite as good as 3 black dice. It could produce the same number of hits as 3 black dice but is not likely to.

You see how those are very, very similar things? It creates a range of variance that is better than one pool of dice but not as mathematically reliable as another pool of dice.

You certainly wouldn't argue that either of those things is more similar to a spend a surge to convert a die mechanic than they are to eachother. That would be absurd.

And a unit with White surge defense and keywords can ALSO produce the same number of blocks are red dice, but is not likely to. Keywords like a white die version of "Impervious" or Uncanny Luck can improve the defence of a unit, potentially producing the same number of blocks as if the unit had red defence die.
Surge tokens do not affect the average result. It improves the minimum potential number of blocks, but it does not change the statistics of the entire pool.
Spending a surge token to change dice to the next "tier" has a very similar effect to increasing the odds of getting a number of blocks equal to the number of Surge tokens on the unit.

3 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Yes, you certainly never implied that we were saying it's necessary, you declared it outright. I was taking issue with declaring it outright, which you did.

I do not see in the quoted section where I said that anyone said it was necessary. Saying something is unnecessary does not mean that someone else said it was.

15 hours ago, Sekac said:

I mean, yeah, I'd prefer to get free things from FFG too. But since none of the other suggestions presented will be offered in free packs either, I'm not sure how relevant that observation is.

As @Shadowhawk252 points out, they could include them with whatever unit introduced them. Also, they can start including them in the dice packs they already sell.

Who said anything about free things? Of course players would have to pay for new units. Those units would cost more if they involve also paying for new dice, either directly with included dice or indirectly because the player would need to buy an additional product.

Including the dice with the unit comes with its own problems. Any further units which also use black defense dice would either have to also include them (meaning players who bought both overpaid for no additional benefit) or would require players to buy the original unit (meaning players who care about this unit but not the original overpaid for no additional benefit). FFG could get around that problem by having a version of the unit with dice and a version without, along with a separate product for those who wish to buy the dice later. But then they are creating a bunch of new SKUs and probably making production significantly more difficult.

There's no ideal way to distribute the proposed defense dice. The question FFG faces is, would the game-play advantages of the proposed dice and the potential revenue from selling the proposed dice outweigh the logistical issues and potential negative player response to having to spend more money inherent with adding the proposed new dice. Personally, given how slight the game-play advantages would be, I think the answer is no. That said, I've got no inside information, and I'm not the one facing the question, so maybe they'll make black defense dice. I just won't be telling them that they should.

1 hour ago, GooeyChewie said:

Who said anything about free things? Of course players would have to pay for new units. Those units would cost more if they involve also paying for new dice, either directly with included dice or indirectly because the player would need to buy an additional product.

Why would someone buy a unit just to get black defense dice? If none of your units use them, then buying a unit you don’t need to get something you can't use would be stupid.

FFG can't force people not to be stupid.