So if I was Range 0 of an enemy Hound’s Tooth with my Z95.... could I dock in the system phase? Assuming he didn’t have one docked already?

😂

So uhh... The Docking rules don't make any reference to 'Friendly' being a requirement... Huh...

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I mean... This would apply to the Scum Falcon & Escape Craft... Heck, I think you can even choose to start boarded if say, someone took Hounds' Tooth but didn't have a ship docked at setup, same with Lando's Falcon...

1 hour ago, Innese said:

I mean... This would apply to the Scum Falcon & Escape Craft...

Also the Ghost and its counterparts...

1 hour ago, Innese said:

Heck, I think you can even choose to start boarded if say, someone took Hounds' Tooth but didn't have a ship docked at setup, same with Lando's Falcon...

Here's the applicable line from Rules Reference (v1.1.0) p11 defining setting up with a docked ship:

" Ships capable of docking can start the game docked. Before the Place Forces step of setup, that player must declare which ships are docked and the ships they are docked to. "

Combine that with 'first player resolves first during timing conflicts' and you could even reason that you could take first player and deny your opponent from starting docked by putting your ship there before theirs!

I think it's terribly ironic that in the Hondo thread it's been brought up that the rules have to be bent against either Jam or Coordinate for him to work at all because the rules writers thought it necessary to define jam explicitly for enemies and coordinate explicitly for friendlies, even though there has previously had been no good reason for those restrictions. If they didn't restrict coordinate to friendlies no one would ever have considered using standard coordinate to give an enemy an action, or conversly to jam a friendly. (Outside of just-for-giggles)

On the other hand they thought docking didn't need that friendly restriction so we have this loophole where you can block an opponent from docking by putting your own ship in there first. This is a potentially feasible (if dirty) strategy since you could, as first player, put your Lando EsC on an enemy scum Falcon to force them to start with their auto drone undocked so it is more likely to explode before reaching range. Then later you can pop out and block the falcon in a key moment to cost them position+action.

I don't expect a ruling on this, but I'm definitely making a submission to the Official Rules Question form.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

Here's what I whipped up for the rules question submission. Please consider submitting a similar (or copy-paste) question to encourage FFG to tighten up or acknowledge this loophole.

Question:

I cannot find anything in the rules (looking in the sections for Dock, Setup, and Huge Ships) preventing me from docking my ships to an enemy that has the ability to carry docked ships. Can I prevent an enemy ship from docking by filling the docking capacity on their carrier ship? If I am player 1 and take precedence during setup, can I fill the Dock spaces on an enemy carrier ship?

While going through the rules one more time I had a thought about the implication this has on huge ships! If one fielded a squad of RZ-2s with Proton Rockets and Pattern Analyzer they could take player 1 to dock the enemy huge ship full (already bad enough to ruin a carrier strategy) then in the mid game deploy the A-wings at init 1 as alpha blockers (further messing up enemy positioning) and using red turnaround maneuvers+PA line up the ordnance to deal serious damage to the carrier ship!

I don't see any other generics that could abuse this hypothetical quite so badly, and named pilots are likely too pricy to be worth the tactic. Still, even just unmodded 3-4 dice attacks times 4 deployed ships could well be the death blow for a Gozanti.

This is hilarious, tho obviously unintended.....

I now know how the “BB8 has a white boost” guy felt.... exhilarated!!! 🤣 🤣

Altho, now I’m all like:

Question: Which ship is the one doing the docking or the undocking... the carrier ship, or the carried ship?

23 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Question: Which ship is the one doing the docking or the undocking... the carrier ship, or the carried ship?

Or does that change depending... 🤷‍♂️ 🤷‍♂️

Let's just get one thing straight:

This is a choice. We have rules which aren't clear. We can make a choice that things work, or we can make a choice that things break. That's on y'all.

No one here gets to pretend they aren't actively making a decision. Can't wash your hands of agency.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

the rules have to be bent against either Jam or Coordinate for him to work at all because the rules writers thought it necessary to define jam explicitly for enemies and coordinate explicitly for friendlies, even though there has previously had been no good reason for those restrictions.

I've got two critiques of that.

First is the "I think Hondo's selection process replaces the normal steps" I've said in the Hondo thread. Anyhow, moving on.

Second, there's a very good reason the default text doesn't allow coordination of enemies or jamming of friendies: because you could get totally hosed by the failure rules.

Key points is that you can't intentionally fail an action if there's a legal target. Imagine there's no restriction on jamming friendly ships, just like there's no restriction on locking Friendly ships or stray obstacles like Asteroids. The Lock rules essentially mean that, practically speaking, you'll never fail a lock. If that applied to Jam, and you attempted to jam an enemy, but couldn't find one, but there was a friendly ship, you'd be forced to jam it, because you can't ever intentionally fail an action. Same with coordinate. Without the standard selection restrictions, if you tried to coordinate a friend, found them out of range, but there'd an enemy ship in range, they'd be able to get a bonus action, since you couldn't intentionally fail the action, and you'd have to coordinate them.

25 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Question: Which ship is the one doing the docking or the undocking... the carrier ship, or the carried ship?

There's a case to be made that it'd necessarily have to be mutual, both ships are docking. If so, then this essentially just disappears.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Let's just get one thing straight:

This is a choice. We have rules which aren't clear. We can make a choice that things work, or we can make a choice that things break. That's on y'all.

27 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's a case to be made that it'd necessarily have to be mutual, both ships are docking. If so, then this essentially just disappears.

Yeah.... Docking without mutual consent is.... frowned upon.

😜 😜

5 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

There's a case to be made that it'd necessarily have to be mutual, both ships are docking. If so, then this essentially just disappears.

Thank you for presenting a reasonable and serious response. I had actually forgotten about the potential downsides of hypothetical indescriminate jam/coordinate when I wrote that earlier. While I agree that the only reason to pursue this option in a game (even a just for giggles one) is to watch the world burn, as emerald put it, but that doesn't mean the game would be poorer for having that loose end tied up.

15 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Question: Which ship is the one doing the docking or the undocking... the carrier ship, or the carried ship?

The carried ship is the one docking or undocking, as both happen on its initiative.

Also, hate to break up this party but..

Quote

During the System Phase, a ship at range 0 of its carrier ship can dock with it and be placed in reserve.

I'm sure people will debate this, but i think its fair to say an enemy (or even an allied) Carrier ship is not "its" carrier ship. "Its" seems to denote control or ownership of in this case.

29 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I'm sure people will debate this, but i think its fair to say an enemy (or even an allied) Carrier ship is not "its" carrier ship. "Its" seems to denote control or ownership of in this case.

I'll take that challenge!

Hostile things can "belong" to a ship. If you lock my ship, while you control said lock, the red lock TOKEN is considered to be my ship's token, for any effect that checks if I have a red token (Outrider title), or if I were to pass one of my tokens off onto someone else (Holo). Along that same vein, despite the fact that my ship is attempting to maliciously dock to one of your (hostile) ships... you'd still be the carrier ship for my little parasite.

@Lyianx I pondered that “its” too..... But I think it only refers to an eligible ship to hold it.

I think this lacking “friendly” is just a silly loophole... That being said,

PARTY ON FFG RULES DEPLORABLES!!!