I learned 1.0 during Wave 11 using Advanced Sensors Whisper + Lone Wolf Empire Boba. Fast forward to 2.0 and the only variants of the archetype that I have played are things like Dash/Rorak, Boba/Fenn, Super Han, Super Vader, Super Ani, & Super Kylo Tavson primarily for the purposes of matchup testing. I usually have not gravitated towards running the archetype despite many reps playing against it. Its been so long since I played a Big Base Turret + Ace two ship archetype that I feel like I have largely forgotten the appeal.

• What do you enjoy most about 2 ship lists like Dash+ and Boba+? Excluding Theme.

From the vantage point of double Defenders, the tactical simplicity of well, lets divide, not die, and conquer, I guess. Every game.

From big base Scum view... Just... how much can I break the game...

I do very much enjoy shoving 2 big mean barges around. Stately yet intimidating.

But really, a 3rd ship, even at 30pt or less, makes things much more fun.

I almost exclusively played 2 ship lists in 1e, and have used them about 50% of the time in 2e. I think for me it's the simplicity of the list (few dials, generally similar strategy every game) but with fairly complex interactions on the ships themselves (usually lots of choices in movement/actions and at high initiative).

I also like having a ship that is so powerful it can rip through lots of chaff, that's really thematic for me. I was at a CAC event where I ended up with Kylo vs 6 vultures and pulled it out, but always felt one bad turn away from a loss. In our local store I often run Han and no matter how far behind I may be in a game, he can be so powerful I always feel I can come back.

With the context that I mostly fly lists with more than 2 ships... what I like about 2-ship lists when I fly them is that each ship is really powerful.

For example, let's just look at Republic.

• Five is Space Wizards, 5 CLT Jedi Knights. It's a fun list, really zippy, lots of blocking, high potential firepower.
• Four is kind of similar, but you've got named pilots now (but no higher than Obi), maybe Ric and or Broadside thrown in, but it can be built with just CLT Jedi. Everyone feels stronger, but you've lost a ship.
• Three ships has a few ways to do it.
  • CLT Ani/Obi/[Plo or Mace], and they've got all the toys. R2 Astromechs for Regen, some force talent tossed in. You've got the same list, but with ramped up power.
  • Alternately, you've got some 7B in there. 7B Ani and two cheaper Jedi, or 7B Obi and Mace, with Ric. Now it's not just a plussed-up A-Wing, you've got something really strong.
  • I guess this is actually my favorite level. Something like Fang Aces, or Triple Silencer, is just really fun to me. I'd rather fly 3 FOTP than Kylo/Blackout. Maybe 4 SJE will overtake them in early 2027 once I'm actually playing X-Wing again.
• Two ships is Supernatural Anakin. That's a potential power level over 9000. Any hope of having a well-rounded list is out the window, and now we're looking something which is very much an "all your eggs in one basket" situation. With that high power level, there's also a lot of risk. There's a bit of a thrill to pulling it off, if you're able.
  • Two ship lists often have some pilot who's hard to fly in a non-two-ship list. AdvS Guri. SNR Anakin or Kylo. Any sort of Dash whatsoever. They just eat up so much list space. Sure, you can fly with two partners, or maybe even more if they're really cheap, but if I'm flying a two-ship list because I like my heavy to be really heavy, well... I probably don't want to fill up on plain TIEs.
• Let's flip back to the other end of the scale. 8 Torrents. That's a legal list, and it could be worse. Lots of health to chew through. But no one feels strong. Nothing wrong with it, and I'm sure the list is going to satisfy a different kind of urge.

So those are the two poles. I can fly lots of weak stuff, or a little really strong stuff. Even flying three aces you'll usually have to compromise in some way.

//

Anyhow, just had a thought for fun list typing this up. CLT Anakin with Chopper, and 3 CLT Jedi Knights. Probably worse than 5 CLT, or worse than Fenn + Zealots, and possibly worse than even Poe + 3 BB Blues, but like... that's a nasty little Anakin.

I just liked Dash because the Outrider was my favorite model, and throwing 4 dice was fun.

I like being able to load our ships with all the bells and whistles to handle different types of opponents. I’ve had fun with Luke/Leia here recently. Luke with instinctive aim pro torps helps him deal with other aces and Leia with K2SO and the title usually gives her a force, calculate, and evade going into any engagement. Fairly survivable tank who can dish out damage. And missiles on her gives her three attack arcs. Having all those tools gives me a lot of freedom to move around the board how I need to based on the opponent’s list.

I don't particularly enjoy two ship myself. I like to have at least three ships on board, usually have four. Not huge on over six as a preference but it is fun to go full swarm.

With only two, I miss the redundancy and blocking and fire zones. I get kinda bored when both ships just have crazy individualistic abilities. Like, through most of first Ed my Dash was plus two Green Squads.

Forgot about double Firesprays. I like it because it's kinda easy to do all the things and be good enough.

Did you suffer through wave 4-8 inclusive (5 waves 2 years) of large base 360turret fat ship fortressing? That shht was irritating. Especially the large base turrets and the ace. Many times Miranda which was everything except large base. Including regen and turrets.

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

But really, a 3rd ship, even at 30pt or less, makes things much more fun.

This really reminds me that a fan of 2-ship lists is often not a fan of a solitary filler.

I think something going through my mind is that filler in an otherwise 2-ship list feels too... ignore-able. I'd rather have Boba/Koshka than Boba/Koshka/Seevor. Bring it up to an otherwise three-ship list, and I like the filler again. Seevor with Ketsu/Serissu/Talonbane should be pretty sweet.

At least for me, I want my filler to have... critical mass. There's gotta be enough of it, then it's good. Too little and I don't see the point.

26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

This really reminds me that a fan of 2-ship lists is often not a fan of a solitary filler.

I think something going through my mind is that filler in an otherwise 2-ship list feels too... ignore-able. I'd rather have Boba/Koshka than Boba/Koshka/Seevor. Bring it up to an otherwise three-ship list, and I like the filler again. Seevor with Ketsu/Serissu/Talonbane should be pretty sweet.

At least for me, I want my filler to have... critical mass. There's gotta be enough of it, then it's good. Too little and I don't see the point.

There is the view that it's just giving away points, a lot of the time.

But critical mass can often be achieved with a well placed fly in the ointment. I think it's no less effective, just less dependable.

The fly is often the juiciest bit. I mean, you do need to like the taste of fly.

Not that I fully intended to lose the metaphor plot there at all, but still.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

There is the view that it's just giving away points, a lot of the time.

But critical mass can often be achieved with a well placed fly in the ointment. I think it's no less effective, just less dependable.

The fly is often the juiciest bit. I mean, you do need to like the taste of fly.

Not that I fully intended to lose the metaphor plot there at all, but still.

To be sure, nothing wrong with it. I just don't like it. Stray Academy Pilot or Wampa or Seevor just isn't someone thrilling to me.

I guess I just want a fly with a bit more meat on it's bones.

A while back... before January, I was the only person to show up at a FLGS for a small kit. The list I had packed was 2 Patrol Leaders with Hull Upgrade, one with Seventh Sister Crew, one with Fifth Brother Gunner, and a stray no-upgrades Duchess. Kind of a dare that I didn't think folks could kill me in time. Points probably don't really work out now, but plain Duchess was probably about as lean as I like as a filler in a 3 ship list. Oddball really strikes my fancy these days, with SynCon, to pester with missile some, then support the other ships in the list.

In a bigger list, all this stuff is great. I keep thinking about cobbling together a Scum list based on 6 nice little filler ships... Seevor and Bossk Z and some named scyks and stuff. Toolbox swarm, I guess.

In a smaller list... I dunno. At least for me. Not saying it's better to avoid cheap filler in this kind of list. Just I think there's a solid chance that's what motivates some two-ship players. Most 2-ship lists could easily be 3 with a filler, but it doesn't appeal to some folks. Maybe they'd do better changing their preferences, but seems possibly relevant by way of explanation.

2 ships is like a hammer and an anvil. Smash 'em. Running two powerful ships and working their synergies together is fun.

7 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

In a smaller list... I dunno. At least for me. Not saying it's better to avoid cheap filler in this kind of list. Just I think there's a solid chance that's what motivates some two-ship players. Most 2-ship lists could easily be 3 with a filler, but it doesn't appeal to some folks.

Oh I think, on the whole, it probably is better to avoid a 3rd cheap filler. Just giving points away with it is a valid view and it will happen in games.

2 ship lists are a lot about reliability, adding a 30pt 3rd might be, (in my view), more fun and a nice X factor that won't necessarily let you down in this game... or the next.... But it likely costs you at some point when a super shiny 2 ship list would not have.

I think 2 ship list are mostly in a good place, they can be pretty obnoxious when they're too reliable. Which is when bringing ship 3 in is a daft idea.

Being at the point where it doesn't hurt too much to add a silly 3rd, and can even be better at times, seems to me to be a sign that they're not gaining too much by doubling down on the ultra reliability of 2.

Emphasis on mostly, since 2 ship covers oh so many bases.

Two ships is simple to fly, especially over and over again.

I love Double Deci's just because I love seeing my opponent throw everything he has at a reinforced one, and I still come out of the engagement somehow ahead. Its simple easy, and probably the least variance prone list I've run. Its fun, engaging, and easy to fly. And as a bonus, it can win pretty often. Whats not to love?!

2 ships lists?

Quick setup and easy to carry.

Mainly just wanted to point out that Dash+ is no longer a two-ship list and if you're flying it as a two-ship list you're probably making a mistake.

5 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Mainly just wanted to point out that Dash+ is no longer a two-ship list and if you're flying it as a two-ship list you're probably making a mistake.

I like Dash and Luke, but you're probably right that a third ship is better than running them fat.