Wondering what thoughts there are on bringing black defense dice into the game?

They would offer a nice “in-between” die on defense and open up more design space for units.

Maybe a black die with two blocks, a surge and three blanks? Or two blocks, two surge and two blanks?

Thoughts?

2 Shields, 1 Surge, 3 Blanks would be the progression I think.

But, curveball, 2 Surges?!? That would be cool.

Edit:

Thinking further on this, a Black Defence die with 2 Shields, 2 Surges, 2 Blanks means that a unit with a Black Defence Die and Surge Defence has the same defence as a unit with a Red Defence Die with Surge Defence. A unit with a Black Defence Die and without Surge Defence has the same defence as a unit with a White Defence Die with Surge Defence.

Given that, 2 Shields, 1 Surge, 3 Blanks would be my play.

I wouldn't expect to see any of this until a 2.0

15 minutes ago, Crawfskeezen said:

2 Shields, 1 Surge, 3 Blanks would be the progression i think.

But, curveball, 2 Surges?!? That would be cool.

The standard progression wouldn't open up that much design space. A unit with built-in surge would be the same odds as a red dice without surge. A unit without surge would be the same odds as a white die with surge.

Having a defense die with extra surges would definitely allow for some interesting surge interactions.

This question has been asked many times, always by people who don't actually know what's on the die faces of the white and red defense dice (or perhaps don't know how surges work). If they knew, then they would also know there is no "in between."

What I would actually like to see is a a way for surge tokens to interact with units that already convert surge, or at least a mechanic or ability that benefits units that already convert surges, allowing them to improve their defense. The rebels in particular are stuck at very crappy defense, and no amount of surge tokens can help this. Meanwhile, we rebel players have to watch the clones and droids eat up surge tokens like candy, and imperial shoretroopers follow suit. Unfortunately, nimble is not a sufficient defensive boost as it will not allow you to dodge the dang crits, and demands that you take a dodge action every round.

I guess all I am saying is that as a rebel player (many units already surge on defense, offense, or both) there aren't as many good uses for surge tokens, and this is particularly a problem on defense, where other factions essentially double their defensive value (droids), or end up with twice YOUR defensive value (stormies and clones comapred to rebel troopers).

#Feelsbadman

12 minutes ago, arnoldrew said:

If they knew, then they would also know there is no "in between."

Well, sure there is. It's 2 blocks and a surge. 1 more shield than a white die, one less than a red die, definitely fits the description of "in between". It just doesn't open up much design space.

Whether or not that's a valuable addition to the game is the question. I dont think it's a need, but I don't think it would cause any harm either.

But no, you don't have to be ignorant of dice to wonder whether it's needed.

Considering that now everybody has at least some access to surge tokens with Aggressive tactics, a black dice would usually be the same as a white with surge, except that it can be turned into a "red dice without surge" if you have surge tokens.

42 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Well, sure there is. It's 2 blocks and a surge. 1 more shield than a white die, one less than a red die, definitely fits the description of "in between". It just doesn't open up much design space.

Whether or not that's a valuable addition to the game is the question. I dont think it's a need, but I don't think it would cause any harm either.

But no, you don't have to be ignorant of dice to wonder whether it's needed.

Before surge tokens, there was actually no middle ground. 2 blocks = White + Surge. 2 Blocks + Surge = Red without Surge.

But, now that we have surge tokens, 2 Blocks/1 Surge/3 Blanks would essentially be White+Surge defense that could also benefit from surge tokens (assuming it wasn't on a unit that natively surged, because that would just be Red defense).

12 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

Before surge tokens, there was actually no middle ground. 2 blocks = White + Surge. 2 Blocks + Surge = Red without Surge.

But, now that we have surge tokens, 2 Blocks/1 Surge/3 Blanks would essentially be White+Surge defense that could also benefit from surge tokens (assuming it wasn't on a unit that natively surged, because that would just be Red defense).

It would be red defense that doesn't benefit from surge tokens . Basically, if they had built-in surges on black dice, that unit would be almost as good as red dice, they just wouldn't further benefit from surge tokens defensively. It would free up surge for offense for a nice fairly tough unit that isn't token hungry.

2 minutes ago, Sekac said:

It would be red defense that doesn't benefit from surge tokens . Basically, if they had built-in surges on black dice, that unit would be almost as good as red dice, they just wouldn't further benefit from surge tokens defensively. It would free up surge for offense for a nice fairly tough unit that isn't token hungry.

That's a good point. It's a subtle difference to be sure, but it's a difference that will only get bigger as we get more things that hand out surge tokens.

Should we consider defense dices with multiples blocks/surges in their sides?

17 minutes ago, Dalae said:

Should we consider defense dices with multiples blocks/surges in their sides?

That’s a good point. We have double hits on one die face in Armada.

38 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

That's a good point. It's a subtle difference to be sure, but it's a difference that will only get bigger as we get more things that hand out surge tokens.

Yep, that's why when I've considered it in the past, I dismissed it pretty quickly. The more I think about it, the more it might be a worthwhile cranny to explore as it gets harder to design unique units.

Surge - block + white and red without surge was enough when the game was designed. However with surge tokens in the game now a black die could be "capped" at 3 blocks with surge, something that red dice is not, since you can gain surge tokens. I don't know if it will add more than that.

We could have a "wilder" dice with double block or double surge and there is room for some special dice to come later, but that will be hard to intergate now in the game, it dosen't really meld with ffg's business model.

Yeah seems like the kind of thing that might get changed between editions but wouldn't be added midstream.

21 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Yeah seems like the kind of thing that might get changed between editions but wouldn't be added midstream.

Interesting point to bring up since FFG has now updated X-Wing and Armada. So, Legion can’t be far behind.

I just don't think it's anywhere close to needing an edition change, but you never know. I sure hope it isn't coming soon, I'm interested in playing more Legion after what a disaster the launch of 9th edition 40k is turning into.

Be my happy place, Legion!

5 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I just don't think it's anywhere close to needing an edition change, but you never know. I sure hope it isn't coming soon, I'm interested in playing more Legion after what a disaster the launch of 9th edition 40k is turning into.

Be my happy place, Legion!

Not sure we’ll necessarily see an editin change. With the X-Wing edition change we got standard card sized upgrade cards. It was just announced that Armada is getting errata reprinted and all upgrade cards are going to regular size. So, that leaves Legion as the only game with mini-American upgrade cards.

Skirmish cards haven’t been printed yet either so I’m expecting a card print soon.

a white defense die with defensive surge would be exactly the same thing as a black defense dice

And red defense die without a surge would be exactly the same thing a black defense dice with surge

So there is absolutely no reason to ever add a black defense dice. which is precisely why it doesnt exist and will never exist.

However adding a non-traditional defense die that has multiple surge faces (something like surge, surge, surge, blank, blank, blank) could make for a more interesting game and add a better outlet for spending surge tokens. Because sometimes it can be hard to spend surge tokens with surge only coming up 1 in 6 times on the white and red defense dice.

A new defense die with multiple surge faces could also have interesting interaction with abilities like deflect.

There was no reason to add black defense dice, until surge tokens introduced the concept of surges sometimes triggering and sometimes not triggering. With surge tokens, we now have...

White w/o surge to block - 1 success, 1 dependent on surge token

White w/ surge to block - 2 successes, no benefit from surge tokens

Red w/o surge to block - 3 successes, 1 dependent on surge token

Red w/ surge to block - 4 successes, no benefit from surge tokens

...and that gives us room to add...

Black w/o surge to block - 2 success, 1 depends on surge token

Black w/ surge to block - 3 successes, no benefit from surge tokens

EDIT:

Is that enough to justify adding the die? I'm not sure. It probably depends more on what FFG thinks makes financial sense. They might like the idea of selling more dice, but at the same time they might think players would balk at the idea of needing to buy more dice. If the dice were sold as a separate product players might complain about needing to buy an additional product just to use certain units. On the other hand if the dice came in a unit box, players might complain that they need to buy that unit to make use of other units down the road with the same die.

The dice are fine as are. That said, here’s a hot take:

having both the attack and defense mechanics use dice to determine results is super abstract and negatively effects the stability of the game overall. Dice inherently work on averages over samples taken. Having multiple points in the attack system that require extremely high numbers to average out creates imbalance at the individual rolls. They should abandon defense dice, develop defense tokens similar to other games they’ve developed.

Inb4 the collective crowd shout I’m going to take from the “the game is fine” crowd.

It’s my opinion, you won’t change my mind.

Defense rolls slow the game down.

Just replace dice with armour/defense points of some kind.

3 hours ago, Khobai said:

A white defense die with defensive surge would be exactly the same thing as a black defense dice

And red defense die without a surge would be exactly the same thing a black defense dice with surge

So there is absolutely no reason to ever add a black defense dice. which is precisely why it doesnt exist and will never exist.

You are not wrong on your math, but your conclusion is incorrect. Read the thread and you'll see why.

You're forgetting this is a situational game with granularity. Sometimes you have a surge token, sometimes you don't. If you have defensive surge built-in, then you are able to use them for offense.

You are correct mathematically that white dice with built in surge is same same what black dice would be. And that black dice with surge would be the same as red dice without.

But a unit that could oscillate between white dice with surge, and red dice without currently does not exist. That's why there is very clearly is a reason to add black defense dice, whether or not they do it.

adding an entirely new black defense die to the game on the basis that you might sometimes have a surge token is completely ridiculous.

especially when the number of units that would use a black defense die would be entirely limited to new releases since all the existing units already use either white or red.

again if a new die is added to the game I would rather it actually add some interesting new element to the game rather than just be more of the exact same thing we already have. the idea of a black defense die as presented is quite frankly uninspired.

12 minutes ago, Khobai said:

adding an entirely new black defense die to the game on the basis that you might sometimes have a surge token is completely ridiculous.

You're still not understanding. Just read the thread.